What does Colossians 1:16 mean when it says "For by him were all things created..."

[Matthias]

John also says no one has seen God

Why do you think that’s a mystery?

Don’t you believe that John believed Jesus is the second person of the Trinity and that many people saw him?

Don’t you believe that John thought Jesus was walking around and talking to people in the days of the Old Testament?

 

[Matthias]

That is straight out calling Christ a liar!!!

Get a hold of yourself. No Christian calls Jesus a liar.

I didn’t call Jesus a liar. I straight out called Jesus a man who thinks like what he is, a Jew.

He plainly asked the Father to glorify Him in his humanity with the glory He had with the Father before creation.

What you need to understand is that Christ set aside His expression of Deity, lowering Himself to man with the purpose of redeeming mankind. He emptied Himself of His power as God and the acknowledgement of being God and submitted Himself totally to the Holy Spirit.

All the miracles that were performed were not by His power, it was by the power of the Holy Spirit through Him. Christ didn't know what was around the next corner unless the Holy Spirit told Him. He totally submitted Himself to God the Holy Spirit in complete obedience, all the way to the Cross!

When He was asked when He would return, He said no man knows, including Himself, being a man! He didn't know! But you can rest assured He knows now!

 

[Charlie24]

Get a hold of yourself. No Christian calls Jesus a liar.

I didn’t call Jesus a liar. I straight out called Jesus a man who thinks like what he is, a Jew.

NO! You said Christ was created at His virgin birth. I have shown you that is not correct.

It seems you find it very easy to deny plain Scripture, Matthias.

 

[Matthias]

NO! You said Christ was created at His virgin birth. I have shown you that is not correct.

I’m showing you that you aren’t thinking the way believing Jews think.

It seems you find it very easy to deny plain Scripture, Matthias.

You’ve also said that it doesn’t matter and you believe we’re united.

 

[Charlie24]

I’m showing you that you aren’t thinking the way believing Jews think.



You’ve also said that it doesn’t matter and you believe we’re united.

United in faith not that Christ is God Almighty. You say some very troubling things, Matthias.

I'm here to show you Christ was not created!

 

[Matthias]

United in faith not that Christ is God Almighty.

We aren’t united in faith.

You say some very troubling things, Matthias.

If we were united in faith you wouldn’t be saying that.

I'm here to show you Christ was not created!

Scripture shows me that he was.

 

[Charlie24]

We aren’t united in faith.



If we were united in faith you wouldn’t be saying that.



Scripture shows me that he was.

How can a being be created who was with the Father before you say He was created?

Where is the evidence in Scripture that Christ was created?

Unless of course, you deny the Scripture I have shown you.

Or the possibility that you have no idea of what you're talking about!

 

[Matthias]

How can a being be created who was with the Father before you say He was created?

Ideal preexistence.

Where is the evidence in Scripture that Christ was created?

Jesus was begotten and conceived.

Unless of course, you deny the Scripture I have shown you.

I don’t deny any scripture.

Or the possibility that you have no idea of what you're talking about!

We obviously aren’t united.

 

[Matthias]

“… the Trinitarian sense should not be here applied to the term Son of God. The notion of the pre-existence of Jesus Christ, as the eternal Son of God, is quite foreign to the context.”

(Frederick Louis Godet, Commentary on the Gospel of Luke, p. 91)

The “Trinitarian sense,” acknowledges / concedes our trinitarian scholar, is foreign to the context of the birth narrative.

 

[Charlie24]

Ideal preexistence.



Jesus was begotten and conceived.



I don’t deny any scripture.



We obviously aren’t united.

Christ was changed from one form to another, from whatever He was, assumed to be spirit form, to a man.

He is the "only begotten" of the Father, which is a direct referral to His humanity.

As I have said before, no one knows how the Holy Spirit did this, but we know He existed before His humanity.

He was not created at His virgin birth, nor was He ever created.

John plainly said "In the beginning was the Word" and we know that Word became flesh and dwelled with us.

We know that Jesus existed as the Word in the beginning. This beginning is not meaning that Christ and the Father had a beginning, but that John was referring to the beginning of creation.

In Heb. 7:3 when Paul spoke of Melchisedec comparing Him to Christ the High Priest, he said,

“Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.”

Here is a direct reference to Christ, the Son of God, having no beginning and no end.

He was conceived of the Holy Spirit having no earthly father.

