What does Colossians 1:16 mean when it says "For by him were all things created..."

[Aunty Jane]

Perhaps you just traded one charade for another.

I have no doubt that many have done that.....the devil will never allow the truth to look like the truth. His propaganda works on those who cannot, or who don’t want to comprehend the big picture.

I didn’t just look at the words, but also the actions of those who present themselves as Christ’s disciples. If you don’t have the actions to backup your claims, you invalidate them.

There are tell-tale signs that people are ‘all talk’, but have no follow-up with “doing” what Christ said to do, and refraining from what Christ said not to do.

Let me give you a couple of examples....

Matthew 5:43-47.... “You heard that it was said: ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise on both the wicked and the good and makes it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those loving you, what reward do you have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? 47 And if you greet your brothers only, what extraordinary thing are you doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing?

How many “Christians” will support their governments in declared conflicts by joining the military and willingly participating in the bloodshed of their “enemies” or in tacitly supporting those who do so? We see the clergy right there at the battlefront, appeasing the consciences of those who are shedding the blood of their declared enemies, and telling them that God is on their side. They are the ‘good guys’....right? But are they?

Because patriotism is programmed (basically from birth) in many nations, defending their country is seen somewhat like the ancient Israelites defending their own God-given land in Bible times. God was with them and they defeated their enemies. But is it the same thing?

How many of those nations actually stole their land from its indigenous occupants with much bloodshed? And then treated the survivors as second class citizens in their own country?
Was their land “God-given”? Was God on their side? Did he sanction the bloodshed?

If a Christian is genuine in their commitment to Christ, then his words above would drive home the fact that there is no reason for a Christian to take up weapons of any description, whether for self defence or for war. There can be no intent to harm or kill. A genuine Christian will not even join the military because there is training with intent to kill. The intent to harm or kill is what makes it wrong. God’s law recognised the difference between premeditated murder and accidental manslaughter....yet it still held the manslayer accountable.

In the World Wars of last century, professed Christians in one nation killed professed Christians in the opposing nations because in joining the military, they lost their commitment to Christ and took on a commitment to their nation instead. The clergy supported their actions. We see today in the Ukraine conflict that they are both under the spiritual leadership of their respective “Orthodox” churches. (1 John 4:20-21) Catholics killing other Catholics. Divided loyalties are the devil’s most successful tools. Are the Protestants any better? Satan has been using this tactic from the beginning. Since Jesus said that he is the one who planted the “weeds”, should we be surprised? The “wheat” are in the minority. (Matthew 7:13-14)

The apostle Paul told us.... “For though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things. 5 For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are bringing every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ”. (1 Corinthians 10:3-5)

To refuse to be part of any “unchristian” conduct is the duty of all who genuinely “follow” Christ.
If you step back and look at Christendom’s involvement in political and religious bloodshed, dating back to its “birth” in the 4th century, it isn’t hard to see who the real Christians are.

Jesus also taught us to be “no part of this world” because of who is ruling it. (John 18:36; 1 John 5:19)
So for us this extends to all political issues.....we will not participate in the dirty business of politics by remaining “obedient to our superior authorities” (Romans 13:1....not breaking their laws and thereby being model citizens in whatever nation we find ourselves in) but always putting our allegiance to God and to Christ first. If we were to vote in a government, we would be accountable for what they did with the power we gave them, so we will not have anything to do with who governs our nation.....we already have a leader who is the best ruler for those who are his subjects. ‘His Kingdom is no part of this world’. (John 18:36)

Like the Christians in the first century continued to preach and teach Christ’s message and were arrested for doing so when the Pharisees forbade them to continue. What did the apostles tell them?....

