Okay, thank you.
Did the Early Church, ie. the Apostles, preach something differently that something I said?
What I Expect In Heaven
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Okay, thank you.
Did the Early Church, ie. the Apostles, preach something differently that something I said?
I think you already know, or can surmise, what I think about that.
They were resurrection men, not immortal soul “go immediately to heaven when you die” men.
The Church has held both views in it’s history. The position you hold is the majority view now. It wasn’t always that way.
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I recently posted this in another thread. I think it fits well - in fact, better - in this thread. I’ve modified it, slightly.
A favorite book of mine is Immortality of the Soul or Resurrection of the Dead?: The Witness of The New Testament, written by Oscar Cullmann (a trinitarian, if it matters). I highly recommend it to all readers.
An excerpt from the Conclusion,
“On his missionary journeys Paul met people who were unable to believe in his preaching of the resurrection for the very reason that they believed in the immortality of the soul. Thus in Athens there was no laughter until Paul spoke of the resurrection (Acts 17:32). Both the people of whom Paul says (in 1 Thessalonians 4:13) that ‘they have no hope’ and those of whom he writes (in 1 Corinthians 15:12) that they do not believe there is a resurrection from the dead are probably not Epicureans, as we are inclined to believe. Even those who believe in the immortality of the soul do not have the hope of which Paul speaks, the hope which expresses the belief of a divine miracle of new creation which will embrace everything, every part of the world created by God. Indeed for the Greeks who believed in the immortality of the soul it may have been harder to accept the Christian preaching of the resurrection than it was for others.
(p. 59)
I paused here because the very next sentence in his writing touches - very lightly - on someone and something I mentioned earlier. I didn’t want it to be lost with the author’s comments about Paul.
“About the year 150 Justin (in his Dialogue, 80) writes of people, ‘who say that there is no resurrection from the dead, but that immediately at death their souls would ascend to heaven’. Here the contrast is indeed clearly perceived.”
(Ibid.)
“ … widespread is the mistake of attributing to primitive Christianity the Greek belief in the immortality of the soul.”
(Oscar Cullmann, Immortality of the Soul or Resurrection of the Dead?, p. 7.)
I quote this for two reasons:
1. I self-identify as a primitive Christian; and
2. This is easy to confirm by reading the Early Church Fathers.
Was Dr. Cullmann, then, on “easy street”?
“… the truth I have found it necessary to draw between the courageous and joyful primitive Christian hope of the resurrection of the dead and the serene philosophic expectation of the survival of the immortal soul, has displeased not only many sincere Christians in all Communions and of all theological outlooks, but also those whose convictions, while not outwardly alienated from Christianity, are more strongly molded by philosophical considerations.”
(Ibid., p. 6)
I read the book many years before I delivered my grandmother’s graveside sermon. I often recall this comment made by Dr. Cullmann when I think back about that day in the cemetery.
The Baptist pastor that summer morning was, to put it mildly, “displeased”.
What I had previously only read about, I experienced myself that day.
It doesn’t matter? Let the reader decide.
It mattered enough to make a Baptist pastor who was present scowl.
@RLT63 this takes me back a dozen years, to a hillside grave in Ashland, Kentucky.
A favorite book of mine is Immortality of the Soul or Resurrection of the Dead?: The Witness of The New Testament, written by Oscar Cullmann (a trinitarian, if it matters). I highly recommend it to all readers.
An excerpt from the Conclusion,
“On his missionary journeys Paul met people who were unable to believe in his preaching of the resurrection for the very reason that they believed in the immortality of the soul. Thus in Athens there was no laughter until Paul spoke of the resurrection (Acts 17:32). Both the people of whom Paul says (in 1 Thessalonians 4:13) that ‘they have no hope’ and those of whom he writes (in 1 Corinthians 15:12) that they do not believe there is a resurrection from the dead are probably not Epicureans, as we are inclined to believe. Even those who believe in the immortality of the soul do not have the hope of which Paul speaks, the hope which expresses the belief of a divine miracle of new creation which will embrace everything, every part of the world created by God. Indeed for the Greeks who believed in the immortality of the soul it may have been harder to accept the Christian preaching of the resurrection than it was for others.
