The very fact that God created all this, and us, and the fact of Jesus and the Cross, these speak volumes, do they not?
Much love!
What Does "God Is Love" Mean?
- Thread starter BarneyFife
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Much love!
There is a message also in the beasts, clean and unclean, who were saved. Just consider it and talk to God about it. Perhaps you will see what it is. God certainly knows!
I said that God knows, Not that I did. Yes, I have some ideas, but my ideas are somewhat incomplete or disjointed. When God gives me something to share I do, but I try not to share things simply because they are in my head. My Leader should always be the Holy Spirit! I have some messages regarding beasts and I believe that those on the ark are tied into it, but that is as far as I go for now. Give God the glory!
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
The problem that God had to deal with was the thing that God hated the most resides in that which He loves most.
Mankind's response to God's solution was to deny that love in order to retain what He hates.
And God still loves.
Mankind's response to God's solution was to deny that love in order to retain what He hates.
And God still loves.
I have heard this description before, sparse. Love in our culture of hurt defended people is something you do very occasionally to those close to you who are safe and to avoid hurt. Love is often a superficial I love you forever, meaning, I am infatuated with you today, tomorrow I might be infatuated with someone else.
Love is the cross. Love is giving up everything to let someone know their value and focus, and offer them life, the walk, the relationship between care, action and responsibility. So to say God is love, is to say all these things are in total balance and appropriate.
To know God is love, is to know He is worthwhile getting to know and listening to, because He is the ideal, our hearts desire, the essence of life and eternity.
So to summarise, these words are eternally profound and infinite, it is our distance from Him that makes it look sparse and dark, because of the darkness surrounding us.
It is why Paul and Barnabus where praising God in prison expecting to be executed the next day, to meet their maker. Once you have grasped the veil is just a veil between us and Him, you begin to see the power of love over dominion and the battle for significance and recognition. God bless you
Thank goodness, there is a solution to the madness.
John 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
Now it's our turn -- "freely ye have received, freely give."
Matthew 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
And I think we can sure we are not giving God pleasure when we are miserable ourselves or if our neighbors are miserable. I think we give God pleasure when we love our neighbors as ourselves and help make the world a less miserable place. Love wishes to please the other, does it not? It is not afraid of being punishment --- no, the joy is in giving pleasure to the other. How did Jesus feel when he heard this:
Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
I think Jesus was well pleased to hear it. And the end of the matter of men on earth? I think God will be pleased, and so will men.
Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Barney already addressed this, but let me give it another shot. The Bible (especially the Torah and Old Testament) often use the language of men to describe things in a way that men can understand. If we read God hates someone, it means the person will be feel as if God hates him. Things that happen to him lead him to think God hates him. If a man did those things to him, the man probably would hate him.
Similarly we ought not believe God has a finger the way men have fingers although the Bible says God used His finger. Rather we should believe God did something that if a man had done, he would have used a finger.
Aspects of God are also not always explicitly given -- and by that, I mean the names of angels are often left out. If an angel does something, it's because God told him to, so the Bible will often say God did it when an angel was involved. Sometimes it's two or three angels. Such names were omitted mostly so people couldn't start worshiping those angels individually as if an angel was God Himself.
The matter can become even harder to grasp. A fallen angel -- once part of the Unity of God -- can be called "the LORD." I know that sounds outrageous at first, but consider this:
Exodus 4:24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him.
Can we believe God "tried" to kill Moses and failed? No. We shouldn't believe that. We should not believe any idea that crosses our mind that suggests an imperfection in God -- the Unity which is God. The Jews say that was a demon, trying to kill Moses. If he could kill Moses, it would have meant Moses couldn't perform the task given to him by God to lead Israel out of Egypt. It's wasn't the loving God of Israel that wanted to kill Moses. It was a part of God that had splintered off and was working against the Unity of God.
Still not convinced?
1 Chronicles 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
If both passages are correct (and I think they are), that means "Satan" and "the anger of the LORD" are the same thing. I cannot believe God Himself tempted David to sin. That would be imputing imperfection to God.