“But someone came and reported to them: “Look! The men you put in prison are in the temple, standing and teaching the people.” . . . . .
27 So they brought them and stood them before the Sanʹhe·drin. Then the high priest questioned them 28 and said: “We strictly ordered you not to keep teaching on the basis of this name, and yet look! you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and you are determined to bring the blood of this man upon us.” 29 In answer Peter and the other apostles said: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men.” (Acts 5:26-29)

These are examples where JW’s practice what Christ taught. You will find us in prison only for conscious objection....and you will also find us out preaching the good news of the kingdom, because that is what Jesus commanded us to do. (Matthew 28:19-20; Matthew 24:14) Who else is doing this the way Jesus recommended? (Matthew 10:11-14; Acts 20:20)

There are many more ways that prove to me that JW’s are genuine Christians in actions, not just empty speech....
For me, actions speak louder than words....so that is what convinces me.....also the hostility towards us for simply doing what Christ taught us....another piece of evidence that we are doing something right. (John 15:18-21)

 

[Matthias]

He came into existence as a man. That doesn't preclude his existence before that.

Ideal preexistence. Brown is demonstrating in his commentary that literal preexistence isn’t what Matthew and Luke had in mind. Literal preexistence is unknown to them.

No literal preexistence = no trinitarian.

 

[Charlie24]

He came into existence as a man. That doesn't preclude his existence before that.

I invite you to read his book. He’s one of the top trinitarian scholars of the 20th century and his book is the most thorough study of the topic of which I’m aware.

“In the commentary I shall stress that Matthew and Luke show no knowledge of preexistence; seemingly for them the conception was the beginning (begetting) of God’s Son.”

(Raymond E. Brown, The Birth of The Messiah, p. 31)

I disagree with the scholar, totally and completely! I would like to know what Scripture he took that from.

 

[Matthias]

I disagree with the scholar, totally and completely!

I agree with the trinitarian scholar on this point, totally and completely! Because he agrees with me? No. Because he’s telling us accurately and precisely what Luke (and Matthew) actually wrote.

The scholar himself still believes in literal preexistence. He couldn’t be a trinitarian if he didn’t. His point is simply that Matthew and Luke don’t. They weren’t trinitarians.

I would like to know what Scripture he took that from.

Luke 1:35.

 

[Charlie24]

I agree with the trinitarian scholar on this point, totally and completely! Because he agrees with me? No. Because he’s telling us accurately and precisely what Luke (and Matthew) actually wrote.

The scholar himself still believes in literal preexistence. He couldn’t be a trinitarian if he didn’t. His point is simply that Matthew and Luke don’t. They weren’t trinitarians.



Luke 1:35.

I would like to ask that guy some questions. For example, how could they not know of His pre-existence when all the disciples were standing there and heard Him say, "now Father glorify me with the glory I had with You before the world was?

 

[Matthias]

I would like to ask that guy some questions. For example, how could they not know of His pre-existence when all the disciples were standing there and heard Him say, "now Father glorify me with the glory I had with You before the world was?

He’s dead. He believed what you believe in so far as the two of you both believe in literal preexistence. He’s showing us in his analysis that what you and he believe is not what they believed.

“The fact that Matthew can speak of Jesus as ‘begotten’ (passive of gennan) in 1:16, 20 suggests that for him the conception through the agency of the Holy Spirit is the becoming of God’s Son.

(Raymond E. Brown, The Birth of the Messiah, p. 140)

The becoming of God’s Son is the coming into existence or being of God’s Son.

Brown himself doesn’t believe that God’s Son came into existence. He’s showing us that that’s what Matthew wrote and believed.

 

[Matthias]

On John 17:5, I recommend to readers the writing of H.H. Wendt. I’ll look it up and post it for the reader’s convenience.

 

[Charlie24]

He’s dead. He believed what you believe in so far as the two of you both believe in literal preexistence. He’s showing us in his analysis that what you and he believe is not what they believed.

“The fact that Matthew can speak of Jesus as ‘begotten’ (passive of gennan) in 1:16, 20 suggests that for him the conception through the agency of the Holy Spirit is the becoming of God’s Son.)

(Raymond E. Brown, The Birth of the Messiah, p. 140)

Well, I wish the fellow wasn't dead, so I could tell him that Begotten is referring to His humanity, God becoming man. From one form of being to another.

As I have shown you they had to know of His pre-existence.

 

[Matthias]

Well, I wish the fellow wasn't dead, so I could tell Him that Begotten is referring to His humanity, God becoming man. From one form of being to another.

Brown was a trinitarian and regarded as one of the best scholars trinitarianism has ever produced. He agreed with what you just said. Read his writings. He’s trinitarian to the core.

