What do we have to say about the rapture?

[Wakka]

Most importantly, what do we have to say about 1 Thessalonians 4:17?1 Thessalonians 4:17Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[Jordan]

Clouds means the Body, a group of people. Air means spirits / souls.Let me explain. Go outside, do you see clouds? Likewise you also see people. Can you see air? Likewise you can't see our spirits / souls.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.

 

[Christina]

(Wakka;39770)
Most importantly, what do we have to say about 1 Thessalonians 4:17?1 Thessalonians 4:17Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
We are to read the next chapter where Peter continues to teach on this matter correcting any misunderstandings Timothoy reported to him that is the second letter to Thess which further tells when this will happen There is no pre trib rapture in Gods wordit is a lie of men that will lead you into the arms of Antichrist Its the biggest lie Satan has put on the modern day church.this is a matter of your very salvation you better get it right LISTEN TO GOD NOT MEN

 

[Christina]

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"Paul is now getting to the purpose for this second letter. Paul reminded them of his first letter to them, of Christ returning and our gathering back to Him. Because of the misunderstanding that could be drawn from the first letter, he writes the following. It's important in this final generation that we pay attention for this will happen during our life time. The subject again of this letter is; "our gathering back to Christ".II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is [the Lord is just] at hand."Paul doesn't want you to misunderstand what he is about to say. This is why he makes it plain and simple; Paul told them not to confuse what he is saying here with any other teaching, or spirit, or even that first letter from him. This is because there was a confusing part in the first letter where false teachers had crept in and twisted Paul's words. The prime example of this today is the twisting of that first letter by the "rapture theorist", to form the trap that has been set for Christians in this final generation. Paul is saying, don't let anyone trouble you [confuse you], and tell you that the "day of Christ" is at hand. The "day of Christ [the Lord]" is the day when Jesus Christ will return to earth, and gather His saints to Him. This gathering will happen at the sounding of the seventh trumpet. This is one of those tradition's of men [false doctrines] that can deceive you. II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"Jesus Christ is not gathering anyone to Him, nor is He coming here to earth, except there be a falling away first. The word for "falling away", in the Greek is "apostasy". Jesus told us in His revelation to John, in Revelation 9:11, that "Apollyon" is one of Satan's names, and this name is derived from the word apostasy.The word "perdition" means "one that perishes". Satan and only Satan has already been condemned to die [to perish] by God. Satan's judgment day has come already back in the first earth age, and he will have no part in the Great White Throne judgment, or any other judgment yet to come. He has already been judged, and sentence by God to death "perdition" [Ezekiel 28 covers this judgment].What did Paul say again?Jesus Christ is coming back to this earth, but the saints of Christ will not be gathered to Him until the "son of perdition" [Satan] be revealed first. How will we know who he is when he arrives?Revelation 17:8 "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is [shall come]."This beast "thou [John] sawest", was in the first earth age; and is not on this earth now, as it is written in Revelation 12:7. Satan is in heaven being our accuser, and will be cast out to this earth very shortly by Michael. "And shall ascend out of the bottomless pit; and go into perdition;" Who is he again? He is Satan the Antichrist. Satan is not a man born of woman, but a "supernatural arch angel". In Ezekiel 28 it is written that Satan [Lucifer] is the most beautiful of all God's created beings. In Isaiah 14:12; "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lu'-ci-fer [day star], son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!" Lucifer then is another name for Satan; he is also called the Dragon, the serpent, and many other names accounting for the roles he plays, and in our generation he will also be called the "Antichrist".Isaiah 14:13; "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:" Satan is saying, I'm going to be God, and be above the sons [stars] of God. The "mount of the congregation" is on mount Zion; and that is "the side of the north" where Jesus Christ's temple will be. Isaiah 14:14; "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High." Satan is saying again, he is going to be God.Isaiah 14:15; "Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell [sheol], to the sides of the pit." Who is this that is going into the pit? Who is this son of perdition? It is Lucifer, who is Satan, the "son of perdition". The "son of perdition" of II Thessalonians 2:3 is none other than Satan himself, coming to earth to play the role of Jesus Christ. Paul then is saying that the true Christ, Jesus Christ, will not return to earth until this "apostasy" takes place first.Isaiah 14:16; "They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;"Following Jesus Christ's return to earth, and when the Antichrist [Satan] is safely in the pit; the world will wonder; how could Satan have shook all the kingdoms? They simply can't believe that they were deceived into believing this man to be God. Are you going to be one of those deceived into believing Satan is the Christ, or do you know the difference?Paul is saying to the Thessalonians that Jesus Christ will not come, or will their be a gathering