What did Christ say about the Law?

[Hobie]

Now the law is based on God's holy nature and as such scripture states are holy, just, and unchanging, and we see this in the Ten Commandments. But then you also have the ceremonial law which focused the people’s attention on God and gave the people signs that point to the coming Messiah, such as the Passover, and the sacrifices of the unblemished lamb by the priests. One was written with Gods own finger, and the other was from Moses.

Matthew 5:17-19
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

We see here that Jesus stated "Think not that I am come to destroy the law..but to fulfill", what did He mean? Now, since Jesus knew what laws His death would fulfill, would He be saying this about the Ten Commandments if He were going to fulfill them? So what was He fulfilling, it seems clear it was what pointed to Him, Moses’ ceremonial law which is evident if we see what Jesus said when asked.

Mark 12:28-31
28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Matthew 22:37-40
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The Ten Commandments are arranged in two groups, the first group of four commandments deal with our relationship to God, the second group of the fifth to the tenth commandments deal with our relationship to one another. When Jesus talks about 'not that I am come to destroy the law', it is obvious that it is the Ten Commandments Jesus is talking about. So did Jesus want to do away with the Ten Commandments or did He came to fulfill that which pointed to Him as the Lamb of God, the ceremonial law of Moses. We have to understand His purpose...

 

[Davy]

Your point should instead dwell on the differences between the old covenant, and The New Covenant.

What things must... be abolished that were per the old covenant in order for the New Covenant to be established instead. That should be the area of focus.

The reason I say the above, is because there are still things written in God's law that are outside the Ten Commandments, which are still in effect today. I speak especially of God's creation science laws that He made as part of His creation. The New Covenant did not change that part of God's law.

For example, one of God's laws is to not sow a garden with 'diverse' seeds, lest the fruit be defiled. In other words, when sowing tomatoes, you sow seeds for tomatoes, not a combined mix of different things all at once in the same spot. That's an example in God's law that is about His creation science. It's common sense today.

Various washings were required per God's law. In the middle ages, that wasn't followed by doctors. They would wash their hands in the same pan of dirty water when going to the next patient. When the disease was transferred, they started wondering about its cause. Then someone understood about the washings in God's law. Doctors then began to wash their hands under running water instead...

Lev 15:13
13 And when he that hath an issue is cleansed of his issue; then he shall number to himself seven days for his cleansing, and wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in running water, and shall be clean.
KJV

Today, most countries have running water to cleanse with.

I also recall in God's law that said for farmers to not reap the corners of their field, but leave it for the poor. When I was Spain, I noticed farmers still doing that practice, not reaping the corners of their fields. Crop rotation is another matter in God's law which involves creation science. God said to let the land rest at the seventh season, obviously so nutrients could go back into the soil. Today various fertilizer techniques are used, and rotating the type of crop. But a lot of farmers still let some fields rest, and let nutrients return naturally.

 

[Hobie]

Your point should instead dwell on the differences between the old covenant, and The New Covenant.

What things must... be abolished that were per the old covenant in order for the New Covenant to be established instead. That should be the area of focus.

The reason I say the above, is because there are still things written in God's law that are outside the Ten Commandments, which are still in effect today. I speak especially of God's creation science laws that He made as part of His creation. The New Covenant did not change that part of God's law.

For example, one of God's laws is to not sow a garden with 'diverse' seeds, lest the fruit be defiled. In other words, when sowing tomatoes, you sow seeds for tomatoes, not a combined mix of different things all at once in the same spot. That's an example in God's law that is about His creation science. It's common sense today.

Various washings were required per God's law. In the middle ages, that wasn't followed by doctors. They would wash their hands in the same pan of dirty water when going to the next patient. When the disease was transferred, they started wondering about its cause. Then someone understood about the washings in God's law. Doctors then began to wash their hands under running water instead...

Lev 15:13
13 And when he that hath an issue is cleansed of his issue; then he shall number to himself seven days for his cleansing, and wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in running water, and shall be clean.
KJV

Today, most countries have running water to cleanse with.

I also recall in God's law that said for farmers to not reap the corners of their field, but leave it for the poor. When I was Spain, I noticed farmers still doing that practice, not reaping the corners of their fields. Crop rotation is another matter in God's law which involves creation science. God said to let the land rest at the seventh season, obviously so nutrients could go back into the soil. Today various fertilizer techniques are used, and rotating the type of crop. But a lot of farmers still let some fields rest, and let nutrients return naturally.