As I have shown you they had to know of His pre-existence.

I don’t agree with your conclusion. Because it doesn’t agree with what I believe? No. Because it doesn’t agree with what those who wrote believed.

 

[Charlie24]

Brown was a trinitarian and regarded as one of the best scholars trinitarianism has ever produced. He agreed with what you just said. Read his writings. He’s trinitarian to the core.



I don’t agree with your conclusion. Because it doesn’t agree with what I believe? No. Because it doesn’t agree with what those who wrote believed.

Show me what was written in Scripture that leans you toward them (the authors) not knowing of the pre-existence of Christ.

 

[Matthias]

Show me what was written in Scripture that leans you toward them (the authors) not knowing of the pre-existence of Christ.

Brown (and other trinitarian scholars) will do it for me.

 

[Charlie24]

Brown (and other trinitarian scholars) will do it for me.

OK, I'll let it go, but I don't agree with them whoever they are.

One thing is for sure, John knew when he wrote, "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us."

If that's not pre-existence, ain't no cows in Texas.

 

[Matthias]

OK, I'll let it go, but I don't agree with them whoever they are.

You have a closed mind and you don’t think the way those who wrote scripture thought. You think the way the Church centuries later thought.

One thing is for sure, John knew when he wrote, "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us."

If that's not pre-existence, ain't no cows in Texas.

I recommend the Geneva Bible - the premier English language Bible of the Protestant Reformation - to you.

 

[Charlie24]

You have a closed mind and you don’t think the way those who wrote scripture thought. You think the way the Church centuries later thought.



I recommend the Geneva Bible - the premier English language Bible of the Protestant Reformation - to you.

I recommend that you read a variety of commentary from the great theologians and compare it to what Scripture is saying for the truth.

And a little less of the books from the so-called scholars.

You are right, I do have a closed mind on the pre-existence of Christ, and the knowledge of the authors of the Gospels in the same.

They wrote what the Holy Spirit gave them to write, in their own way. I know of one exception with Paul, he wrote, "But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment." 1 Cor. 7:6.

 

[Matthias]

I recommend that you read a variety of commentary from the great theologians and compare it to what Scripture is saying for the truth.

It’s a great recommendation and one that I’ve acted on for the past 40 years or so. I make the same recommendation to all readers.

Read widely. Read deeply. Read thoughtfully. Read critically.

And a little less of the books from the so-called scholars.

I call them “fluff” writers. I don’t enjoy reading them, but I do from time to time because that’s what JAT typically reads, if/when JAT reads. @RLT63 and I recently discussed it, if you’re interested.

The scholars I read are typically, and almost exclusively, trinitarian. They aren’t so-called scholars. They are the best minds in trinitarian scholarship.

You are right, I do have a closed mind on the pre-existence of Christ…

Even a child could see that.

…and the knowledge of the authors of the Gospels in the same.

That’s not what I said. That’s you talking about yourself.

They wrote what the Holy Spirit gave them to write, in their own way. I know of one exception with Paul, he wrote, "But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment." 1 Cor. 7:6.

 

[RLT63]

I have no doubt that many have done that.....the devil will never allow the truth to look like the truth. His propaganda works on those who cannot, or who don’t want to comprehend the big picture.

I didn’t just look at the words, but also the actions of those who present themselves as Christ’s disciples. If you don’t have the actions to backup your claims, you invalidate them.

There are tell-tale signs that people are ‘all talk’, but have no follow-up with “doing” what Christ said to do, and refraining from what Christ said not to do.

Let me give you a couple of examples....

Matthew 5:43-47.... “You heard that it was said: ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise on both the wicked and the good and makes it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those loving you, what reward do you have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? 47 And if you greet your brothers only, what extraordinary thing are you doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing?

How many “Christians” will support their governments in declared conflicts by joining the military and willingly participating in the bloodshed of their “enemies” or in tacitly supporting those who do so? We see the clergy right there at the battlefront, appeasing the consciences of those who are shedding the blood of their declared enemies, and telling them that God is on their side. They are the ‘good guys’....right? But are they?

