What does it mean to be born again?

[ScottA]

That would be...Christ is the end of the law for righteousness...meaning the righteousness of obeying the law of Moses...basically what we call Judaism today. Do we need to become Jews to be justified in Christ? No. Paul was making a break with the law of Moses for new believers who were not of the Jewish persuasion.

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. Did the world stop sinning? Is everyone covered for their sins?... or is the point the resurrection life that Jesus gives to those who join Him in His death?

Okay, good, got it. No, one does not need to become a Jew.

But I am still not sure you have expressed your real objection. Is it that your idea of "the resurrection life that Jesus gives" does not fit with how @Behold has defined it? How so?

 

[marks]

Okay, so maybe @Behold could have worded the idea of "Christ is the END OF THE LAW..." differently, that Christ has rather "fulfilled" the law.

But what is your objection...that sin continued in the world after Christ paid the price? Or is it something else?

Romans 10:3-5 KJV
3) For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5) For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

Much love!

 

[Johann]

We just need to come to our senses in those times, the sooner the better, and return to trusting and serving, in knowing we are reconciled to God regardless of our lapses, because our reconciliation is in Christ, in Him alone, what He did for us on the cross.

Much love!

I get that @marks, understand I was most of my life indoctrinated by leaven, for me it is experiential, I full well know the just shall live by faith, so I am in the process of unlearning, relearning and put into practice the Imperatives of Christ in the sphere of the Holy Spirit.
But I'm not going to lie to you, it is not that "easy" and now I will have Behold on my case.
So you would disagree with Utley?
Also, I am a loner, and with the passing of my wife there is nobody to reason with on the fundamental core doctrines and I am forced to go to secondary resources to help me in applying those things I understand into my life.
Hence my tentative question to you regarding resources brother.

I am still tired these last couple of days, being up early in the morning and going to bed "early in the morning"

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

And God does not despise small beginnings brother, so bear with me, I am catching up.
J.

 

[marks]

Mark 3:28 KJV
Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

All sins shall be forgiven except this one.

John 1:29 KJV
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Jesus "bore away" the sin of the world.

2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

God has reconciled the world to Himself already, not imputing their trespasses to them.

Romans 5:10 KJV
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

We were reconciled to God while we were still His enemies.

2 Corinthians 5:19-20 KJV
19) To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20) Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

The next part is for us, "be ye reconciled to God".

Romans 5:10-11 LITV
10) For if while being enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life;
11) and not only so, but also glorying in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we now received the reconciliation.

God reconciled us to Himself in Jesus Christ, Who Himself carried away the sin of the world. It remains for us to receive that reconcilition.

God restored us to friendship, but not all want to be restored.

John 1:11-13 KJV
11) He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Much love!

 

[Lizbeth]

Religious outer man alert. See, you are in a snit. And you are not seeing my intent...to save you from the present condemnation that afflicts the modern churches (especially evangelical). You will go kicking and screaming because your faith is mixed in with a self-preservation. It isn't self-less. So you react in the flesh when it is questioned. Do you see how much we (you) rely on the flesh?

Honesty is better...as long as it leads to a deeper understanding. And with that deeper understanding we get the motivation to seek God.

Leave you to the Lord.

 

[marks]

I get that @marks, understand I was most of my life indoctrinated by leaven, for me it is experiential, I full well know the just shall live by faith, so I am in the process of unlearning, relearning and put into practice the Imperatives of Christ in the sphere of the Holy Spirit.
But I'm not going to lie to you, it is not that "easy"

It may be I come across differently, but I'm right there with you in this. I've had much to unlearn, and it's been quite the process, many years, and many difficult trials.

So you would disagree with Utley?

I'll need to revisit that.

Hence my tentative question to you regarding resources brother.

Not commentaries, but these are some that have helped me,

Mere Christianity, C.S. Lewis, theology, for it's establishment of the facts.

The Heavenly Trilogy (The Devil's Hunting Ground, Cold War in Hell, and Highway to Heaven) Harry Blamires, an allegory, as it redefines behavior according to God's standards. Helps to remove some of the blinders.

Beauty For Ashes, Zac Poonen, theology, for the wonder of God's Promise. This one really gave me hope!

Walk in the Light While There is Light, Leo Tolstoy, fiction, to teach me to number my days, and make the most of every opportunity.

These are the first that come to mind.

Much love!

 

[Lizbeth]

This is a real beauty. I'm hoping that others will respond to this post by @Behold. I'm hoping for some honesty in what people think of his position. I see his position like a cancer on evangelicalism. It infects practically everyone but most are afraid to speak out what they really believe.

@Lizbeth? @marks? @Johann? Anyone?