James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
So why would Satan be described as the ""anger of the LORD"? I believe if we entertain sinful thoughts or urges in ourselves, God allows Satan to have power over us. We were inviting it, God allows it. We feel it as wrath; but it is meant to tell us something is wrong, we need to correct something in ourselves. Satan serves a purpose or God wouldn't allow him to exist. If we can spot where Satan has power, we can ask God to fill that area. We can correct ourselves. If we spot where Satan has power in this world, we ask God to replace him; but that has its limits since if men want Satan around, God will permit it. If God permits Satan to act because sinful men want it that way, we ought not pray against it. Let Satan do his jobs, let him buffet men. Some will tire of it and be ready to give it up and turn to God. I pray for these people. I do not pray for those who willfully want Satan in their lives. If they feel God hates them and Satan will help them, they will continue to feel "the anger of the LORD" until they tire of it. No, I do not pray for such people; and I see why Paul consigned some people to Satan. It can be a good thing in the long run.
1 Timothy 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
Very fine post, G. I think there's room for varying views on the subject of God and hate as long as they are tempered with the notion that He is not willing that any should perish, but that all would come to repentance.
Some scholars say that sometimes when the Bible talks of God hating someone (especially in the OT) it means that they have made themselves His enemy, which actually suggests (the modern view of) hate more on the part of the "someone" than God. And for those who shrink in horror at this idea: No, I don't remember where I read it.
Some people effectively equate "hate" with "anger." I believe God is capable of great and terrible anger. Parents get angry with their children, but no loving parent could hate their child. How could God order us to bless those who curse us, and pray for those who spitefully use us if He also calls us to be like Him while indulging in hatred Himself?
I believe when we read about God's anger, it means He has withdrawn from the situation and lets Satan take over. I base that mostly on how "Satan" and the "wrath of God" are both said to have tempted David to count the people. We may feel as if God is angry with us the malevolent way humans express anger, but that's part of the problem, isn't it? How can we love God if we think of Him as being like a vindictive human who flies into a rage when he doesn't get what he wants? Some people imagine to be like a human tyrant who issues orders and gets angry when people disobey him. I don't think so. God doesn't have an ego that can be hurt so. And why would God be angry with us for using free will? He gave us free will, so why be angry if we use it?
Now we read that God hated Esau. What does it mean? It means God avoided Esau to me. He left him to his own devices. God's love for Esau shows up elsewhere. When Israel was returning to the Land of Promise, they were told not to take the least bit of land from the Edomites because they were their brothers. What? God protecting the Edomites? Yes.
Deuteronomy 2:5 Meddle not with them; for I will not give you of their land, no, not so much as a foot breadth; because I have given mount Seir unto Esau for a possession.
God's plan involves every nation, tribe and tongue. All are meant to be saved. However, the time is not always right. Sometimes God lets time go by before the time arrives, the right time. So we also read that God showed up at Mount Seir as well as at Mount Sinai. It was hundreds of years, but Jacob's promise to meet Esau at Seir was finally kept.
Deuteronomy 33:2 And he said, The Lord came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
So we see God didn't hate Esau the way a malevolent human hates. God's Love was to let them alone for a while, until they were ready to receive some truth.
God's plan involves time. In large part, God "avoided" the Gentiles before Jesus came. If it didn't, Jesus could have arrived at once -- before Abraham, before Moses. Some things needed to change before the nations were ready to receive him. I praise the saints of the Old Testament for their part in preparing the world for the appearance of Messiah.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
@Giuliano ,@BarnyFife we see an aspect of what you are discussing in Revelation where we are told of angels holding back the four winds of strife. The strife I think are the troubles, civil unrest, violence and conflict we are beginning to witness today throughout society. It could also be the natural and man made disasters that are increasing in intensity and frequency. The"beginning of sorrows" spoken of by Jesus in Matthew 24.
I have seen some suggestions that these things are God's judgements on the lands that have forsaken Him. In a sense this is true, but I think what God is doing is more withdrawing His protection. Those angels are loosening their grip.
And I wouldn't put it past Satan to be responsible for many of the increasingly fatal disasters frequenting our lands... Even what we call "natural' ones. He's had a long time to study nature. If we can believe the NSA or NASA can create and change weather and climate... If man can create viruses... Then certainly Satan can.