Because patriotism is programmed (basically from birth) in many nations, defending their country is seen somewhat like the ancient Israelites defending their own God-given land in Bible times. God was with them and they defeated their enemies. But is it the same thing?

How many of those nations actually stole their land from its indigenous occupants with much bloodshed? And then treated the survivors as second class citizens in their own country?
Was their land “God-given”? Was God on their side? Did he sanction the bloodshed?

If a Christian is genuine in their commitment to Christ, then his words above would drive home the fact that there is no reason for a Christian to take up weapons of any description, whether for self defence or for war. There can be no intent to harm or kill. A genuine Christian will not even join the military because there is training with intent to kill. The intent to harm or kill is what makes it wrong. God’s law recognised the difference between premeditated murder and accidental manslaughter....yet it still held the manslayer accountable.

In the World Wars of last century, professed Christians in one nation killed professed Christians in the opposing nations because in joining the military, they lost their commitment to Christ and took on a commitment to their nation instead. The clergy supported their actions. We see today in the Ukraine conflict that they are both under the spiritual leadership of their respective “Orthodox” churches. (1 John 4:20-21) Catholics killing other Catholics. Divided loyalties are the devil’s most successful tools. Are the Protestants any better? Satan has been using this tactic from the beginning. Since Jesus said that he is the one who planted the “weeds”, should we be surprised? The “wheat” are in the minority. (Matthew 7:13-14)

The apostle Paul told us.... “For though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things. 5 For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are bringing every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ”. (1 Corinthians 10:3-5)

To refuse to be part of any “unchristian” conduct is the duty of all who genuinely “follow” Christ.
If you step back and look at Christendom’s involvement in political and religious bloodshed, dating back to its “birth” in the 4th century, it isn’t hard to see who the real Christians are.

Jesus also taught us to be “no part of this world” because of who is ruling it. (John 18:36; 1 John 5:19)
So for us this extends to all political issues.....we will not participate in the dirty business of politics by remaining “obedient to our superior authorities” (Romans 13:1....not breaking their laws and thereby being model citizens in whatever nation we find ourselves in) but always putting our allegiance to God and to Christ first. If we were to vote in a government, we would be accountable for what they did with the power we gave them, so we will not have anything to do with who governs our nation.....we already have a leader who is the best ruler for those who are his subjects. ‘His Kingdom is no part of this world’. (John 18:36)

Like the Christians in the first century continued to preach and teach Christ’s message and were arrested for doing so when the Pharisees forbade them to continue. What did the apostles tell them?....

“But someone came and reported to them: “Look! The men you put in prison are in the temple, standing and teaching the people.” . . . . .
27 So they brought them and stood them before the Sanʹhe·drin. Then the high priest questioned them 28 and said: “We strictly ordered you not to keep teaching on the basis of this name, and yet look! you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and you are determined to bring the blood of this man upon us.” 29 In answer Peter and the other apostles said: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men.” (Acts 5:26-29)

These are examples where JW’s practice what Christ taught. You will find us in prison only for conscious objection....and you will also find us out preaching the good news of the kingdom, because that is what Jesus commanded us to do. (Matthew 28:19-20; Matthew 24:14) Who else is doing this the way Jesus recommended? (Matthew 10:11-14; Acts 20:20)

There are many more ways that prove to me that JW’s are genuine Christians in actions, not just empty speech....
For me, actions speak louder than words....so that is what convinces me.....also the hostility towards us for simply doing what Christ taught us....another piece of evidence that we are doing something right. (John 15:18-21)

Most of the JWs that I have known are good people I also knew one who worked at the Police Department with me. He always scored the highest during firearms qualification. He did at one time request that he not be required to carry a firearm but the PD would not allow that.

 

[Wrangler]

Your drivers license is not a person!

As if being an image bearer makes us all God.

 

[Wrangler]

Karate is a form of martial arts. Karate is a martial art.

Right see the difference in ambiguity Between the first and second sentence?

 

[RLT63]

Right see the difference in ambiguity Between the first and second sentence?

Both statements are true. Being a form of something can be the equivalent of being that same something.

 

[quietthinker]

What does Colossians 1:16 mean when it says "For by him were all things created..."
I s'pose there's the element of; if you cook a meal you have the right to eat of it.