of the saints until you see the Antichrist [son of perdition] first. It takes a lot of guts to take the word of a false preacher, over Paul, Jesus, John, Isaiah, and a whole host of other prophets and disciples. This "apostasy" [falling away] is caused by the "son of perdition", and you will see him live and in person, very shortly.II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."The "Son of perdition" is Satan and Isaiah just told us this very same thing. Remember, the temple of God is on mount Zion, and "on the side of the North". This person sitting there is sitting in God's seat, pretending to be God: "Showing himself that he is God."Do you know what Jesus said about this very thing. Jesus called it in Matthew 24:15, the very same thing that Daniel called it in Daniel 9:27; "the Abomination of desolation". A more correct translation in the "James Moffatt translation Bible" is called "The abomination by the desolator". "Satan claiming to be God" is the abomination, and "he" [Satan] is the desolator, for the entire world will believe him; except for God's elect, and all those who have the seal of God in their minds [foreheads]. The sealed of God have their gospel armor on, and they are ready to face Satan and his system in the spiritual warfare.Does the "rapture theory" still look inviting to you? If it does, friend, your in a heap of trouble. This is not me talking, but Paul; for he is warning you to be watching out for the Antichrist, for he is a copy of exactly what you expect of Christ. The Antichrist [Satan] will have supernatural powers, and he will come first, before our Lord Jesus Christ. We are given the exact time of the Antichrist's arrival upon the earth in Revelation 9:1. It is at the sounding of the FIFTH TRUMPET. The trumpets are sounded in order, and the fifth trumpet is prior to the seventh. It can't be that hard to understand. Satan will be God to all the people of the world, including all Christians who do NOT have the seal of God in their minds [foreheads], to know the truth. The fall is because they will not take the simplicity and understanding in which Christ taught. The whole purpose for Paul to write the II Thessalonians letter, was to warn that church, as well as the churches of today, of the errors in teaching that others were making of his first letter. Don't expect Christ's return to soon, for these things of II Thessalonians 2:1-4 must take place first.II Thessalonians 2:5 "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"Paul is again reminding them.II Thessalonians 2:6 "And now ye know what withholdeth [that which restraineth to the end] that he might be revealed in his time [own season].""And now", is Paul's reminder to them that they did talk about this when he was with them in person. Who then is this one that would "be revealed in his time?" The subject here is "the son of perdition", Satan, the Antichrist, or what ever name you desire to use for him. He is Satan, and Satan will commit the "abomination of desolation" of Daniel 9:27; and the church will be here to see it, because the "gathering", or Christ's return follows this. II Thessalonians 2:7 "For the mystery of iniquity [lawlessness] doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."There is no mystery around when this will take place, for we will know his methods of operation [withholdeth], and the signs, the seasons, and the times of Satan's arrival to earth. If you are in the Word of God and not following these "one verse preachers", you will know when to expect the Antichrist. You will also know within hours of when to expect our Lord Jesus Christ's return. Satan's reign on earth is not seven years because God reduced that time to five months for the "elect's" sake, as Jesus told us in Matthew 24:22. Jesus also revealed that the time is shortened to five months, to John in Revelation 9:5, and 10. The "mystery of lawlessness" is the mystery of iniquity. "He who now letteth will let"; in the Greek should be translated; "He who holds fast [ketcho] will stand." The ellipsis, or "omission from an expression of a word clearly implied"; "There is one who hold's fast", instead of by repeating the verb, "will let". However, "katecho" is a transitive verb, and an object must be supplied also. So if the subject in verse six is Satan, then the object must be his position in the heavenlies [see Ephesians 6:12], from which he will be ejected from heaven by Michael [Revelation 12:7-9]."Out of the way", in the Greek is "out of ek", or "the midst". It is the same expression used in Acts 17:33, and I Corinthians 5:2. Many "rapture theorists" claim this one who "letteth" is the Holy Spirit, and they claim that when He is "taken away", then the Antichrist will come. By reversing the role of the characters in the verses here, and attributing what is Satan's to the Holy Spirit, you have a whole new doctrine called the "Any moment doctrine". This false doctrine is better known as the "rapture theory". It is dangerous to play around with a foreign language; and when the flock relies upon their shepherd for the truth, and the shepherd is assumed to be correct; in ignorance it is accepted just because he said it.It is Michael who "holds fast" on to Lucifer [the Antichrist], and Michael will continue to keep Lucifer held until the appointed time, spoken of above. That time is appointed by God. Then at the appointed time God will give Satan the keys [authority] to release his fallen angels and they will be cast to the earth [see Revelation 9:1-10]. Let's take a look at the one [Michael] who holds on to Satan now.Revelation 12:7; "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels," Michael [that is who the "he" is in II Thessalonians 2:7 and his [Michael's] angels fought against the dragon [another name for Satan] and his [Satan's] fallen angels.Revelation 12:8; "And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." This