Mary's womb was just a shelter and has nothing to do with His dna, without a mother.

He had no earthly descent.

And He has no beginning of days or end of days.

 

[Matthias]

Christ was changed from one form to another, from whatever He was, assumed to be spirit form, to a man.

He is the "only begotten" of the Father, which is a direct referral to His humanity.

As I have said before, no one knows how the Holy Spirit did this, but we know He existed before His humanity.

He was not created at His virgin birth, nor was He ever created.

John plainly said "In the beginning was the Word" and we know that Word became flesh and dwelled with us.

We know that Jesus existed as the Word in the beginning. This beginning is not meaning that Christ and the Father had a beginning, but that John was referring to the beginning of creation.

In Heb. 7:3 when Paul spoke of Melchisedec comparing Him to Christ the High Priest, he said,

“Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.”

Here is a direct reference to Christ, the Son of God, having no beginning and no end.

He was conceived of the Holy Spirit having no earthly father.

Mary's womb was just a shelter and has nothing to do with His dna, without a mother.

He had no earthly descent.

And He has no beginning of days or end of days.

Thanks. I know what you believe, having believed it once myself.

 

[Charlie24]

Thanks. I know what you believe, having believed it once myself.

Teaching that Christ was created in not something you can say and just pass it off.

Whether you realize it or not, this is a very serious accusation!

I suggest if that you believe that, let's settle it right now.

 

[RLT63]

Why do you think that’s a mystery?

Don’t you believe that John believed Jesus is the second person of the Trinity and that many people saw him?

Don’t you believe that John thought Jesus was walking around and talking to people in the days of the Old Testament?

No one has seen the Father. Moses only saw his back parts but somehow spoke to him face to face even though no one can see his face and live.

 

[Matthias]

Teaching that Christ was created in not something you can say and just pass it off.

That’s why I’m continuing to comment on it; providing support from trinitarian concessions.

Whether you realize it or not, this is a very serious accusation!

I suggest if that you believe that, let's settle it right now.

I’ve said all along that it’s serious and that it matters.

 

[Matthias]

No one has seen the Father. Moses only saw his back parts but somehow spoke to him face to face even though no one can see his face and live.

Seeing the Father’s back parts is seeing the Father. “Face to face” is an idiom. As you point out, no human can see the Father’s face, at least not as long as we are mortal, and live.

I believe all of God’s sons and daughters will see our God and Father’s face once we are changed from mortal to immortal.

 

[Charlie24]

That’s why I’m continuing to comment on it; providing support from trinitarian concessions.



I’ve said all along that it’s serious and that it matters.

Well, show me from Scripture why you believe Christ was created.

You can't just say the trinitarians are wrong and that Christ is not Deity, and that He was created.

You've got to bring something to the table!

If you have anything to bring to the table!

 

[RLT63]

Seeing the Father’s back parts is seeing the Father. “Face to face” is an idiom. As you point out, no human can see the Father’s face, at least not as long as we are mortal, and live.

I believe all of God’s sons and daughters will see our God and Father’s face once we are changed from mortal to immortal.

Then Moses is an exception.

 

[Matthias]

Then Moses is an exception.

Among human persons, yes. He saw the Father’s back parts.

A human person is now sitting next to the Father in heaven. He surely has seen the Father too.

 

[Wrangler]

Christ never said He wasn't God! He said that He was the Son of God, which would make Him equal with God.

Paul said of Him in Phil. 2:6
"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"

No sir! Do you see the twisted NOT in the sentence? You've turned a DOES NOT into a DOES.

The expression "Son of God" is a title not a biological relationship. Jesus is not called son of the father. He is the son of the Supreme Being, in his wholeness, in his unitarian nature. We too are children of God. It does not make us God.

 

[Charlie24]

No sir! Do you see the twisted NOT in the sentence? You've turned a DOES NOT into a DOES.

The expression "Son of God" is a title not a biological relationship. Jesus is not called son of the father. He is the son of the Supreme Being, in his wholeness, in his unitarian nature. We too are children of God. It does not make us God.

"Being in the form of God" alone makes Him Deity! I'm thinking it's you who is twisting the Scripture.

Maybe you don't think He is God but the Jews attempted to stone Him when He said He was the Son of God, saying to Him, you make yourself equal with God!

But I suppose the JW's know more about it than Christ's own people.