(p. 59)
I paused here because the very next sentence in his writing touches - very lightly - on someone and something I mentioned earlier. I didn’t want it to be lost with the author’s comments about Paul.
“About the year 150 Justin (in his Dialogue, 80) writes of people, ‘who say that there is no resurrection from the dead, but that immediately at death their souls would ascend to heaven’. Here the contrast is indeed clearly perceived.”
(Ibid.)
“ … widespread is the mistake of attributing to primitive Christianity the Greek belief in the immortality of the soul.”
(Oscar Cullmann, Immortality of the Soul or Resurrection of the Dead?, p. 7.)
I quote this for two reasons:
1. I self-identify as a primitive Christian; and
2. This is easy to confirm by reading the Early Church Fathers.
Was Dr. Cullmann, then, on “easy street”?
“… the truth I have found it necessary to draw between the courageous and joyful primitive Christian hope of the resurrection of the dead and the serene philosophic expectation of the survival of the immortal soul, has displeased not only many sincere Christians in all Communions and of all theological outlooks, but also those whose convictions, while not outwardly alienated from Christianity, are more strongly molded by philosophical considerations.”
(Ibid., p. 6)
I read the book many years before I delivered my grandmother’s graveside sermon. I often recall this comment made by Dr. Cullmann when I think back about that day in the cemetery.
The Baptist pastor that summer morning was, to put it mildly, “displeased”.
What I had previously only read about, I experienced myself that day.
It doesn’t matter? Let the reader decide.
It mattered enough to make a Baptist pastor who was present scowl.
@RLT63 this takes me back a dozen years, to a hillside grave in Ashland, Kentucky.
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quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Are you not aware that a few posts back you said Jesus went to Paradise the day he was crucified as per your understanding of his conversation with the thief beside him.
Do you not see the incongruence between what you have previously stated and what you are stating now?
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
I have made you aware of it Taken. It is up to you to put the leg work in to discover your cognitive dissonance in this matter.
Bible scholars have understood "the millennial reign" in various ways. An important point to keep in mind is that the so-called millennium will occur neither on this earth nor on a remodeling of this earth:
"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away and there was no sea (Rev. 21:1)."
This earth will cease to exist and "the new earth" will have no seas or oceans! I interpret this to mean not that the new earth will be in some other part of the Milky Way or another galaxy, but rather that the new earth will exist in a spiritual dimension. In fact, "new earth" may be another expression for "Paradise," an Old Persian word that means "park" or "garden." Paul locates Paradise "in the third heaven" (2 Cor. 12:2, 4).
I wonder what the implied first 2 heavens will be like--Purgatory, perhaps? In any case, Jesus' resonse to the thief on the cross implies that the first 2 heavens are best avoided by believers.
"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away and there was no sea (Rev. 21:1)."
This earth will cease to exist and "the new earth" will have no seas or oceans! I interpret this to mean not that the new earth will be in some other part of the Milky Way or another galaxy, but rather that the new earth will exist in a spiritual dimension. In fact, "new earth" may be another expression for "Paradise," an Old Persian word that means "park" or "garden." Paul locates Paradise "in the third heaven" (2 Cor. 12:2, 4).
I wonder what the implied first 2 heavens will be like--Purgatory, perhaps? In any case, Jesus' resonse to the thief on the cross implies that the first 2 heavens are best avoided by believers.
Jesus’ BODY died.
Jesus’ BODY was buried in a cave.
Jesus’ Saved Living Soul Departed His Body.
Jesus’ Saved Living Soul Went to Paradise.
The Thief’s body died.
The Thief’s Saved Living soul departed his body.
The Thief’s Saved Living soul went to Paradise.