In the war between Christ and Satan I would think there are certain rules of engagement. In the role of Job we see God telling the devil he is permitted to go only so far. You can be certain though that Satan would write happily destroy the entire church... And he would have the power to do so... if permitted. One angel killed 350,000 Assyrians to protect Jerusalem in one night. We are surrounded by angels both good and evil, all operating under certain limited conditions... But when the Spirit of God is completely withdrawn and Gods angels restricted to protecting only God's people, then society as a whole will be delivered into the devil's power to do fairly much what he l likes. But what he ultimately wants is worship. And for a short time he'll get that.
I have seen some suggestions that these things are God's judgements on the lands that have forsaken Him. In a sense this is true, but I think what God is doing is more withdrawing His protection. Those angels are loosening their grip.
And I wouldn't put it past Satan to be responsible for many of the increasingly fatal disasters frequenting our lands... Even what we call "natural' ones. He's had a long time to study nature. If we can believe the NSA or NASA can create and change weather and climate... If man can create viruses... Then certainly Satan can.
In the war between Christ and Satan I would think there are certain rules of engagement. In the role of Job we see God telling the devil he is permitted to go only so far. You can be certain though that Satan would write happily destroy the entire church... And he would have the power to do so... if permitted. One angel killed 350,000 Assyrians to protect Jerusalem in one night. We are surrounded by angels both good and evil, all operating under certain limited conditions... But when the Spirit of God is completely withdrawn and Gods angels restricted to protecting only God's people, then society as a whole will be delivered into the devil's power to do fairly much what he l likes. But what he ultimately wants is worship. And for a short time he'll get that.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
BarnyFife says:Is there something deeper than what these sparse 3 words say?[/Qoute\]
ALL of Jehovah’s attributes are sterling, perfect, and appealing. But the most endearing of all of Jehovah’s qualities is love. Nothing else draws us so powerfully to Jehovah as his love. Happily, love is also his dominant quality. How do we know that?
The Bible says something about love that it never says about Jehovah’s other cardinal attributes. The Scriptures do not say that God is power or that God is justice or even that God is wisdom. He possesses those qualities and is the ultimate source of all three. About love, though, something more profound is said at 1John 4:8: “God is love.” Yes, love runs very deep in Jehovah. It is his very essence, or nature. Generally speaking, we might think of it this way: Jehovah’s power enables him to act. His justice and his wisdom guide the way he acts. However, Jehovah’s love motivates him to act. And his love is always reflected in the way he uses his other attributes.
It is often said that Jehovah is the very personification of love. Hence, if we want to learn about love, we must learn about Jehovah. So we must, examine some of the facets of Jehovah’s matchless love.
ALL of Jehovah’s attributes are sterling, perfect, and appealing. But the most endearing of all of Jehovah’s qualities is love. Nothing else draws us so powerfully to Jehovah as his love. Happily, love is also his dominant quality. How do we know that?
The Bible says something about love that it never says about Jehovah’s other cardinal attributes. The Scriptures do not say that God is power or that God is justice or even that God is wisdom. He possesses those qualities and is the ultimate source of all three. About love, though, something more profound is said at 1John 4:8: “God is love.” Yes, love runs very deep in Jehovah. It is his very essence, or nature. Generally speaking, we might think of it this way: Jehovah’s power enables him to act. His justice and his wisdom guide the way he acts. However, Jehovah’s love motivates him to act. And his love is always reflected in the way he uses his other attributes.
It is often said that Jehovah is the very personification of love. Hence, if we want to learn about love, we must learn about Jehovah. So we must, examine some of the facets of Jehovah’s matchless love.
I think we have to connect the power of Satan to the evils in men. Dominion over the earth was given to man; and when men's imaginations wax wicked they are inviting the demonic into the world. It affects so many things. It creates harmful bacteria and viruses to evolve. It creates earthquakes by toying with the tectonic plates. It affects the weather, causing famines and plagues. I think we can go the list given by Jesus in Luke 21 (or Matthew 24) and say the increasing evil in men is causing all those those things. God permits it because we're allowed to summon the demonic.
