What I actually believe -- sharing love of Christ

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Taken

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My view: Temporary spirit paradise does still exist, and will until after Christ's return, the Millennium, and Final Judgement. After the Final Judgement, believers in Christ go to a eternal place of ridiculous-mind-blowing-happiencess with God.

LDS views of after-death events are not your typical Christians (as you seen). "Heaven" as said by most Christians, could refer to either temporary spirit paradise, or post Final Judgement eternal place of glory.

A "thing" which is in the midst of Gods Paradise....is called the "Tree of Life."
Rev 2:7

The Tree of Life, is that which sustains Life.

The Tree of Life...was in the Garden of Eden, for Adam and Eve to Eat from, but they didn't before they were banished.

The Tree of Life was with Abraham's soul in Hell.

The Tree of Life is with living souls in heaven now.

The Tree of Life shall be in Gods Earthly Kingdom.
Rev 22:2

God Bless,
Taken
 

Jane_Doe22

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@Blueberry you highlighted some of your list, so I'll go address those points in brief, just cause I'm guessing you don't want to read a book here. If you want elaboration on any point, or the way in which the crap website is misrepresenting things (like talking about actual things in context), feel free to ask.

vol. 1 p. 41 No better man ever lived than Joseph Smith
Not remotely Mormon belief.
vol. 3 p. 93 God create men to become Gods
The actual Mormon belief: through Christ man cane become like God. We never replace God. Good info source: Becoming Like God
vol. 4 p 53-54 Blood of Jesus doesn't cover all sins (your own blood must atone).
Not remotely Mormon belief.
vol. 7 p. 333 God was once a man like us. There never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds.
See earlier post.
vol. 13 p. 95 BYs sermons are scripture
Not remotely Mormon belief.
vol. 5 p. 88 All will some day look upon Joseph Smith as a God
Not remotely Mormon belief.
vol. 5 p. 167 Christianity is a pack of nonsense
Not remotely Mormon belief.
vol. 7 p. 290-291 Cain's mark: a flat nose and black skin. Blacks are uncomely, low, wild and deprived of all blessings of intelligence. They are
vol. 10 p. 110 White who marry blacks - death on the spot - it will always be so!
vol. 22 p. 304 Blacks are Devil's representatives on earth
vol. 1 p. 62-63 Negroes from degraded parents and less intelligent than others
Not remotely Mormon belief.

If Brigham Young lived today, we would indeed call him racist. Living in the 1800's USA, they would call him normal. Americans overall were very racist in the 1800's. Not going to deny that remotely on any account. Thankfully we've improved on that regard.
 

Blueberry

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LDS use the 66 book Bible (KJV for English), but do not constrains God's words to just that. The Book of Mormon is also considered scripture, along with the Doctrine & Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price. Additionally, God (via the Holy Spirit) continues to speak to us individually and collectively (the collective messages being received through prophets/apostles).

I appreciate that you believe that I am genuine. I am. Will stick to these documents that you say are authoritative.

Doctrine and Covenants 130
Doctrine and Covenants, 130:22
22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

Doctrine and Covenants 132
Doctrine and Covenants, 132:20
20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

Where might we find these "collective messages received through the prophets and apostles"? I'd rather study them for myself than ask you or anybody else. Is Joseph Smith a prophet? Isn't he THE prophet? Should I not trust his writings? Do you, or do you not, believe that he is a/the prophet?

EDIT: Color for clarity
2ND EDIT: To point out that I did not underline any of the words. This is how I clipped and pasted it.
 
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Blueberry

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Doctrines & Covenants 17:4-6
Doctrine and Covenants 17
4 And this you shall do that my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., may not be destroyed, that I may bring about my righteous purposes unto the children of men in this work.

5 And ye shall testify that you have seen them, even as my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., has seen them; for it is by my power that he has seen them, and it is because he had faith.

6 And he has translated the
book, even that part which I have commanded him, and as your Lord and your God liveth it is true.

So is Joseph Smith a prophet of whose writings I can trust?
 

Blueberry

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https://www.lds.org/ensign/1984/06/the-most-correct-book?lang=eng&_r=1
“I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.” (History of the Church, 4:461.)

Is lds.org not a reliable website for Mormon doctrine?

EDIT: repaired faulty URL (cut when I meant to copy)
 
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Jane_Doe22

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I appreciate that you believe that I am genuine. I am. Will stick to these documents that you say are authoritative.
*Thumbs up*
Again, I'm going keep my comments here brief, but will be happy to elaborate on any point.
Doctrine and Covenants 130
Doctrine and Covenants, 130:22
22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

This is a good quote. Putting things in big/comparative picture here.