Well lets go over the New Covenant and see how it compares. God created Adam and Eve in his image but in the fall they, along with all mankind, began the downward spiral of corruption. It came to the point at the time of Noah that God was sorry that He made man because their thoughts were now evil continually. But now God wants us to hear and obey Him as obedient children. Under the old covenant the Ten Commandments were given to understanding of Gods character, and guard against the wrong actions of man.

The ministry of stone, regarding the Ten Commandments, was meant to bring life but instead they brought death. Why is this? Because the curse of the law, which followed the law on stone because of sin.

Sin brings about the curse of death from the law. It's not the law that brings the death, but rather, the sin.

Under the New Covenant Jesus took the curse away when He became sin and died on the cross. He did not take the law away for the law is holy and good, He took away the curse for the sin.

The law brings liberty to mankind. Without the law this world would be in total chaos. Life without law brings destruction and bondage of all kinds of wickedness.

Once Jesus did away with the curse He freed us from the grip of the law, in other words, the law is no longer a threat to us who are in Christ. This frees us up to obey the law from our own free will because we love and appreciate what God has done for us through His Son. In this, God is writing the law on our hearts, in other words, we are not obeying the law out of fear of death or punishment, but rather, we are obeying from the heart because of love and gratitude, this is the New Covenant. God frees us from the grip of the law because of sin to allow us to freely obey the law because of love. In this, the law goes from stone to the heart.

Hebrews 8:10-13 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel: After those days,'' says the Lord, "I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. "None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying,`Know the Lord,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.'' In that He says, "A new covenant,'' He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

The Ten Commandments are the foundation of love for God and love for neighbor. The first four teaches us how to love God and the last six teaches us how to love others.

The Ten Commandment's are not to be a rigid law of bondage, but rather, the Spirit of God impresses us to live by them through love. Jesus brought this understanding to us in His life and in His teachings. He showed us that keeping the law for the sake of keeping the law was not what God was looking for. God is looking for a people to love Him and to love each other in which this love is manifested through keeping the law. In this, Jesus was magnifying the law and bringing honor to it.

Isaiah 42:1 "Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
Isaiah 42:21 The Lord is well pleased for His righteousness' sake; He will magnify the law and make it honorable.

 

[Arthur81]

Now the law is based on God's holy nature and as such scripture states are holy, just, and unchanging, and we see this in the Ten Commandments. But then you also have the ceremonial law which focused the people’s attention on God and gave the people signs that point to the coming Messiah, such as the Passover, and the sacrifices of the unblemished lamb by the priests. One was written with Gods own finger, and the other was from Moses.

Matthew 5:17-19
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

We see here that Jesus stated "Think not that I am come to destroy the law..but to fulfill", what did He mean? Now, since Jesus knew what laws His death would fulfill, would He be saying this about the Ten Commandments if He were going to fulfill them? So what was He fulfilling, it seems clear it was what pointed to Him, Moses’ ceremonial law which is evident if we see what Jesus said when asked.

Mark 12:28-31
28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Matthew 22:37-40
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The Ten Commandments are arranged in two groups, the first group of four commandments deal with our relationship to God, the second group of the fifth to the tenth commandments deal with our relationship to one another. When Jesus talks about 'not that I am come to destroy the law', it is obvious that it is the Ten Commandments Jesus is talking about. So did Jesus want to do away with the Ten Commandments or did He came to fulfill that which pointed to Him as the Lamb of God, the ceremonial law of Moses. We have to understand His purpose...

I am skeptical when men are so wordy in what appears to be a distortion of what the scriptures so clearly state:

"In speaking of 'a new covenant,' he has made the first one obsolete. And what is obsolete and growing old will soon disappear." (Heb 8:13 NRSV)
how is the Old Covenant mentioned in the OT?
"He was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten commandments." (Exod 34:28 NRSV)

Where do the scriptures divide the Old Covenant into 3 parts: Ten Commandments(moral); Civil & Ceremonial? I've never found such a distinction made, and I even studied out the following verse which I have seen referred to on this:

"...because Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.” (Gen 26:5 NRSV)

Doing a word study of the Hebrew behind the three terms "commandments", "statutes" and "laws" I find it cannot be consistent as representing the traditional moral, civil and ceremonial parts of the Old Covenant.