A great deal of evil can be erased by allowing those forces to play out. Some innocent people may die, but God knows how to save them. Their prayers are also helpful two ways: The more people pray and the more they pray, the less power Satan has. Sinners are given more chances to come to repentance.
When evil gets too bad, so bad that it threatens to completely overwhelm the good, God will intervene. Thus the evil in Noah's generation got stopped. If it had continued, evil would have triumphed completely -- no Light would have been left on the earth. We also see Sodom being wiped out -- I think because their evil was so great that Isaac wouldn't have survived -- God's plan for salvation would have been over. Similarly:
Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
God in His Mercy does not allow sinners to completely destroy the world and make it a place so dark that even future generations could not be saved. Some of the "when" also depends on how evil is directed. If sinners could be content to kill each other and to offend only against themselves, God would not intervene. The situation is different when a sinner attacks a completely innocent person. The sinner has broken the Law of Free Will. As long as sinners choose to fight among themselves, they're doing what they want, they're not breaking the Law of Free Will. When they attack someone who is good and innocent, God will intervene if appealed to.
Notice how Jesus did not want to be killed secretly by the Jews. If he had to be killed, let the Romans do it. They did it. And by killing a completely innocent man, God was willing to remove the power they had. I'd say most of the demonic kingdom came tumbling down. You think the demonic is bad now? I think it was worse then. I think people then were so under the power of darkness, they couldn't come to the Light. When I read "great tribulation," I see it as hordes of demons being defeated. Oh yes, many remain, but I think Jesus got rid of the majority.
Demons seldom go after the completely innocent person -- they know if they do, they can be removed from the earth. Few openly disobey the rules but instead get humans to. But if someone has even the slightest flaw, a demon can spot it and go after it, trying to entice that person to sin.
I know my ideas are not ordinary, but let me continue. If I spot someone doing evil or even demonic, do I have the right to interfere? If someone has an unclean spirit which makes him ill, do I have the right to say, "I'm going to heal you"? I say no. That too is a violation of the Law of Free Will. You could even call it satanic. It is a trap to "resist evil" that way. Trying to boss Satan around when people have invited him into the world is asking for trouble -- people who go around thinking they have the right to bind any evil spirit they meet will probably regret it since they're a little satanic themselves. Even Jesus asked some people if they were willing to be healed. They had to agree to it first. He didn't always ask -- I think he knew they were willing when he didn't ask. When he asked, they were people sitting on the fence -- of two minds -- so he put the choice to them, "Choose this day. . . ."
Did he tell the demons who thought he might send them to the pit to go there? Why not? Well, they hadn't done anything that deserved being sent to the pit. They were in this world lawfully because people invited them. So when they asked to enter the pigs, Jesus said fine. I ask seriously if Jesus didn't bind every demon he met and sent it to the pit, why would Christians think they should try it?
Is there a demonic influence behind coronavirus? I'd say so, but it's not the real problem. The real problem is the sinfulness of men who invite the demonic into the world. I see malevolent or unfriendly spiritual forces behind weather disasters. Right now as I type, there are two hurricanes brewing in the Gulf of Mexico. We're having one of the worst hurricane seasons on record, perhaps it will wind up the worst. I don't blame the Devil for it though. I don't blame the malevolent spiritual forces. The fault lies with us -- people. We have the authority to exercise dominion and we are abusing that authority to wreck the planet -- corrupting nature itself at times. Disasters are to be expected when the level of wickedness becomes too great. I don't blame God or Satan. It's people. People need to repent. We read that the ground was cursed because of what Adam did. Do we think we too might be capable of doing things which cursed the very ground we walk on?
Did God Himself curse the ground, or did he inform Adam it was cursed? I think the latter. Blessings and curses do not both come from God. It cannot be. God was informing Adam of what he had made happen. Adam did it, not God; but the person who thinks maybe God curses could read the passage to mean God cursed the ground.
Genesis 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Both blessing and cursing can come from men's mouths; but it should not be, and I find it impossible to believe both curses and blessings come from the mouth of God.
