What Do The Book of Daniel DECEIVERS Present?!?

[CharismaticLady]

Yes, that's true :) but prophetic symbolism tells us that God sometimes makes "each day for a year". And the way to make the 2,300 Days pertain to "the time of the end" is to make them "each day for a year". If they expired with your Jewish insurrection theory, what possibly could they have to do with the time of the end?

Remember, every single one of Daniel's visions starts in his day and proceeds to stretch down to the end of time...but somehow the vision of Daniel 8 gets stuck in the eschatological mud and lost somewhere 2nd century B.C.? Not possible.

I must have missed him saying it was "the end of time." My Bible says,

“And the vision of the evenings and mornings
Which was told is true;
Therefore seal up the vision,
For it refers to many days in the future.”

 

[Phoneman777]

So what? Gabriel already told him all he was going to. YEARS later Daniel was studying Jeremiah.

Is that why Gabriel showed up a few years later to reveal more about the vision of chapter 8...the only vision that Gabriel could have been referring to, right? Seeing that there's not another revelation given to Daniel about future events from the time he passed out in chapter 8 until the time Gabriel shows up to give him "skill and understanding" by telling him to "understand the matter and consider the vision" - the "mareh" of chapter 8.

 

[Phoneman777]

I must have missed him saying it was "the end of time." My Bible says,

“And the vision of the evenings and mornings
Which was told is true;
Therefore seal up the vision,
For it refers to many days in the future.”

Daniel 8:17 "So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end [shall be] the vision."

 

[CharismaticLady]

Is that why Gabriel showed up a few years later to reveal more about the vision of chapter 8...the only vision that Gabriel could have been referring to, right? Seeing that there's not another revelation given to Daniel about future events from the time he passed out in chapter 8 until the time Gabriel shows up to give him "skill and understanding" by telling him to "understand the matter and consider the vision" - the "mareh" of chapter 8.

He didn't come about chapter 8; that's all in your head. Besides 2300 YEARS came to nothing but a great disappointment. God is always on time.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Daniel 8:17 "So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end [shall be] the vision."

He didn't say at the time of the end of what. Jesus used the same phrase for the end of Herod's temple. The 6.3 years was the end of the first abomination of desolation from 167 BC to 160 BC.

Why in the world do you hold on to prophetic years when nothing happened? These prophecies are true down to the minute. God is never late, or early.

 

[Phoneman777]

He didn't come about chapter 8; that's all in your head. Besides 2300 YEARS came to nothing but a great disappointment. God is always on time.

OK, please slow down and follow this:

Question: Did Gabriel show up to discuss a "vision" in chapter 9?
Answer: "...wherefore, understand the matter and consider the vision".

Question: What is the most recent vision that Daniel had recieved?
Answer: Daniel 8

Question: Was Daniel the recipient of another vision from between the end of chapter 8 until Gabriel arrives?
Answer: No

Question: Then to what "vision" can Gabriel only be referring when saying "understand the matter and consider the vision"?
Answer: The vision of chapter 8, specifically the "mareh" of the 2,300 Days.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Question: Did Gabriel show up to discuss a "vision" in chapter 9?
Answer: "...wherefore, understand the matter and consider the vision".

Yes.

Question: What is the most recent vision that Daniel had recieved?
Answer: Daniel 8

No! This is years later and he was studying the vision of Jeremiah of seventy years, not his own vision of the 2300 evenings and mornings. (Question: how else would God clarify that He meant a literal day, rather than a prophetic day inside a prophecy? He would use the law of first use. And in this case it is in Genesis 1.) That prophecy was fulfilled down to the minute.

What happened at the end of 2300 years? Chapter 9 says it was about Jerusalem and their sanctuary.

 

[Phoneman777]

He didn't say at the time of the end of what. Jesus used the same phrase for the end of Herod's temple. The 6.3 years was the end of the first abomination of desolation from 167 BC to 160 BC.

Why in the world do you hold on to prophetic years when nothing happened? These prophecies are true down to the minute. God is never late, or early.

Really? 8 times the book of Daniel mentions "the time of the end" - all within the context of last days when "many shall run to and fro and knowledge shall increase" and in which will arise the great climax of the battle between good and evil.......and yet you're going to insist that Daniel 8's "time of the end" is referring to an event that is 2nd century B.C.?