 

[Davy]

Some of your post isn't really Biblical, but is from Pop Christianity.

Well lets go over the New Covenant and see how it compares. God created Adam and Eve in his image but in the fall they, along with all mankind, began the downward spiral of corruption. It came to the point at the time of Noah that God was sorry that He made man because their thoughts were now evil continually. But now God wants us to hear and obey Him as obedient children. Under the old covenant the Ten Commandments were given to understanding of Gods character, and guard against the wrong actions of man.

When you begin to understand that Adam and Eve's fall HAD... to happen, then you might begin to understand what this 2nd world earth age is about. There could be no Savior preordained and sent to save us if Adam had not fallen.

God brought the flood of Noah's day in order to literally wipe out the 'giant' hybrid race created by a group of fallen angels that left their own abode, and came to earth, and took wives of the daughters of the man Adam (Jude, and "daughters of men" in Gen.6 in the Hebrew is actually pointing directly to the offspring of the man Adam that God placed in His Garden. The devil went after the Seed of the Woman that Christ was to be born through). The offspring result of those angels and flesh women were the 'giant' hybrids, a race of supernatural hybrids and of great stature. Their great size is documented in God's Word, even though Pop Christianity tries to deny it. Genesis 6 about Noah says he was perfect in his generations, which in the Hebrew is about bloodline purity. Noah and his family had not mixed with the Nephilim (fallen ones).

The ministry of stone, regarding the Ten Commandments, was meant to bring life but instead they brought death. Why is this? Because the curse of the law, which followed the law on stone because of sin.

I don't see God's Ten Commandments in the way you speak of.

His Ten Commandments are still in effect today under Lord Jesus Christ. And they are a good thing. The idea of the 'curse' is about those who break His laws that are against sin. And what is sin? Apostle Paul defined what sin is in 1 Timothy 1, Galatians 5, and 1 Corinthians 6, as did Apostle John in 1 John 3:4. Therefore, understanding God's laws and what is sin, and what is not, is Christian Doctrine per The New Covenant Jesus Christ. Lord Jesus promised to send us The Holy Spirit to help teach us in that matter too (John 14:26).

Sin brings about the curse of death from the law. It's not the law that brings the death, but rather, the sin.

Yes, and what did you not understand when Apostle Paul said in Romans 6:7 that he that is dead is freed from sin? Our flesh is what causes most of our sins. That is why Apostle Paul also taught in Galatians 5 to walk by The Spirit instead of doing the works of the flesh, and he listed many of those works of the flesh in His Epistles so we could identify them, and take notice in our own lives. So the true Christian actually is... still recognizing many of God's laws today that Lord Jesus did NOT nail to His cross.

What Jesus nailed to His cross was mainly the 'ordinances' in God's law, things like the blood ordinances, ritual sacrifice, ceremonial worship, a priesthood of man as mediator, etc. Jesus did not nail many of God's statutes and judgments and commandments to His cross.

And Jesus certainly did NOT nail The Ten Commandments to His cross. Those who think so are listening to the devil and his servants. (And no, I am not Jewish. I am a Protestant Christian.)

Under the New Covenant Jesus took the curse away when He became sin and died on the cross. He did not take the law away for the law is holy and good, He took away the curse for the sin.

Yes, and His death Paul said represents a type of baptism into symbolic death of our 'old man'.

The law brings liberty to mankind. Without the law this world would be in total chaos. Life without law brings destruction and bondage of all kinds of wickedness.

Yes, which Apostle Paul did say in 1 Timothy 1 that the law was not made for the righteous, but for the sinner.

Once Jesus did away with the curse He freed us from the grip of the law, in other words, the law is no longer a threat to us who are in Christ. This frees us up to obey the law from our own free will because we love and appreciate what God has done for us through His Son. In this, God is writing the law on our hearts, in other words, we are not obeying the law out of fear of death or punishment, but rather, we are obeying from the heart because of love and gratitude, this is the New Covenant. God frees us from the grip of the law because of sin to allow us to freely obey the law because of love. In this, the law goes from stone to the heart.