war took place in heaven, and that is where Satan and his angels are now; though Satan's spirit, and demonic spirits are all over the earth today. Now we will see what Michael does with Satan, in fulfilling II Thessalonians 2:7.Revelation 12:9; "And the great dragon [Satan] was cast out [that is the transitive verb of verse seven], that old serpent [this is the role Satan played in the Garden of Eden], called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world [except for God's elect]: he was cast out onto the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."This is when Satan will physically appear on earth as a man with his angels. This is the time of the Antichrist's coming, and we must know when this time is by when these events takes place, for Satan comes at the sixth trumpet. Then the verse picks up where Satan is standing in the holy place. Satan's object is to deceive all the world, and have the world take his markings in their minds. God's Word thus says that Satan will come to earth and stand in that Holy place, before Christ will come and gather anyone back to Himself.II Thessalonians 2:8 "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, Whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit [breath] of his mouth, and shall destroy [bring to naught] with the brightness [manifestation] of his coming:""The wicked" is better translated, "wicked one": What comes out of the Lord's mouth? It is the Truth. That is also the Word that God put in the mouth of Paul in this writing. Satan shall then be destroyed after being cast out, and also after standing in the holy place. After this is the time of Jesus Christ coming and gathering of His saints. There is no "anytime doctrine" here. It is in the course of certain events, and God lets us know clearly the order of these events, and exactly what to expect. In Matthew 24:15 Jesus is saying exactly what Paul is saying, Satan will come first and reign before the gathering of the saints. Then Christ will destroy Satan.II Thessalonians 2:9 "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Sa'-tan with all power and signs and lying wonders,""Even him" also includes Satan's religious beast system. Satan's religious system will be present with Satan. The religious beast is discussed in Revelation 13, and this the religious role that gives support and authority to Satan. If you believe in the Rapture theory, you will take part in that role. Many Christians will assume Satan to be Christ when they visible witness the supernatural powers he possess, and the deceptions that will take place, all except God's elect.II Thessalonians 2:10 "And with all deceivableness [deceit] of unrighteousness in [for] them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth,"God is writing this letter to us personally, and we are responsible for understanding it. We are accountable to God to give answer for our actions. It is you and I, individually, that will stand before God and give our personal answer for the personal handling of His Word. There will be no preacher, friend or family member with you on that judgment day, for they will all be explaining and accounting for their own words and actions. If your pastor is one of the false shepherds, and led many saints astray, his ignorance won't help him or you. This is something we must think about, our souls are at stake here.II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion [send them a working of error], that they should a lie;"If you want to believe a lie, God will allow it; in fact he will help you into the system of deceptions Satan will bring on the earth. Do you really think God will come here and personally show you, and talk to you when you refuse to believe His Word, when He gave it in such detail through the prophets and His Son. If you desire to believe that your going to fly out of here, and refuse His word, He will so block your mind that you will not be capable of understanding truth. God will send the "strong delusion" over your mind. The strong delusion is an act of love given by God for your protection. II Thessalonians 2:12 "That they all might be damned [judged] who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."This is the reason for the "strong delusion" of verse eleven; "That they might be damned", it would be more accurately translated "condemned". Condemned for not believing the truth in God's Word when given to them. They had the warning, but still followed Satan, and partook in his religious system."Pleasure in unrighteousness" is not referring to drunken brawls, or ***** houses, but it is a continuation of the subject here at hand. That subject is "worshipping the Antichrist [Satan] as the true Christ." You will take pleasure in that damnable sin; that unrighteous act will be done in your total ignorance. It's easy to say "I'm saved", but saved from what? The subject here has changed from that of verse eight, to "being damned through deception." The traditions of men will change this subject, from "being deceived by Satan, and enjoying it" to petty activities of the day.II Thessalonians 2:13 "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:" Paul does not think the Thessalonians will fall for this deceiving lie of the "any moment doctrine", after they have the truth. They were chosen from before the foundations of this earth age [the elect], and because they are, they will see, and believe the truth of God's holy Word. Romans 8 identifies these elect.Christ returns once at the last trump that is all scripture promises Pre trib RaptureIS A LIE SATAN IS THE PRINCE OF THE AIR IS THAT WHERE YOU WANT TO BE LIFTED INTO IF YOU FOLLOW PRE -TRIB RAPTURE THATS WHERE YOU ARE GOING RIGHT INTO SATANS WAITING ARMS.more studies related to this [url="http://www.christianityboard.com/two-field-t4140.html]http://www.christianityboard.com/two-field-t4140.html[/url]