You've apparently already made your assumptions, so feel free to keep assuming. I haven't got the time or the stamina to do much more today and start parsing through Behold's posts.

 

[marks]

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

And God does not despise small beginnings brother, so bear with me, I am catching up.
J.

Let's just be patient with each other, even as you have been.

Much love!

 

[Johann]

The Jews were given the Law, and not the Gentiles, but the Gentiles had "the law written on their minds", that is, their conscience, which they likewise disobeyed.

That's not to say that the conscience of a fallen, corrupted by sin man is necessarily correct. Living trying to comply with your fleshy "conscience", well, here's an example, it's your fleshy conscience that plagues you with feelings of guilt and shame. These don't come from the new creation.

He who trusts in the Lord shall never be ashamed.

Before Christ, even without the Law, we still suffered under the Law of Sin and Death. We've all sinned, we all die, we were all dead in sin.

Romans 7:4-6 KJV
4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5) For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6) But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Law provokes sin. If God commands that you not steal, the flesh wants to steal all the more.

But now being delivered from the Law (internal/external), delivered through death, that is, baptized into Christ's death, we are to serve in newness of spirit.

Lapses in trusting and serving are only that, and God is delivering us from them all. He is even using them working them for our good, according to His promise.

We just need to come to our senses in those times, the sooner the better, and return to trusting and serving, in knowing we are reconciled to God regardless of our lapses, because our reconciliation is in Christ, in Him alone, what He did for us on the cross.

Much love!

I also believe we are not lawless since there is the law of Moses which condemns, the law of faith, the law of Christ, the law of the mind and the law of the Holy Spirit.

For the law of the Spirit in Christ Jesus hath made me free FROM the law of sin and death Rom 8.

 

[Johann]

Not commentaries, but these are some that have helped me,

Mere Christianity, C.S. Lewis, theology, for it's establishment of the facts.

The Heavenly Trilogy (The Devil's Hunting Ground, Cold War in Hell, and Highway to Heaven) Harry Blamires, an allegory, as it redefines behavior according to God's standards. Helps to remove some of the blinders.

Beauty For Ashes, Zac Poonen, theology, for the wonder of God's Promise. This one really gave me hope!

Walk in the Light While There is Light, Leo Tolstoy, fiction, to teach me to number my days, and make the most of every opportunity.

These are the first that come to mind.

Much love!

I'll see if I can get this in PDF format, thank you brother, I am going to hunt high and low for this.
J.

 

[Episkopos]

You've apparently already made your assumptions, so feel free to keep assuming. I haven't got the time or the stamina to do much more today and start parsing through Behold's posts.

What I see with Behold is a clarity in how one comes to believe what they do. There is a consistency there. It's better to take something to its logical conclusion...and see if it still stands up. You have challenged me with what I teach...and I appreciate it as it makes me delve in deeper. An example is the covering of sin in spite of light exposing darkness. This is by God's mercy for those who fear Him. But it made me look deeper into iniquity.

I thought we had a deeper connection based on our love of the truth. But your outer man is very strong...I know you don't see that. Your inner man is there...but there is a "big sister" in the way stopping you from advancement.

So how do I speak the truth to the inner man without offending the outer man? It can't be done. The inner man has to take a stand against the flesh. No one can do that but the person involved.

The outer man is like a monkey on the back of the inner man. When scripture verses are used to prop up the flesh...that's when the monkeys have taken over the zoo.

I hope you can allow your inner man to have some kind of veto over your outer man... so we can continue to discuss this...without religious presumptions and assumptions.

Peace.

 

[marks]

I'll see if I can get this in PDF format, thank you brother, I am going to hunt high and low for this.
J.

https://ia800807.us.archive.org/3/items/WalkInTheLightWhileThereIsLight_LevTolstoy/Walk%20In%20the%20Light%20While%20There%20Is%20Light%20-%20Lev%20Tolstoy.pdf

Mere Christianity (Book I, II, III) - C. S. Lewis >> this one says free download with sign-in.

 

[Johann]

It may be I come across differently, but I'm right there with you in this. I've had much to unlearn, and it's been quite the process, many years, and many difficult trials.


I'll need to revisit that.


Not commentaries, but these are some that have helped me,

Mere Christianity, C.S. Lewis, theology, for it's establishment of the facts.

The Heavenly Trilogy (The Devil's Hunting Ground, Cold War in Hell, and Highway to Heaven) Harry Blamires, an allegory, as it redefines behavior according to God's standards. Helps to remove some of the blinders.

Beauty For Ashes, Zac Poonen, theology, for the wonder of God's Promise. This one really gave me hope!

Walk in the Light While There is Light, Leo Tolstoy, fiction, to teach me to number my days, and make the most of every opportunity.

These are the first that come to mind.