Still some loose things in your interpretation on that. We are ONLY freed from the curse of the law IF... we 'walk by The Spirit', like Paul said in Gal.5. When we do that, then we are not under the law, he said. That's a condition, that IF. It's by choice, but of course The Holy Spirit is our help in doing that walk, IF... we listen to Him.

But instead walk by the flesh, which ALL... Christian brethren sometimes fall into, (myself included), and we then place ourselves back under God's law. And like you intimated, many of those laws are established in Christian society by governments, like the sin of thievery for one example, or adultery.

Hebrews 8:10-13 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel: After those days,'' says the Lord, "I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. "None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying,`Know the Lord,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.'' In that He says, "A new covenant,'' He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

And you think that is 'completely' fulfilled today already? I recognize Jesus has brought The New Covenant. But that no recognizing our future sin, that's not yet complete today, and especially for those who fall away to the coming Antichrist at the end of this world in our near future. That's why that passage also says, "ready to vanish away", which is actually pointing to the future when Jesus has returned.

The Ten Commandments are the foundation of love for God and love for neighbor. The first four teaches us how to love God and the last six teaches us how to love others.

The Ten Commandment's are not to be a rigid law of bondage, but rather, the Spirit of God impresses us to live by them through love.

The Ten Commandments are not to be "a rigid law of bondage"? Is that really how you see God's Ten Commandments, like the represent "bondage"? I realize that attitude is how the children of darkness who want to be their own gods think about God's Ten Commandments. They rebel against God and His Righteousness.

The 'rigidness' you are actually suggesting is with how God's people under the 'old covenant' suffered harsh penalties for not obeying God's Ten Commandments, some even put to death.

But by The Holy Spirit, we don't see those Commandments as bondage, but as righteousness. By God sending us His Spirit to understand the difference, is how He shows us love with that matter of His laws. And that is what Lord Jesus was teaching about the spirit of the law.

Jesus brought this understanding to us in His life and in His teachings. He showed us that keeping the law for the sake of keeping the law was not what God was looking for. God is looking for a people to love Him and to love each other in which this love is manifested through keeping the law. In this, Jesus was magnifying the law and bringing honor to it.

The attitude of "keeping the law for the sake of keeping the law" is from those who don't have The Holy Spirit to show them the difference between sin and righteousness. Thus I cannot agree with men's doctrines on the 'learn not to do by rote' ideas they create. Even in a loving family in The LORD, obeying what one's father asks their child is a good thing that shows respect and love by that child who obeys. Should the child then interpret obeying their father as being in bondage? No. But a child with a 'rebellious' nature that wants to do what they want instead, would see that as bondage.

 

[Arthur81]

Some of your post isn't really Biblical, but is from Pop Christianity.


When you begin to understand that Adam and Eve's fall HAD... to happen, then you might begin to understand what this 2nd world earth age is about. There could be no Savior preordained and sent to save us if Adam had not fallen.

God brought the flood of Noah's day in order to literally wipe out the 'giant' hybrid race created by a group of fallen angels that left their own abode, and came to earth, and took wives of the daughters of the man Adam (Jude, and "daughters of men" in Gen.6 in the Hebrew is actually pointing directly to the offspring of the man Adam that God placed in His Garden. The devil went after the Seed of the Woman that Christ was to be born through). The offspring result of those angels and flesh women were the 'giant' hybrids, a race of supernatural hybrids and of great stature. Their great size is documented in God's Word, even though Pop Christianity tries to deny it. Genesis 6 about Noah says he was perfect in his generations, which in the Hebrew is about bloodline purity. Noah and his family had not mixed with the Nephilim (fallen ones).



I don't see God's Ten Commandments in the way you speak of.

His Ten Commandments are still in effect today under Lord Jesus Christ. And they are a good thing. The idea of the 'curse' is about those who break His laws that are against sin. And what is sin? Apostle Paul defined what sin is in 1 Timothy 1, Galatians 5, and 1 Corinthians 6, as did Apostle John in 1 John 3:4. Therefore, understanding God's laws and what is sin, and what is not, is Christian Doctrine per The New Covenant Jesus Christ. Lord Jesus promised to send us The Holy Spirit to help teach us in that matter too (John 14:26).