LDS and mainstream Christians both believe that God the Son has a body and spirit that inhabits that body.
LDS and mainstream Christians both believe that God the Spirit doesn't have a body, but is a person just of spirit.
LDS and mainstream Christians both believe that God the Father has a spirit, but disagree on whether or not that spirit also inhabits a body. There's also disagreement on interpretations on John 4.


Doctrine and Covenants 132
Doctrine and Covenants, 132:20
20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.
Great resource clarifying this Becoming Like God
It's about becoming like God, not about replacing God (that would be a laughable idea).

(Responding to next part in next post)
 

Blueberry

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Was going to ask about the Articles of Faith. But here it is from the official church website, lds.org...

Articles of Faith

"The Articles of Faith outline 13 basic points of belief of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Prophet Joseph Smith first wrote them in a letter to John Wentworth, a newspaper editor, in response to Mr. Wentworth's request to know what members of the Church believed. They were subsequently published in Church periodicals. They are now regarded as scripture and included in the Pearl of Great Price."

Articles of Faith, page 443
The Project Gutenberg eBook of The Artticles of Faith: A Series of Lectures on the Principal Doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ fd Latter Day Saints by James E. Talmage.
The LDS website is difficult to search here. I am content that the Gutenberg Project for free digitizing website of books is completely legit.
The page numbers are faint and in the right hand margin.

We believe in a God who is Himself progressive, whose majesty is intelligence; whose perfection consists in eternal advancement; the perpetual work of whose creation stands "finished, yet renewed forever;"[1253]—a Being who has attained His exalted state by a path which now His children are permitted to follow; whose glory it is their heritage to share. In spite of the opposition of all the sects, in the face of direct charges of blasphemy, the[443] Church proclaims the eternal truth, "As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become." With such a future, well may man open his heart to the stream of revelation, past, present, and to come; and truthfully should we be able to say of every enlightened child of God, that he "Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things."

Articles of Faith (Talmage) - Wikipedia
Here I see that this book is no longer used in Mormon schools nor is any longer on the non-scriptural readings list for missionaries. Took awhile to distinguish between the 13 articles and the book using the same name written by the then (1899) president of LDS.

My question would be how this could have ever been believed?! And if these revelations are progressive and ongoing, how do you know that what is currently believed is reliable and not going to change? This does not qualify as "not remotely" in my book.

I followed the reference link in the Wikipedia article (to lds.org), but the only thing there that it says that this is no longer used is the fact that I cannot find any reference to it. I wanted to determine when it was removed from the missionaries readings list.

People do not get these things from nowhere. Next, the difference in view of the Godhead, straight from official sources.
 

Blueberry

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The Trinity of traditional Christianity is referred to as the Godhead by Mormons

while some believe the three members of the Trinity are of one substance, Latter-day Saints believe they are three physically separate beings, but fully one in love, purpose and will.

God the Father

Mormons believe He has a human-like body but is immortal and perfected.


'Perfected'?? Was God the Father's "body like ours", once in an imperfect state?
 

Jane_Doe22

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Where might we find these "collective messages received through the prophets and apostles"? I'd rather study them for myself than ask you or anybody else. Is Joseph Smith a prophet? Isn't he THE prophet? Should I not trust his writings? Do you, or do you not, believe that he is a/the prophet?
This question has a lot of nuance in it to adequately answer it, so I'm making it it's own post. I'll start with the big picture then come back and hit each little question. Obviously these are my views and I acknowledge and respect other people have different views.

God Himself is the ultimate source of Truth. If you have any questions about anything or want to know if something's true, go ask Him. Don't just take anyone's spoken or written word blindly. Always start and end with listening to God directly.

Now, God does use flawed men to deliver His words and act as His prophets/apostles. This doesn't make any prophet/apostle automatically perfect in any stretch of the imagination-- the only perfect man who's walked Earth is Christ. Scriptures are full of examples of prophets/apostles falling short. So yes, these people serve God and deliver His words & are super-important, but that doesn't mean they're perfect and we shouldn't idealize them. Again, always start and end with asking God directly.

The above applies to any prophet/apostle, but since you asked about Joseph Smith I'll answer about him particularly (though this answer would be the same for any other prophet too).
1) Yes, I do believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet and served as God's mouthpiece (when specifically serving in that capacitance)
2) No, I don't believe that means he was perfect or that everything he said/did was perfect by ANY stretch.
3) No, I don't worship his nor am I his disciple (unless you also want to count me as Moses'/John's/Pater's disciple too). Those men are imperfect servants of the Master, not the Master Himself.
4) Nor do I blindly accept anything he himself said just because he himself said it. Those things I do believe are not because Joseph Smith said them, but rather because of my own asking God and studying things out. Always start and end with asking God directly.