Much love!

THE LAW OF HUMAN NATURE Every one has heard people quarreling. Sometimes it sounds funny and sometimes it sounds merely unpleasant; but however it sounds, I believe we can learn something very important from listening to the kind of things they say. They say things like this: ‘How’d you like it if anyone did the same to you?’–'That’s my seat, I was there first’–'Leave him alone, he isn’t doing you any harm’–Why should you shove in first?’–'Give me a bit of your orange, I gave you a bit of mine’–'Come on, you promised.’ People say things like that every day, educated people as well as uneducated, and children as well as grown- ups.Now what interests me about all these remarks is that the man who makes them is not merely saying that the other man’s behaviour does not happen to please him. He is appealing to some kind of standard of behaviour which he expects the other man to know about. And the other man very seldom replies: ‘To hell with your standard.’
Lol!
Found this one

 

[marks]

THE LAW OF HUMAN NATURE Every one has heard people quarreling. Sometimes it sounds funny and sometimes it sounds merely unpleasant; but however it sounds, I believe we can learn something very important from listening to the kind of things they say. They say things like this: ‘How’d you like it if anyone did the same to you?’–'That’s my seat, I was there first’–'Leave him alone, he isn’t doing you any harm’–Why should you shove in first?’–'Give me a bit of your orange, I gave you a bit of mine’–'Come on, you promised.’ People say things like that every day, educated people as well as uneducated, and children as well as grown- ups.Now what interests me about all these remarks is that the man who makes them is not merely saying that the other man’s behaviour does not happen to please him. He is appealing to some kind of standard of behaviour which he expects the other man to know about. And the other man very seldom replies: ‘To hell with your standard.’
Lol!
Found this one

I've read everything of Lewis I could get my hands on, which is a lot!

Much love!

 

[marks]

The textual evidence dealing with the question, "Is Paul referring to a saved or unsaved person in Rom. 7:14-25?" is as follows

1. Unsaved person

a. This was the interpretation of the early Greek speaking church Fathers

b. The following phrases support this view

(1) "I am of flesh," Rom. 7:14

(2) "sold into bondage to sin," Rom. 7:14

(3)"nothing good dwells in me," Rom. 7:18

(4) "making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members," Rom. 7:23

(5) "wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?" Rom. 7:24

c. The immediate context of Romans 6 is that we are free from the mastery of sin. The context of chap. 8 starts with "so then."

d. The absence of any reference to the Spirit or Christ until the close of this context (Rom. 7:25).

2. Saved person

a. This was the interpretation of Augustine, Calvin, and the Reformed tradition

b. The following phrases support this view

(1) "we know that the Law is spiritual," Rom. 7:14

(2) "I agree with the Law, confessing that it is good," Rom. 7:16

(3) "the good that I wish, I do not do...," Rom. 7:19

(4) "I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man," Rom. 7:22

Now here is something I did not noticed @Lizbeth

c. The larger context of Romans places Romans 7 in the section dealing with sanctification.

d. The obvious change of verb tenses from imperfect and aorists in Rom. 7:7-13 to the consistent use of the present tense in Rom. 7:14-24 imply a different and new section of Paul's life (i.e., conversion).

D. The more a believer strives toward Christlikeness, the more he experiences his/her own sinfulness. This paradox fits well this context and the personality of Paul (and, for that matter, most believers; for an opposite view see Gordon Fee, Paul, The Spirit, and the People of God).

A line from a Lutheran hymn by Henry Twells:

"And none, O Lord, has perfect rest,

For none is wholly free from sin;

And they who faint would serve Thee best

Are conscious most of wrong within."

These are the words from Bob Utley

I think Paul was struggling with his Pharisaic past which gave a structure to his presentation of "Law" and "sin/death." However, I am also impacted by my own struggle with temptation and sin after salvation. It has surely colored my interpretation. I think Gordon Fee, Paul, the Spirit, and the People of God, represents another valid Christian's experience and perspective. One thing I know, the tension or conflict between

1. old age - new age

2. old man - new man

3. law - spirit

has been dealt with in Christ! Victory is ours. Never focus on Romans 7 without noting Romans 6 and 8. Victory is ours in Him!

E. Sun (preposition in Rom. 8:32) compounds in Romans 8

v. 16 - sun + witness/testify

v. 17 - sun + heir

v. 17 - sun + suffer

v. 17 - sun + glorify

v. 22 - sun + groan

v. 22 - sun + birth pains

v. 26 - sun + take hold of

v. 28 - sun + work with/cooperate

v. 29 - sun +conformed

These compounds denote "joint participation with" or "cooperation with."

Your thoughts?