Yes, and what did you not understand when Apostle Paul said in Romans 6:7 that he that is dead is freed from sin? Our flesh is what causes most of our sins. That is why Apostle Paul also taught in Galatians 5 to walk by The Spirit instead of doing the works of the flesh, and he listed many of those works of the flesh in His Epistles so we could identify them, and take notice in our own lives. So the true Christian actually is... still recognizing many of God's laws today that Lord Jesus did NOT nail to His cross.

What Jesus nailed to His cross was mainly the 'ordinances' in God's law, things like the blood ordinances, ritual sacrifice, ceremonial worship, a priesthood of man as mediator, etc. Jesus did not nail many of God's statutes and judgments and commandments to His cross.

And Jesus certainly did NOT nail The Ten Commandments to His cross. Those who think so are listening to the devil and his servants. (And no, I am not Jewish. I am a Protestant Christian.)


Yes, and His death Paul said represents a type of baptism into symbolic death of our 'old man'.


Yes, which Apostle Paul did say in 1 Timothy 1 that the law was not made for the righteous, but for the sinner.


Still some loose things in your interpretation on that. We are ONLY freed from the curse of the law IF... we 'walk by The Spirit', like Paul said in Gal.5. When we do that, then we are not under the law, he said. That's a condition, that IF. It's by choice, but of course The Holy Spirit is our help in doing that walk, IF... we listen to Him.

But instead walk by the flesh, which ALL... Christian brethren sometimes fall into, (myself included), and we then place ourselves back under God's law. And like you intimated, many of those laws are established in Christian society by governments, like the sin of thievery for one example, or adultery.



And you think that is 'completely' fulfilled today already? I recognize Jesus has brought The New Covenant. But that no recognizing our future sin, that's not yet complete today, and especially for those who fall away to the coming Antichrist at the end of this world in our near future. That's why that passage also says, "ready to vanish away", which is actually pointing to the future when Jesus has returned.



The Ten Commandments are not to be "a rigid law of bondage"? Is that really how you see God's Ten Commandments, like the represent "bondage"? I realize that attitude is how the children of darkness who want to be their own gods think about God's Ten Commandments. They rebel against God and His Righteousness.

The 'rigidness' you are actually suggesting is with how God's people under the 'old covenant' suffered harsh penalties for not obeying God's Ten Commandments, some even put to death.

But by The Holy Spirit, we don't see those Commandments as bondage, but as righteousness. By God sending us His Spirit to understand the difference, is how He shows us love with that matter of His laws. And that is what Lord Jesus was teaching about the spirit of the law.


The attitude of "keeping the law for the sake of keeping the law" is from those who don't have The Holy Spirit to show them the difference between sin and righteousness. Thus I cannot agree with men's doctrines on the 'learn not to do by rote' ideas they create. Even in a loving family in The LORD, obeying what one's father asks their child is a good thing that shows respect and love by that child who obeys. Should the child then interpret obeying their father as being in bondage? No. But a child with a 'rebellious' nature that wants to do what they want instead, would see that as bondage.

Davy, you wrote: "And Jesus certainly did NOT nail The Ten Commandments to His cross. Those who think so are listening to the devil and his servants. (And no, I am not Jewish. I am a Protestant Christian.)"

What Protestant denomination would you identify with, or more closely align with today? For instance, I hold to the 1644/1646 First London Confession of Faith, which was produced by 7 Particular Baptist Churches in 17th century London.

 

[Davy]

Davy, you wrote: "And Jesus certainly did NOT nail The Ten Commandments to His cross. Those who think so are listening to the devil and his servants. (And no, I am not Jewish. I am a Protestant Christian.)"

What Protestant denomination would you identify with, or more closely align with today? For instance, I hold to the 1644/1646 First London Confession of Faith, which was produced by 7 Particular Baptist Churches in 17th century London.

I don't claim any one particular Protestant denomination, even though I was raised in a mainstream Protestant denomination that held to the doctrines of men called Preterism, which I do not believe.

If The Bible as written could be a denomination, then that is my denomination.