Is Joseph Smith a prophet?
Yes.
Isn't he THE prophet?
I'm not sure what you're asking here. He's one of many prophets throughout the ages.
Should I not trust his writings?
Take a specific point and ask God Himself about it. Don't just blindly accept a man's words.
 

Blueberry

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[QUOTE="Jane_Doe22, post: 467005, member: 7910]
If Brigham Young lived today, we would indeed call him racist. Living in the 1800's USA, they would call him normal. Americans overall were very racist in the 1800's. Not going to deny that remotely on any account. Thankfully we've improved on that regard.[/QUOTE]

A lot of good mainstream Christians were abolitionists from the beginning to the end.

1800s??

Mormonism? Overview of Mormon Beliefs – Mormonism 101
What is the position of the Church regarding race relations?
The gospel of Jesus Christ is for everyone. The Book of Mormon states, “Black and white, bond and free, male and female; … all are alike unto God”
(2 Nephi 26:33). This is the Church’s official teaching.

People of all races have always been welcomed and baptized into the Church since its beginning. In fact, by the end of his life in 1844 Joseph Smith, the founding prophet of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, opposed slavery. During this time some black males were ordained to the priesthood.
At some point the Church stopped ordaining male members of African descent, although there were a few exceptions. It is not known precisely why, how or when this restriction began in the Church, but it has ended. Church leaders sought divine guidance regarding the issue and in 1978 extended the priesthood to all worthy male members. The Church immediately began ordaining members to priesthood offices wherever they attended throughout the world.

The Church unequivocally condemns racism, including any and all past racism by individuals both inside and outside the Church. In 2006, then Church president Gordon B. Hinckley declared that “no man who makes disparaging remarks concerning those of another race can consider himself a true disciple of Christ. Nor can he consider himself to be in harmony with the teachings of the Church. Let us all recognize that each of us is a son or daughter of our Father in Heaven, who loves all of His children.”

2006??
Nice that you finally came around to this. Hope further revelation doesn't cause it to reverse.
 
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Jane_Doe22

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Doctrines & Covenants 17:4-6
Doctrine and Covenants 17
4 And this you shall do that my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., may not be destroyed, that I may bring about my righteous purposes unto the children of men in this work.

5 And ye shall testify that you have seen them, even as my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., has seen them; for it is by my power that he has seen them, and it is because he had faith.

6 And he has translated the
book, even that part which I have commanded him, and as your Lord and your God liveth it is true.

So is Joseph Smith a prophet of whose writings I can trust?
See post #91.
https://www.lds.org/ensign/1984/06/the-most-correct-book?lang=eng&_r=1
“I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.” (History of the Church, 4:461.)

Is lds.org not a reliable website for Mormon doctrine?
That's an correctly reported quote. The Book of Mormon's focus is very much on talking about Christ. It doesn't mean that it's "above" any other book, just that it directly teaches that subject directly. Similar to how the OT does teach about Christ, but the NT is more direct about it-- that doesn't put the NT "above" the OT, just stating that it more directly teaches that subject.
 

Jane_Doe22

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Book of Abraham is a book in the Book of Mormon?
The Book of Abraham is part of the Pearl of Great Price, not the Book of Mormon. Text here if you're interested Abraham
This is a troubling passage...

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Joseph-Smith/Teachings/T6.html

Section Six 1843-44, p.310

I will now turn linguist. There are many things in the Bible which do not, as they now stand, accord with the revelations of the Holy Ghost to me.
On a quick glance of this link I'm not even sure what it claims to be quoting.
 

Blueberry

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This question has a lot of nuance in it to adequately answer it, so I'm making it it's own post. I'll start with the big picture then come back and hit each little question. Obviously these are my views and I acknowledge and respect other people have different views.

God Himself is the ultimate source of Truth. If you have any questions about anything or want to know if something's true, go ask Him. Don't just take anyone's spoken or written word blindly. Always start and end with listening to God directly.

Now, God does use flawed men to deliver His words and act as His prophets/apostles. This doesn't make any prophet/apostle automatically perfect in any stretch of the imagination-- the only perfect man who's walked Earth is Christ. Scriptures are full of examples of prophets/apostles falling short. So yes, these people serve God and deliver His words & are super-important, but that doesn't mean they're perfect and we shouldn't idealize them. Again, always start and end with asking God directly.