Is this the post you are asking me about? If I'm understanding rightly, yes I do agree. This has to do with the mechanics of our sancfication, if you will.

1 Corinthians 1:30 KJV
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

It shows us what our "inner experience of life" means, and how and why we are able to transcend the sinfulness of our flesh, and not serve it.

The Biblical model of our being conformed to the image of Christ doesn't have a built in timetable, however, there are a number of passages that allow it to be even a life-long process. Even Paul nearing the end of his life said he had not yet attained. But there is nothing in the Bible that I'm aware of that tells us we cannot gain mastery over our flesh continuously.

Paul also wrote that he was not the fit judge of himself, and just because his conscience was clean didn't mean he was right in all he did.

I hadn't stopped to realize there was so much sun- in that chapter! He truly has united us to Himself, and now we are together with Him!

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

Read everything in the BIBLE and keep reading it . That is all i can offer the peoples . Wanna learn pure truth .
READ that bible and stay IN IT . COME TO CHRIST while there still be time to do so and learn well .

 

[Johann]

I hadn't stopped to realize there was so much sun- in that chapter! He truly has united us to Himself, and now we are together with Him!

Lol! Yes Marks, our Father and our blessed Lord and Savior through the indwelling Holy Spirit sun- has truly "covenanted with us, in our stead" a covenant wich cannot be broken.

Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
Eph 1:12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
Eph 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
Eph 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

I find the ESV easier to read

God bless you brother
J.

 

[Johann]

The Biblical model of our being conformed to the image of Christ doesn't have a built in timetable, however, there are a number of passages that allow it to be even a life-long process. Even Paul nearing the end of his life said he had not yet attained. But there is nothing in the Bible that I'm aware of that tells us we cannot gain mastery over our flesh continuously.

This is eloquently expressed from you.
There is still hope for a "late-starter" such as I.
J.

 

[marks]

This is eloquently expressed from you.
There is still hope for a "late-starter" such as I.
J.

Many who are first shall be last, and last who shall be first. God has His Own way of looking at things.

Maybe you are exactly on God's timeline, maybe there was deep work to be done before His results would appear.

Pastor Chuck said, "I believe everything is preparation for something". That reminds me of one more, "Why Grace Changes Everything", Chuck Smith.

What if we haven't tanked everything in our weakness and faltering, what if God is bringing us along as quickly as it can work best for us? All the while knowing the perfect end result He will achieve?

Much love!

 

[Johann]

Many who are first shall be last, and last who shall be first. God has His Own way of looking at things.

Maybe you are exactly on God's timeline, maybe there was deep work to be done before His results would appear.

Pastor Chuck said, "I believe everything is preparation for something". That reminds me of one more, "Why Grace Changes Everything", Chuck Smith.

What if we haven't tanked everything in our weakness and faltering, what if God is bringing us along as quickly as it can work best for us? All the while knowing the perfect end result He will achieve?

Much love!

It isn't that I have been freed from the law that I might live any kind of way that I might want to live after my flesh, fulfilling the desires of my flesh. That is not what he is talking about at all. I have been set free from the law because it could never make me righteous. I have been set free from the law only to be married to another, even unto Jesus Christ, to be joined unto Him. The life that I now live is a life of bearing fruit, but the fruit of the believer's life is actually in many cases living by even a stricter standard than even the law would require. "For the love of Christ constrains me," Paul said. For the love of Christ I would not do that which would cause a weaker brother to stumble. For Christ's sake, married to Christ, joined now unto Christ in this new relationship with God in the new covenant through Jesus Christ does not mean that I am free to indulge in my flesh. Far from it. It means that I am bound now by even a greater law, the law of love. The law of love for Jesus Christ.

And now my life is producing fruit for Him. Whereas, I once was under the law as a standard of my righteousness or my standing before God, which could never give me a consistent standing before God. For those that are under the law are under the works of the law, and those who are in Christ are bearing fruit unto righteousness. For the fruit of the righteous life and that fruit is the proof of my relationship with Him.

"Ye abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ye shall bring forth much fruit" (John 15:4-5). If your life isn't bringing forth fruit, then it is saying that you are not abiding in Him and His Word isn't abiding in you, because fruit is the natural consequence of relationship.

Now the works could never get me a righteous standing before God. Jesus gave me a righteous standing before God, and because of that, because I am now married unto Him and have this new relationship with God through Christ, my life is bringing forth righteous fruit. Love with its characteristics of joy, and peace, and long-suffering, and gentleness, and goodness, temperance, now these things do not make me righteous, but they are the effect of my righteousness that I now have through my faith in Jesus Christ. I trust you can see the difference.

Yes, I can, Pastor Chuck!

Great questions Marks, all in God's time-- His will be done

Shalom LaChem achi (my brother)