 

[Hobie]

I am skeptical when men are so wordy in what appears to be a distortion of what the scriptures so clearly state:

"In speaking of 'a new covenant,' he has made the first one obsolete. And what is obsolete and growing old will soon disappear." (Heb 8:13 NRSV)
how is the Old Covenant mentioned in the OT?
"He was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten commandments." (Exod 34:28 NRSV)

Where do the scriptures divide the Old Covenant into 3 parts: Ten Commandments(moral); Civil & Ceremonial? I've never found such a distinction made, and I even studied out the following verse which I have seen referred to on this:

"...because Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.” (Gen 26:5 NRSV)

Doing a word study of the Hebrew behind the three terms "commandments", "statutes" and "laws" I find it cannot be consistent as representing the traditional moral, civil and ceremonial parts of the Old Covenant.

Well lets look at the scriptures, which show that Christ was establishing the new covenant by perfect obedience to the law of God in fallen human flesh. Jesus was not just a devout Jew living under the old covenant, He was our example of how to live in the covenant with God and too many Christians have failed to grasp the meaning of the two covenants, they were both by faith. If you ask most people the question, "When did the old covenant begin?" most people would say on Sinai, when the law was given. But if you ask, "When did the new covenant begin?" no one can agree, but lets look at the text.

Jeremiah 31:31-33
“31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Now let’s look at the new covenant in Hebrews 8:8-10:

“8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:"

The same elements are found for the New Testament. The covenant partners are the same, the covenant objective is the same, and the covenant conditions are the same. The old Covenant and the new Covenant are the same, it was by faith and denying self and trusting in God, and we are transformed and we see it here.

Matthew 16:24-25
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

John 10:1-17
1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

John 10:27
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John 12:25-26
25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

The covenants are one and the same, and there is only one gospel, and it is the gospel of Jesus Christ which is of faith. It was always that way from Adam on down

 

[David in NJ]

Now the law is based on God's holy nature and as such scripture states are holy, just, and unchanging, and we see this in the Ten Commandments. But then you also have the ceremonial law which focused the people’s attention on God and gave the people signs that point to the coming Messiah, such as the Passover, and the sacrifices of the unblemished lamb by the priests. One was written with Gods own finger, and the other was from Moses.

Matthew 5:17-19
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

We see here that Jesus stated "Think not that I am come to destroy the law..but to fulfill", what did He mean? Now, since Jesus knew what laws His death would fulfill, would He be saying this about the Ten Commandments if He were going to fulfill them? So what was He fulfilling, it seems clear it was what pointed to Him, Moses’ ceremonial law which is evident if we see what Jesus said when asked.

Mark 12:28-31
28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Matthew 22:37-40
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The Ten Commandments are arranged in two groups, the first group of four commandments deal with our relationship to God, the second group of the fifth to the tenth commandments deal with our relationship to one another. When Jesus talks about 'not that I am come to destroy the law', it is obvious that it is the Ten Commandments Jesus is talking about. So did Jesus want to do away with the Ten Commandments or did He came to fulfill that which pointed to Him as the Lamb of God, the ceremonial law of Moses. We have to understand His purpose...

What did Christ say about the Law?​

He said He would hang it on a Tree for all the world to SEE.

 

[steve morrow]

THE OLD AND THE NEW

ROMANS 8:1 there is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in CHRIST JESUS who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit
--8:2-- for the law of the spirit of life in CHRIST JESUS hath made me free ---THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH --

2 CORINTHIANS 3:5 not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think anything as of ourselves but our sufficiency is of GOD
--3:6-- who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament ---not of the letter -- but of the spirit--- FOR THE LETTER KILLETH BUT THE SPIRIT GIVETH LIFE---

--3:7-- but if the ministration of death written and engraven in stones was glorious so that the children of israel could not stedfastly behold the face of moses for the glory of his countenance ---WHICH GLORY WAS TO BE DONE AWAY---

--3:8-- how shall not the minstration of the spirit be rather glorious
--3:9--for if the ministration of --CONDEMNATION-- be glory much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory
--3:10-- for even that which is done away was glorious had no glory in this respect ---BY REASON OF THE GLORY THAT EXCELLETH---
--3:11-- for if that which is done away was glorious much more that which remaineth is glorious

JOHN 6:63 it is the spirit that quickeneth the flesh profiteth nothing the words that I speak unto you they are spirit and they are life

HEBREWS 7:11 if therefore perfection were by the levitical priesthood for under it the people received the law what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of melchisedec and not be called after the order of aaron

--7:12-- FOR THE PRIESTHOOD BEING CHANGED THERE IS MADE OF NECESSITY --- A CHANGE ALSO OF THE LAW ---


--7:22-- by so much was JESUS made a surety of a better testament

--7:23-- and they truly were many priests because they were not suffered to continue --- BY REASON OF DEATH ---


--7:24-- BUT THIS MAN BECAUSE HE CONTINUETH EVER HATH AN UNCHANGEABLE PRIESTHOOD



LOVING THE LORD JESUS CHRIST

 

[Hobie]

What did Christ say about the Law?​

He said He would hang it on a Tree for all the world to SEE.