 

[Wakka]

(Letsgofishing;39829)
Wow Kriss I was going to post an essay on this subject but then I look at yours which is longer and more completeyou win

Wakka listen to this, for this is wisdom
I know. I am having a debate on another forum that has some pre-trib members.

 

[followerofchrist]

I for one don't believe in the pre trib rapture but as to your post Kriss, I don't see how this is a matter of salvation. If you believe in the Pre-Tribulation rapture and it doesn't happen then you just go through the tribulation a little less prepared than those who didn't believe the pre-trib theory, thats all! How could it effect your salvation or lead you to the Anti-Christ? The only possible way I could see this happening is that someone would feel compelled to follow the Anti-christ during the tribulation because they have been in denial of the occuring tribulation because of the pre-trib rapture beliefs. And I wouldn't be suprised if that happens to a few people but there are many ways the ac will get people

 

[Letsgofishing]

(followerofchrist;39832)
I for one don't believe in the pre trib rapture but as to your post Kriss, I don't see how this is a matter of salvation. If you believe in the Pre-Tribulation rapture and it doesn't happen then you just go through the tribulation a little less prepared than those who didn't believe the pre-trib theory, thats all! How could it effect your salvation or lead you to the Anti-Christ? The only possible way I could see this happening is that someone would feel compelled to follow the Anti-christ during the tribulation because they have been in denial of the occuring tribulation because of the pre-trib rapture beliefs. And I wouldn't be suprised if that happens to a few people but there are many ways the ac will get people
You said it yourself follower of Christ. they believe The rapture just like the treaty with isreal brings in the tribulation. and if it doesn't happen they won't believe the tribulation is coming, and therefore wouldn't recognize the antichrist.God himself says that in the endtimes the antichrist will be so appealing that even the elect will be decieved if not for Gods intervention. Now if you are a huge pre-trib rapture christian, having doubts about the tribulation and therefore the antichrist will push you over the edge.

 

[Wakka]

(followerofchrist;39832)
I for one don't believe in the pre trib rapture but as to your post Kriss, I don't see how this is a matter of salvation. If you believe in the Pre-Tribulation rapture and it doesn't happen then you just go through the tribulation a little less prepared than those who didn't believe the pre-trib theory, thats all! How could it effect your salvation or lead you to the Anti-Christ? The only possible way I could see this happening is that someone would feel compelled to follow the Anti-christ during the tribulation because they have been in denial of the occuring tribulation because of the pre-trib rapture beliefs. And I wouldn't be suprised if that happens to a few people but there are many ways the ac will get people
She is saying that if you believe in a pre-trib rapture, you'll most likely be fooled into following Satan. Thus giving you a spot in hell.But if you die before the tribulation, still believing in the pre-trib, then it won't affect you.