The above applies to any prophet/apostle, but since you asked about Joseph Smith I'll answer about him particularly (though this answer would be the same for any other prophet too).
1) Yes, I do believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet and served as God's mouthpiece (when specifically serving in that capacitance)
2) No, I don't believe that means he was perfect or that everything he said/did was perfect by ANY stretch.
3) No, I don't worship his nor am I his disciple (unless you also want to count me as Moses'/John's/Pater's disciple too). Those men are imperfect servants of the Master, not the Master Himself.
4) Nor do I blindly accept anything he himself said just because he himself said it. Those things I do believe are not because Joseph Smith said them, but rather because of my own asking God and studying things out. Always start and end with asking God directly.


Yes.

I'm not sure what you're asking here. He's one of many prophets throughout the ages.

Take a specific point and ask God Himself about it. Don't just blindly accept a man's words.

I trust the Bible.
 

Blueberry

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The Book of Abraham is part of the Pearl of Great Price, not the Book of Mormon. Text here if you're interested Abraham

On a quick glance of this link I'm not even sure what it claims to be quoting.

The Book of Abraham. The Pearl of Great Price is considered scripture?
 
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Blueberry

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See post #91.

That's an correctly reported quote. The Book of Mormon's focus is very much on talking about Christ. It doesn't mean that it's "above" any other book, just that it directly teaches that subject directly. Similar to how the OT does teach about Christ, but the NT is more direct about it-- that doesn't put the NT "above" the OT, just stating that it more directly teaches that subject.

Do you beleive that the Book of Mormon is more correct than the Bible? That the plan of salvation was lost and needed to be restored by the prophet Joseph Smith?
 
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Blueberry

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Great resource clarifying this Becoming Like God
It's about becoming like God, not about replacing God (that would be a laughable idea).

This??

Becoming Like God
"Latter-day Saints see all people as children of God in a full and complete sense; they consider every person divine in origin, nature, and potential. Each has an eternal core and is “a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents.”1 Each possesses seeds of divinity and must choose whether to live in harmony or tension with that divinity. Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, all people may “progress toward perfection and ultimately realize their divine destiny.”2 Just as a child can develop the attributes of his or her parents over time, the divine nature that humans inherit can be developed to become like their Heavenly Father's."

Who are my heavenly parents?
 
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Jane_Doe22

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Was going to ask about the Articles of Faith....
There are two different documents that are getting mixed up here.

1) "The Articles of Faith" which is 13 points of the faith of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. More or less a one page summery of the faith. They are considered also considered to be scripture. Link here: Articles of Faith 1 You reference them for the first part of your post:
Was going to ask about the Articles of Faith. But here it is from the official church website, lds.org...

Articles of Faith

"The Articles of Faith outline 13 basic points of belief of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Prophet Joseph Smith first wrote them in a letter to John Wentworth, a newspaper editor, in response to Mr. Wentworth's request to know what members of the Church believed. They were subsequently published in Church periodicals. They are now regarded as scripture and included in the Pearl of Great Price."

And then second half your book switches over to document #2--

2) "The Articles of Faith" book by Talmage.

Articles of Faith, page 443...<and onward>
Talmage was an LDS theologian, but his book is in no way considered to be scripture or standard study material.



Articles of Faith (Talmage) - Wikipedia
Here I see that this book is no longer used in Mormon schools nor is any longer on the non-scriptural readings list for missionaries. Took awhile to distinguish between the 13 articles and the book using the same name written by the then (1899) president of LDS.
Oh, I see you already figure the two different documents thing out! Cool.


My question would be how this could have ever been believed?! And if these revelations are progressive and ongoing, how do you know that what is currently believed is reliable and not going to change? This does not qualify as "not remotely" in my book.
It's actually pretty straight forward:
First authority is God Himself. Then you have scripture. And the unified voice of prophets and apostles. Random statement by themselves don't constitute a united doctrinal stance.
Here's a useful link for you: Here's Approaching Mormon Doctrine
 

Jane_Doe22

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The Trinity of traditional Christianity is referred to as the Godhead by Mormons

while some believe the three members of the Trinity are of one substance, Latter-day Saints believe they are three physically separate beings, but fully one in love, purpose and will.

God the Father

Mormons believe He has a human-like body but is immortal and perfected.


'Perfected'??
When Christ lived on this earth for 33 years, he had a body like ours-- it got sick, fumbled, etc. Then He was resurrected with a body different than ours -- a perfected one -- doesn't grow hungry or get tired or have any of the short comings ours do.

LDS believe that the Father likewise as a perfect body.

Was God the Father's "body like ours", once in an imperfect state?
Anything about the Father's history is speculation we just really don't know much about, and you're find individual LDS members who have all sorts of opinions on things. Individuals all of which are 100% in good standing.