Also, there was no "abomination" before Jesus' time because Jesus specifically says that what was "spoken of by Daniel the prophet" was still a future event. :)

 

[CharismaticLady]

Really? 8 times the book of Daniel mentions "the time of the end" - all within the context of last days when "many shall run to and fro and knowledge shall increase" and in which will arise the great climax of the battle between good and evil.......and yet you're going to insist that Daniel 8's "time of the end" is referring to an event that is 2nd century B.C.?

Also, there was no "abomination" before Jesus' time because Jesus specifically says that what was "spoken of by Daniel the prophet" was still a future event. :)

Chapter 7 is about in the future. But chapter 8 is about their present sanctuary in Jerusalem before Jesus where there was an abomination, and so is chapter 9 about Jerusalem but (another) sanctuary after Jesus that Herod had built. Jesus was referring to chapter 9.

 

[CharismaticLady]

@Phoneman777
You still haven't told me why you still believe it was 2300 prophetic years when nothing happened in Jerusalem regarding the sanctuary (that was not there) in 1844. Do you honestly believe the fulfillment would be invisible to everyone? No prophecy fulfillments are unverifiable.

 

[Jay Ross]

None of what you said changes the fact that when the Daniel chapter 8 passage is dealing with the entire "vision" it uses both "chazown" and "mareh", but when dealing with only the 2,300 Days portion of the prophecy, it uses "mareh"...the very same word that Gabriel uses to describe what "vision" he's come to enlighten Daniel about.

It's not necessary to split Hebraic hairs into infinitesimally small fragments to see that.

I am saddened by your lack of understanding of the Limitations of the Blue letter Web site and a lack of comparing Apples with Apple and not with oranges. Both apples and oranges are a fruit which grows on trees, but they are very different from each other.

It does not diminish my charge against you for using the BLB site outside of its limitations.

Because you rely on the Blue Letter Web site for your enlightenment I would question the reliability of what you post because you are using the Blue Letter website outside of its limitations.

In Genesis_41:4 the context of the verse suggests that it is only talking of the lean and fat cows, however in Daniel_8:16 the context is in reference to the whole vision, whereas in Daniel_8:26, וּמַרְאֵ֨ה, ū·mar·’êh is a different variation based on the Hebrew Root H:4758 and the context confirms that the 2,300 mornings and evenings, i.e. 2300 years was for a time many years into the future.

Now your statement that it is not necessary to split Hebraic hairs to see the point that you are making, it is necessary to understand the context of the Hebraic text. By only considering the meaning of the Hebrew Root word in your explanation, of what it means, suggests that the actual meaning of the Hebraic Text in this verse is irrelevant to you.

That is the very point that I am making and as such, I hold little regard for your posts.

Shalom

 

[Phoneman777]

Chapter 7 is about in the future. But chapter 8 is about their present sanctuary in Jerusalem before Jesus where there was an abomination, and so is chapter 9 about Jerusalem but (another) sanctuary after Jesus that Herod had built. Jesus was referring to chapter 9.

You mean chapter 8 that says the vision is for "the time of the end"? :)

 

[CharismaticLady]

You mean chapter 8 that says the vision is for "the time of the end"? :)

Yes, that one. What happened when it was fulfilled that is verifiable.

 

[CharismaticLady]

God sometimes makes "each day for a year"

This is true, but never are there specifics attached to the word day, like evenings and mornings. Then it is what is written - literal. But did you also know that a day could also mean 1000 years? Look at Hosea 6:1-3. I believe that is the case in that prophecy. What do you think? I believe it is when Israel was "torn" in 70 AD. Add 2000 years and the Millennium may start in 2070. Just my thoughts.

 

[Phoneman777]

I am saddened by your lack of understanding of the Limitations of the Blue letter Web site

I didn't say the BLB didn't have limitations. I could prove the same thing with a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance with OT/NT Lexicons.

What matters is the fact that whenever the passage is dealing specifically with the 2,300 Days portion of the prophecy, the English word "vision" is from "mareh", not "chazown".