 

[Siskim]

Clouds is group of people and air is spirits/souls? The Hebrew words have always such clarity of meaning and now we are associating clouds with people and air with spirits and souls? Why are we caught "up" and not "together," if this is the case? And what? Pauls first letter was wrong? Does this mean every Word of God is not inspired? Where does the "Imminent" Return come in? How can it be that Christ can return at "any" time when His Word outlines clearly the events that will happen before his Second Coming in Rev.? Then it can't be Imminent today. Is Imminent reserved for only after we see all the conditions of the world outlined in Rev? Then why Imminent?If the blood of Christ has saved us from judgement and wrath, "the wrath to come" (I Thes. 1:10) why do we face the judgements and wrath of God? The wrath is supposed to come on the children of disobedience correct? Or isn't the Tribulation the wrath to come? What is if not? If the Church enters the Tribulation, the wrath of God, and we, the Church, the body of Christ, and Christ in us, are going into wrath, will Christ suffer again? Who is one with us his Church? Didn't he already suffer? And again we were exhorted to be worthy to escape the wrath to come.The Tribulation is leading up to the restoration of the Jews/Israel....their spiritual renewal...and the New Jerusalem...on earth! ...not a being cauth up. The Church, which came into existence after Israel rejected the Messiah, is part of the "mystery that was hidden from the ages." And "I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed...In a moment, in the twinkling of any eye..." So are you saying no one will be caught up and meet the Lord in the clouds, and not sleep, and be changed in a moment....? Who will not sleep? or taste mortal death? What harmonizing point is there for the blood washed Church, by a Savior who already sufferred, to go through Tribulation? Was God wrong when he said our sins are washed away, and we are not assigned to condemnation and appointed to wrath? Israels time is coming...the tribulation events and what they lead to are all about Israels spiritual renewing. It's not about "the church"...which was born after Israels rejection...it's about Israels turning back to God and that makes harmonizing sense....the saved Church entering Tribulation with Christ...to suffer judgement and condemnation doesn't even make a point. To say caught up in the clouds...means a group of people, and air means spirits...truly sounds like a man's attempt to interpret historical symbols...is there anywhere in the Bible that these symbols are interpreted this way? We are usually given interpretation of symbols in some place. Where did we gather that clouds means people and air means spirits? Never heard of it. The work of and toward the Church is clearly dealt with and solved...but the work toward Israel...not only their coming back to their land but signifigantly, their spirtual renewal...is what comes out of the Tribulation...that's the climaxing point...the promises toward the Jews and Israel...there's no point made that the Church will or needs to go through tribulation and all the while Chist in you? If we suffer, he suffers, because he is in us...again...is he to suffer again?It's too easy....Christ will descend and the dead in Christ will arise first, and we which remain will be caught up together to meet him in the air....this is not the Second Coming...at the Second Coming New Jerusalem is established...after the judgements of the nations...the White throne ....etc...And how is it the Lord comes with ten thousands of his saints to execute judgement? if all his saints are still here?Stay if you want...but this is the hope we are given...and also that if we possess this hope it purifies us....the Tribulation is not a hope that purifies but that brings mortal fear. God has not appointed us to wrath...one will be taken and the other left...where does this happen if not the rapture? And what evil created this hope of Rapture meaning "caught up?" Or what evil prefers men not to have this hope? but rather have only the hope of terrible tribulation...and for what? So we can come to Christ because we learn that he is real.....when we already have accepted him? It's Israel that is in rejection not the church, and it's Israel that will come back to God during this period...not the church....

 

[Wakka]

I thought that the tribulation was a test of faith to sort out the bad flocks from the good flocks. AKA, make the lukewarm Christians choose sides.