I think He was clear...
Matthew 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[David in NJ]

I think He was clear...
Matthew 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Law vs Commandments

The LORD separated the Two when He died on the Cross

 

[Zachariah.]

Whatever it was, it had nothing to do with government.

 

[David in NJ]

Whatever it was, it had nothing to do with government.

Isaiah 9:6-7
For unto us a Child is born,
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

 

[Zachariah.]

Isaiah 9:6-7
For unto us a Child is born,
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Government in this case is alot different than the criminals we have running the world today. Plus don't you remember how God warned the people about having Kings but they did it anyway?

It was organised religion (Pharasies) that wanted Jesus dead. It was the Roman government (Pilate) that sentenced him to death. And it was the Police (Centurion) who carried out the crucifixion. Ultimately it was the police that killed Jesus... lol.

Nothing has changed. Your a fool if you support these control systems.

 

[David in NJ]

Government in this case is alot different than the criminals we have running the world today. Plus don't you remember how God warned the people about having Kings but they did it anyway?

It was organised religion (Pharasies) that wanted Jesus dead. It was the Roman government (Pilate) that sentenced him to death. And it was the Police (Centurion) who carried out the crucifixion. Ultimately it was the police that killed Jesus... lol.

Nothing has changed. Your a fool if you support these control systems.

Remove your last sentence as i AGREE with everything you stated.

Nothing has changed except this: It is daily getting worse and worse

 

[RedFan]

I think Christ had the prerogative to overrule OT declarations, however galling it might be to Pharisees.

 

[GracePeace]

Now the law is based on God's holy nature and as such scripture states are holy, just, and unchanging, and we see this in the Ten Commandments. But then you also have the ceremonial law which focused the people’s attention on God and gave the people signs that point to the coming Messiah, such as the Passover, and the sacrifices of the unblemished lamb by the priests. One was written with Gods own finger, and the other was from Moses.

Matthew 5:17-19
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

We see here that Jesus stated "Think not that I am come to destroy the law..but to fulfill", what did He mean? Now, since Jesus knew what laws His death would fulfill, would He be saying this about the Ten Commandments if He were going to fulfill them? So what was He fulfilling, it seems clear it was what pointed to Him, Moses’ ceremonial law which is evident if we see what Jesus said when asked.

Mark 12:28-31
28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Matthew 22:37-40
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The Ten Commandments are arranged in two groups, the first group of four commandments deal with our relationship to God, the second group of the fifth to the tenth commandments deal with our relationship to one another. When Jesus talks about 'not that I am come to destroy the law', it is obvious that it is the Ten Commandments Jesus is talking about. So did Jesus want to do away with the Ten Commandments or did He came to fulfill that which pointed to Him as the Lamb of God, the ceremonial law of Moses. We have to understand His purpose...

It's untrue that God's Law is eternal and unchanging--eg, the Law forbids incest, but incest was a Holy Command in Gen 1 ("be fruitful and multiply" would result in incest).

Christ overruled Torah in a number of instances (eg, forbidding vows), so we know He didn't mean "You must follow the Law", but means His new rulings uphold the principles behind the Laws (eg, the Law says to respect God by paying your vows, but Christ says to respect God by taking no vow at all).

 

[David in NJ]

I think Christ had the prerogative to overrule OT declarations, however galling it might be to Pharisees.

Matthew 5:17
Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled

John 19:28-30
After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, “I thirst!”
Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth.
So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

Revelation 1:7-8
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says theLord, “Who Is and Who was and Who Is to come, the Almighty.”

 

[GracePeace]

I think Christ had the prerogative to overrule OT declarations, however galling it might be to Pharisees.

Yep, James identifies Christ as a "Law giver"--ie, in terms of Law giving, on par with (or better than) Moses, as it says, "a prophet like Moses".