Armed with this knowledge, as well as:

• Daniel could not have questions about the other elements of the chapter 8 prophecy because Gabriel fully explained them
• The only confusion Daniel was left with at the end of the chapter was about the 2,300 Days
• Gabriel says specifically that he came to explain the "mareh" - the word in chapter 8 which pertains to the 2,300 Days
• Gabriel says the 70 Weeks are "cut off" from...what?....the only other time prophecy mentioned regarding the entire issue: the 2,300 Days

It saddens me that such important pieces of the puzzle are discarded in order to make a picture emerge which is not depicted on the cover. Antiochus the Chump was not "exceeding" greater than Alex the Great or any before him, he did not reign "at the latter time of the reign of these kings", he is not the the "Little Horn that came out of one of the four horns" because Hebrew noun/pronoun gender agreement demands the pronoun "them" refers to "winds" not "horns" as well as the pronoun antecedent points to "winds", he was not "broken without hand" which means "by the power of God" - he died from sickness.

 

[Jay Ross]

He didn't come about chapter 8; that's all in your head. Besides 2300 YEARS came to nothing but a great disappointment. God is always on time.

It depends on whether or not you have the right starting point for the prophetic vision or part there of. The 2,300 days/years was to start after the death of Alexandra the great who died in 323 BC and the splitting of his empire into four parts and then those parts coming under the influence of the four winds of heaven after which out of one of them the little horn gained dominance and exerted greater influence over that particular division of the divided Grecian Empire. I have previously suggested that the beginning of the 2,300 years was some 60 or 70 years after the death of Alexandra the Great, because Christ provided the approximate end for this present age, as being around 25 years into our future in the Matt_24:32 one verse prophecy when we apply the year for a day principle for understanding the time san of a prophecy.

But we are also told that the visitation of the iniquities of the fathers of Israel will end around the same time. It is at this time that the Temple will begin to be cleansed.

Shalom

 

[CharismaticLady]

I could prove the same thing with a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance with OT/NT Lexicons.

Yeah, I've actually questioned one of the definitions. But what I actually think happened is the Latin translations were translated back to Greek, but used the wrong Greek word.

 

[CharismaticLady]

It depends on whether or not you have the right starting point for the prophetic vision or part there of. The 2,300 days/years was to start after the death of Alexandra the great who died in 323 BC and the splitting of his empire into four parts and then those parts coming under the influence of the four winds of heaven after which out of one of them the little horn gained dominance and exerted greater influence over that particular division of the divided Grecian Empire. I have previously suggested that the beginning of the 2,300 years was some 60 or 70 years after the death of Alexandra the Great, because Christ provided the approximate end for this present age, as being around 25 years into our future in the Matt_24:32 one verse prophecy when we apply the year for a day principle for understanding the time san of a prophecy.

But we are also told that the visitation of the iniquities of the fathers of Israel will end around the same time. It is at this time that the Temple will begin to be cleansed.

Shalom

But in this case it wasn't just the word "day;" there were specifics (evenings and mornings) making it literally 24 hour days as in Genesis 1.

 

[Phoneman777]

This is true, but never are there specifics attached to the word day, like evenings and mornings. Then it is what is written - literal. But did you also know that a day could also mean 1000 years? Look at Hosea 6:1-3. I believe that is the case in that prophecy. What do you think? I believe it is when Israel was "torn" in 70 AD. Add 2000 years and the Millennium may start in 2070. Just my thoughts.

Guess what took place every day at the "Evenings and Mornings" and to which the entire collection of Daniel 8 symbolism points?

The Sacrifice...in the sanctuary. God is trying to draw our attention to the sanctuary for understanding of the prophecy. Whether "evenings and mornings", or "day", the meaning of the words are identical: 24 hour periods...and in symbolic time prophecy, 24 hour periods are symbols for 360 day time periods.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Guess what took place every day at the "Evenings and Mornings" and to which the entire collection of Daniel 8 symbolism points?

The Sacrifice...in the sanctuary. God is trying to draw our attention to the sanctuary for understanding of the prophecy. Whether "evenings and mornings", or "day", the meaning of the words are identical: 24 hour periods...and in symbolic time prophecy, 24 hour periods are symbols for 360 day time periods.

I agree that the calculations are based on 360 day years. But every few years they add a few to regulate the clock to the seasons.