James 3:10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Much could be said in response to the above. I have personally been confronted and threatened by demon possessed people, both of whom were friends but had gotten involved in stuff they should have stayed clear of. So yeah, I understand where you're coming from.
Just to get things back to God's love, but still related to the warfare we are discussing, I was reminded this morning of Israel's captivity by Babylon. In Daniel 1 we read,
KJV Daniel 1
2 And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, with part of the vessels of the house of God: which he carried into the land of Shinar to the house of his god; and he brought the vessels into the treasure house of his god.
Pagan Nations in those days attributed their power and glory to their gods. Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Rome, all praised their gods and have thanks to them whenever they did well in battle, or were doing well financially or agriculturally etc. The better they did, the more powerful their gods must be.
Israel when coming out of Egypt very quickly gathered a reputation for having a God capable of doing great things.
KJV Joshua 2
9 And she said unto the men, I know that the LORD hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you.
10 For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red sea for you, when ye came out of Egypt; and what ye did unto the two kings of the Amorites, that were on the other side Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom ye utterly destroyed.
11 And as soon as we had heard these things, our hearts did melt, neither did there remain any more courage in any man, because of you: for the LORD your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath.
Israel's God was a God to be reckoned with. But in the time of Daniel, the true God allowed His own reputation to be destroyed in favor of His overall plan to save mankind and preserve a people through whom He could bring forth the Messiah. And Jesus took that same self sacrificial concept further by allowing himself to be killed for our sake. That's the definition of God's love. Self sacrifice. And so different from our own.
KJV Philippians 2
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
I think this could be extended to the current world in which we live where God is willing to forgo reputation and willing to even lose some battles knowing that by doing so His love, grace, and mercy will be made known and the war ultimately won.
Which brings us to the discussion of Eternal torment now raging... Does eternal torment really bring ultimate victory to God or is it, if true, a capitulation to sin giving rebellion and evil ultimate dominance by preserving it in immortal splendor?
It's hard for me to discern why they threatened you. I think perhaps it wasn't the demons doing but the spirits of your friends interfering with you giving you the right to interfere with them. Remember the story from Acts?
Acts 16:16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.
I don't think that was the "spirit of divination" speaking. I think it was the woman -- the real woman -- interfering with Paul so he'd interfere with her and her spirit of divination. It took him a while before he took action.
Let me give you another way of looking this. Jesus said he would make Peter into a fisher of men. Ah, Peter was crucified. He was "bait." God used him and many others who were martyred as bait. It brought down the Roman pagan system. The more the pagans took the bait, the more right it gave God to intervene.
Psalm 44:22 Yea, for thy sake are we killed all the day long; we are counted as sheep for the slaughter.
If we have done nothing wrong but someone attacks us, we are in a position to help God save them. The power of the demonic can be broken if they break the Law of Free Will. We become the bait that helps God catch them. It may not feel like a blessing when it happens, but it is. You will not be permanently injured but you've helped God by being willing to be the tool used to save them.
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
If I return evil for evil, it won't work. It can look as if God is losing some battles, but I think is part of God's plan; and I think it will work if we do not despair and fall into returning evil for evil, thinking we must.
Although God is many things, compassionate, wrathful, merciful, patient, jealous, holy, austere, I think that due to the succinctness and sparseness of the expression, it is declaring a more intrinsic and over-encompassing characteristic.
That is, even when God is being wrathful or injurious, it is derived from love. All God's decrees, restrictions and prohibitions are derived from love. God's creation reflects His love, for I don't believe that He enjoys or needs us, as much as He intended for us to enjoy Him.
That is, all that God does and is, is motivated and executed by the principle of love, irrespective of the action or outcome itself.
We can therefore mutually, trust, embrace and rely on Him, and most importantly, love Him with all our heart, mind and soul.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
The first was a threat to life. The friend admitted to having met the demon in a dream/astral travel experience and was told to kill me.
The second, many years later, was a neighbor and close friend... The woman of a couple. He had to hold her down... She was very slight, he could easily carry a ,200 lb pig through the bush. He had to use all his strength to hold her back from physically attacking me... She was speaking an ancient extinct dialect unknown to her but vaguely familiar to her husband. Don't write off the supernatural.
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