 

[Wakka]

Matthew 24 1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25Behold, I have told you before. 26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. 45Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Christina]

(followerofchrist;39832)
I for one don't believe in the pre trib rapture but as to your post Kriss, I don't see how this is a matter of salvation. If you believe in the Pre-Tribulation rapture and it doesn't happen then you just go through the tribulation a little less prepared than those who didn't believe the pre-trib theory, thats all! How could it effect your salvation or lead you to the Anti-Christ? The only possible way I could see this happening is that someone would feel compelled to follow the Anti-christ during the tribulation because they have been in denial of the occuring tribulation because of the pre-trib rapture beliefs. And I wouldn't be suprised if that happens to a few people but there are many ways the ac will get people
ANTICHRIST WILL BE CLAINING TO BE CHRIST so if we do not have it fixed in our minds that antichrist comes firstno matter what lies he tells YOU WILL BE FOOLED this is a great delusion he will be so convincing play his role that God even had to shorten the time or even the Elect would be fooled (if possable) Satan will do miracles and wonders he will come peacfully he will heal the deadly wound God tells us he will be so convincing that the whole world will follow him and hate the two wittness's for preaching against him

 

[Christina]

(Wakka;39843)
I thought that the tribulation was a test of faith to sort out the bad flocks from the good flocks. AKA, make the lukewarm Christians choose sides.
Well only the ones that have it fixed in their minds that antichrist comes first will become part of the Elect. The tribulation seperates the wheat from the tares (the Elect overcomers/from the rest) If you read his Word you know he is coming in the 5th/6th trump Christ does not come until the 7th this is also told in the parable of the two left in the field The tares are gathered first we are to stay working (doing Gods Work) in the field (world) until the 7th trumpYou do not want to be the first taken that is when the fallen Angels will gather theirs Gods children wait as we are told.There is also a sybolic picture of this in Genesis when Noah sends out the Raven (black/darkness/Satan) before he sends out the Dove (Christ)God is good to us he tells us all if we let him and do not fall for lies of menPS its the millieum that is taught in.After Christ returns

 

[Wakka]

(kriss;39854)
Well only the ones that have it fixed in their minds that antichrist comes first will become part of the Elect. The tribulation seperates the wheat from the tares (the Elect overcomers/from the rest) If you read his Word you know he is coming in the 5th/6th trump Christ doe not come until the 7th this is also told in the parable of the two left in the field The tares are gathered first we are to stay working (doing Gods Work) in the field (world) until the 7th trumpYou do not want to be the first taken that is when the fallen Angels will gather theirs Gods children wait as we are told.There is also a sybolic picture of this in Genesis when Noah sends out the Raven (black/darkness/Satan) before he sends out the Dove (Christ)God is good to us he tells us all if we let him and do not fall for lies of menPS its the millieum the luke warm are taught in.After Christ returns
I'm sure the elect will be able to change the minds of some of the A/C believers.

 

[Christina]

Yes they will when they(the Elect. Mark 13:11) are called-up put on trail they are not to premeditate what they will say because the Lord will speak through them (just like pencost day)and the hearts of many will be changed also the Jews will realize that this is not the messiah when he creates the Abomination of desolation(mat.24) spoken of by Daniel a many of them will be savedI also have to believe that when the two wittness's are raised from the dead after three days that many more will be saved.11But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy GhostThis is the only time the unforgivable sin can be comitted and then only by the Elect (see whirlwinds study on the unforgivable sin)all other sins of blaspheme will be forgiven.http://www.christianityboard.com/unforgive...39697#post39697Did anyone notice that we are told the signs of the End in Math. Mark, and Luke and there was never any mention of any rapturesometimes whats not said is as telling as what is said.

 

[Siskim]