Jesus’s departed Saved Living Soul and the Thief’s departed Saved ...Living Soul SAW each other IN Paradise.
No Jesus’ BODY Had not returned to Heaven.
Jesus’ BODY was buried in a Cave.
You claim an “incongruency”,
Yet you FAILED to prove your claim.
Not my job to prove your claims.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
That's right, it's not your job to prove my claims. It's not mine either. What would be helpful if your understanding of the matter was not out of kilter.
LOL.......
You make unfounded accusations, supposedly quietly thinking your accusations have merit because you say so. You should continue to think quietly Because your accusations fail.
Any diligent student of Scripture SHOULD KNOW...
Living souls Depart Dying Body’s.
Body’s are buried.
Saved Living Souls go to Paradise...are in Comfort.
UnSaved Living Souls go to Hell...are in Torments.
A Living Soul that is RETURNED to the BODY, the BODY resumes living.
Dead body’s do not go to hell.
Dead body’s do not go to heaven.
Dead body’s are buried.
Dead body’s do not communicate.
Disembodied Living souls can communicate with other disembodied Living souls.
Disembodied Living souls CAN (BY THE POWER OF GOD) return to it’s DEAD BODY, and the BODY resume living.
Saved disembodied Living souls GO TO Paradise, with the Tree of Life.
UnSaved disembodied Living souls GO TO Hell, without the Tree of Life.
From historical days, Catholic Priests KNEW, body’s of humans, do not go to Heaven. They concocted an elaborate lie, Because even THEY could not BELIEVE or TEACH, HOW she could be a naturally born sinner, and Deliver forth a SINLESS child. They have MADE Mary’s BODY without SIN, Claim Her BODY, and embodied soul and spirit ... IS SINLESS, and Sits in Heaven as a QUEEN, and THUS, “since her living soul IS IN her BODY”...”that Living men ON earth with their own embodied living soul” CAN SPEAK Directly to her, pray to her....SAME AS, ANY two LIVING MEN......ON EARTH........bodily alive, with their Embodied LIVING SOUL IN THEM......can speak to each other.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
ahhhhh, how human beings cobble together bizarre stories. I heard of a pilot who threw a coke bottle of the window of his aircraft later to be found by a native. Well you wouldn't believe what they made up about that coke bottle. Were the God's crazy or did man in his brilliance have some other enlightening explanation?
LOL...not interested in your deflective tales about men and coke bottles.
Obviously you did not search the scriptures to learn the truth.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
bbyrd009
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well i guess one does not have to go very far in the Scriptures to learn that soul and life are the same thing 
Monte McGuire
New Member
[IMHO] When we die we no longer exist, until we are resurrected, sometime in the future.. See John 5:28 for one example.
You supplied no scriptures to help prove your points. But I will, minus the sanctimoniousness [/IMHO]
Psalm 146:4 [KJV] - "... he returneth to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish"
Ecclesiastes 9:5 [KJV] - "... the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten"
Ecclesiastes 9:10 [KJV] - "... for there is no work, device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in the grave, whither thou goest"
Nonsense.
The BODY begins noticeably decaying shortly after death, yet still can exist for years before the last bone returns to dust.
The Living SOUL, departs the dying body, and is escorted to heaven, or sent to hell. It waits for return to it’s body, to face Judgement of the soul and it’s body.
The Natural spirit, of an unsaved man, dies with his body.
The Born Again quickened spirit, of a saved man, departs his body, at bodily dead, Goes to Heaven, to wait return to it’s body, to face Judgement.
So? You go look it up, read, study.
Start here:
Gen 2:
[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,
(^ CREATED FORM, dust..called man...later learn is the body.)
and
(^ MADE the FORM ALIVE...with Gods Breath of LIFE...a SOUL)
breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.)
Read here: example
1 Kings 17
Uh huh. Body’s Die, Know nothing, Go to the Grave, Begin Decomposing, Return to Dust.
Souls did not come from the Dust.
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