Wakka....I always thought that too...but have learned some things after 30 years recently at Liberty Univ. Christian college...Looking at what you just cited...Jesus comes what...in great clouds of Glory, "and every eye shall see him"....and all the judgements..White throne, goats and lambs, etc...All this obviously does not relate to Jesus coming as a thief in the night...one being taken and the other left, Imminent Return, because his return cannot be Imminent if the so far perfect Word of Prophecy will continue to come to pass...because we are told what things "Must come to pass" before his Second Coming...So do we throw out Imminent Return...and Jesus descending from the clouds and us being caught up together with him in the air? How does he come with 10,000's of his Saints if none are with him? Again....nowhere will we find the symbol of clouds being people and air being spirits/souls....we are caught up "In" the air...it didn't say we were the air...people are caught up in spirit? Think about it...if the true Church...the true believers have been already washed in the blood, justified in heaven, names written in the Lamb's book of Life, by a Perfect Salvation....not the lukewarm but those who are ready...be ready for in such an hour as you what...don't expect He comes...and two will be in the field and one taken...where do you see this in the Tribulation or after it?There is a reason people like you and I assumed the Tribulation was all about the Gentiles...a lack of knowledge! We have not given thought to God's covenant with Israel...or to the yet unfullfilled word of Ezekiel 11...not only the return of the Jews to the promise land but their spiritual regeneration....When and how do you think the Jews will again "Believe" in the Messiah and "Look" for His again coming? We have been under the impression that we all are the spiritual Jews...but yet god is talking about a specific group of people returning to a specific land...the one he promised Abraham...and having a spiritual rebirth...a coming back to the Lord in Truth....Yet what you are saying is that this Great time of Tribulation is just about lukewarm Christians. And this is saying that are Salvation is not sure...but yet must be tried. So then we cannot have the confidence we are promised...and this Great Salvation is not complete yet until we prove ourselves by this Tribulation...and if so, can some now be lost...and those I say who at the beginning of this do have their lamps trimmed and are ready? Does this mean that those who are ready...every single one...will surely withstand the Tribulation tests? It doesn't even make sense that God is going to so greatly try the redeemed. And you have joy in this theory? And are saying that the great delusion is the rapture? The great delusion indicates something evil...not something good. If we are all the spiritual Jews, which we are in a sense, does this make void what God is going to do toward the specific Nation of Israel and the Jews? The promise in Ezekiel? If you ever look at it in the light that this Tribulation is leading up to the spiritual rebirth of the Israel..the Jews...you can see alot more harmonization and sense. The Jews originally rejected the Messiah...then the Gentiles were grafted in...and accepted the work of the Cross...Salvation. You can see that the work of the Cross was a complete one and "IN" those who accept it....but Israel is not complete yet...If the Rapture is true...just as the Church was born "After" the Jews rejected the Messiah and Salvation...the work of the church will be completed and then God will deal with Israel...who he began with! The "Climax" is not about lukewarm Christians but about the spiritual rebirth of the Jews/Israel...and we are already seeing them coming back to their country but no sign yet of them returning to their Messiah...Just how is it going to happen that they return to the Messiah? As a side dish of the Tribulation? No...as the main point.Think about it. And also, the Latin word "rapto" from which rapture comes means...to be caught up"...not together...And also there were 4 Trumpets blown in the wilderness wandering to notify Israel to move out and break camp. Could the last Trump be a call to Christians to move out?We conclude based only on our own Gentile perseption...or the present day american church persection...forgetting the Great promises of God toward the Jews and Israel...we only think about us...so the Trib. has to be all about us....it's limited understanding and I know I've had it too...when I had no knowledge or thought given to the great plans toward Israel....God's promise to Abraham will be the climax...the Jews returning to their land and "finally" realizing that Jesus is the Messiah and finally tirning to him out of great tribulation...and He will answer them and come to save them in the end...and then think about the judgement of the goats and lambs...are these just christian and non-christian...yet the bible talks about being judged according to how people treated "these my brethren." And how are people going to treat Israel in this great day? Would you want to be a Jew in this time? Does it make sense that God will be watching to see how His people Israel will be treated? The 144,000 are Jews...think about it....I have heard a biblical college teach on the subject...make sense of things that we havn't had the knowledge to make sense of...except to say that clouds are people and air is spirits.Whoever has this hope in him purifies himself....what hope? the hope of Tribulation? We already ahve the hope of Salvation...so what hope is this? Is this scripture just saying the hope of Salvation which we already have? It seems to be a particular secluded scripture about a particular hope...is everyone being purified who is a Christian or so called christian by the hope of Salvation? Do we hope for something we already have? Or is there another hope that "If" we have it...it purifies us? That's it for me...if it doesn't strike you to learn more about the signifigance of the Tribulation to Israel, so that all we can see is that the Saved need to be tried and Christ to suffer again, who lives in us....yet not the Jews in general because as yet they do not believe...then I'm not going to argue against a brick wall...I don't see the great hope and joy if the saved are coming into a great time of testing and tribulation...I'd rather die first and avoid it...yet apparently some get to die and go to heaven while others get to go through tribulation and see if they can make it...after they are already truly saved....it doesn't even make sense.

 

[His By Grace]

Well said, Siskim. I kept thinking the whole time I was reading through Kriss's post that it just didn't seem quite right. I know she fully believes what she says and puts her whole heart into it, but I don't think it is correct doctrine because of the things you stated above. Also, if you look at 1 Thess. verse 7 the He is capitalized both times in the verse. That means they are referring to God, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit-not Satan. The Holy Spirit will be removed from earth during trib. time is what it looks like to me, who is the restraining force that is holding things together for us right now. Also, Jesus' own words like you said say, "NO MAN KNOWS". Jesus said he didn't even know-only the Father when He may come back. This would mean we can't calculate down to the hour. This teaching goes against more scriptures than with the scriptures, in what I can see. I have wondered if there would be a mid-trib., but what you said about the Jews makes a lot of sense. Thanks for that information.

Regardless, Jesus told us to watch and pray! We had better be ready.We can't sluff off and not use our Christian radars!

 

[Siskim]

Glad for you HisbyGrace that you can see. There's really no good point in going on with this because this kinda obsession in any of us, me too, is not what God wants us doing. Reminds me of the pharisees or "Religious" crowd that spent all their time debating the law...and bringing to Jesus tests to see if he was smart enough to answer correctly...according to the Law...If he agreed with the Law then the woman should have been stoned...if he said not to stone her, he denied the Law of the God he claimed was his Father...This is the spirit I feel in all this debating every issue under the sun...what does it profit? It does create dissention and division...I'm sure that whether we believe in the rapture or not, if we are God's because we have accepted His Son and Spirit, we will not miss heaven because of any misinterpreted doctrines such as this...it's not a matter of Salvation. So let every man work out his own Salvation right?I see it clearly...that's all I can say...the points made here were not addressed but a new forum created on the subject that starts from square one again...without answering what's been brought up here...I think we all possess atleast a little pride...I have to be right! I know it's in me too...and it's a temptation to want to keep on, but I am knowing it's not profitable...I like your spirit lady...I hope for you that the things in your life work out...I know you are between a rock and a hard place...I feel bad for you. But sister have hope...in the God of all Hope! the god who makes a way where their seems to be done! Who daily loads us with benefits...even if things aren't so great in our situations in life....Lean on Him...One lady preaching once...who had been so heavy in drugs and men and been beaten and who knows what....she said..."God is my husband!" And you could see and feel that she had a great reason for feeling this way and really did lean on God in that kinda way. You can too. In any storm that rages...there is shelter for you, and comfort and strength...even Joy unspeakable and peace that passess all understanding...even if I make my bed in hell!If you do ever need, write to me [email protected] think you do need...because of what you are lacking at home...that you have said before...if just people to talk to...I will remember to pray for you.............love kim

 

[setfree]

Has any one bothered to search out the Old Testament for pictures of the rapture? Have you heard the saying "Old Testament-Conceals, New Testament- reveals"Abraham and the Jews had earthly promises. The church has heavenly promises. I have seen pictures of it in Exodus 19, also in the Law of Harvest and First fruits.In the Old Testament they had laws about how they were to harvest. First Fruits were marked and gathered first.Then the main harvest.Last was the four corners of the field-the gleaning.The seven feast also has pictures In Col. 2;16-17 it says they are a shadow of things to come. They have a practical and prophetic meaning. The Jewish wedding is loaded with pictures of the events of the bride(church) and her groom(Jesus).

 

[Christina]

Pictures are not scripture and no one ever said there was no harvest its just not untill the second coming of Christ I repeat there is and never has been any pre tribulation Rapture in Gods Word new testament or Old testament None only the coming of the Loird at the 7th trump. That is the harvest