What if you lose your faith?

[Ferris Bueller]

Not the way I see it, no offense, the thief on the cross never went near water and the thief on the cross is "reasoned away" like so many other doctrines.

OMGosh, J, will you please hear what I'm saying? I have in no way said or suggested that water baptism is the only way to receive the empowerment of the Spirit for effective witness.

 

[Johann]

FB has no idea.
He'll have to "consult a commentary" or do a Google search, and then, once he's read that about 20 times, he'll come back here and sort of rewrite it to pretend he "knew it all along".
That's his game plan and end game.

So, Let me answer your question, as its a GRT one.

In John 20:22, Jesus Gave the Apostle the Holy Spirit. They had it before "the day of Pentecost".

So, when Pentecost came, PETER, receive his Acts 1:8....and he began to have what is the "Signs of an Apostle".. 2 Corinthians 12:12.

Notice that the NT illeterates will teach that its all about that WATER....in Acts 2, Yet, Peter already had the Holy Spirit before Acts 2:38, so now, He is getting his Apostolic POWER that He was told by JESUS, would come.
Notice carefully that none in the upper room, nor Peter, were water baptized that day, yet they all had the "gift of Tongues", and Peter used this Gift to preach to those who the NT states in ACTS 2..>"heard in their OWN LANGUAGE".....which defines what the 'gift of Tongues" actually is... Its the supernatural ability to speak in a foreign language....or a 'TONGUE".

When might you need that?
Not in a Charismatic Church Service, full of "spiritual gift" fakirs.... thats for sure.
But, if you are called to be a Missionary, which is a type of Apostle, and God sends you to Africa, and you are dealing with 90 dialects, ... they need to understand the Gospel you are giving them so that HEARING it they can Believe.
You have to speak their LANGUAGE...>"TONGUE"...>"Gift of ....TONGUES"..

I fully concur with this.
J.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

FB has no idea.
He'll have to "consult a commentary" or do a Google search, and then, once he's read that about 20 times, he'll come back here and sort of rewrite it to pretend he "knew it all along".
That's his game plan and end game.

God knows what I do. You don't.

 

[Johann]

OMGosh, J, will you please hear what I'm saying? I have in no way said or suggested that water baptism is the only way to receive the empowerment of the Spirit for effective witness.

Yet you are here defending H2O...water, no where in the 13 Pauline epistles do I read water/hudati, it is all about baptism of the Holy Spirit, an Imperative, for without the Spirit no one belongs to Christ.
No offense, not being facetious with you.
J.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Show me scripture references that I may obtain a martureo in order for me to receive a gift or a witness and to know my calling and election, a witness to the effect that I was there when our Lord was crucified, died a violent death, and was gloriously resurrected and seated at the right hand of the Father on high.
Not being argumentative
J.

Being a witness does not mean you witnessed the crucifixion of Christ. You are a witness to what ever grace you have received through Christ. As a witness of that grace you testify to others about what you have seen and heard and experienced in your own relationship with God. That's called being a witness. We refer to it as witnessing.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

No the Bible does NOT say that a Christian is supernaturally incapable of sinning.

And so neither do I say that.
The sinlessness of the Christian is in regard to his legal status before God. When your sin guilt is wiped away by the blood of Christ there is no more guilt to make you appear sinful and unrighteousness before God, legally speaking. And so you appear perfect before him.

 

[Johann]

Being a witness does not mean you witnessed the crucifixion of Christ. You are a witness to what ever grace you have received through Christ. As a witness of that grace you testify to others about what you have seen and heard and experienced in your own relationship with God.

If your experience is not in line with the cross and the resurrection of Christ, sealed with the Holy Spirit, then it is experience I will cast a doubt upon, no offense.
For the Holy Spirit will always point others TO the cross and the violent death of our Lord Jesus in our stead, then the resurrection.
Is 53, Ps 22...if you have ever studied this you will be awestruck what our Lord underwent and how He looked like on that cross.
In my own experience I don't rely on my experience, but always pointing others TO Christ Jesus, away from myself, TO Him, His story, not mine.
J.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I've heard many preposterous explanations of John 15:2 & John 15:6.

So, ... let's hear your ridiculous interpretation of it because you clearly don't agree with what Jesus states there.

I believe exactly what he says there. DEAD branches are cut off and burned. DEAD branches have no fruit on them. DEAD branches do not have the life giving sap of the trunk in them. That's why they are cast off from the tree and burned.

And, for the record, to be "IN Jesus", one must already be believing at a minimum.

For being justified (made righteous) that is the only thing you must do. But for being saved from the wrath of Jesus when he comes back your faith must be accompanied by that which accompanies salvation, as proof of that salvation, or you'll be burned:

"8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless, and its curse is imminent. In the end it will be burned.9Even though we speak like this, beloved, we are convinced of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. 10For God is not unjust. He will not forget your work and the love you have shown for His name as you have ministered to the saints and continue to do so." Hebrews 6:8-10
​

And he's not talking about sinless perfection in your living. He's talking about having that which unbelievers do not have - love for God displayed in works of love, particularly for believers, his church. Because if there's one thing that is for sure, ultimately, unbelievers have no love for, and actually hate, the church. They call us self-righteous, hypocritical, legalistic, and judgmental. You get nothing but hateful criticism out of unbelievers when you talk to them about the church. They show their unbelief by the fact that they do not love those born of God, despite, perhaps, that they claim that they love God:

"1Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father also loves those born of Him." 1 John 5:1​

That absence of love for the brethren identifies them as not belonging to Christ. And the fate of those who do not love Christ and his people has been determined:

"41Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, I was naked and you did not clothe Me, I was sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
46And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:41-46
​

So you MUST have faith and works to be saved at the resurrection. Not because works make you righteous, or put God indebted to you to give you salvation, but because the faith that makes you righteous all by itself apart from works, works! @BloodBought 1953 won't get this, even though I've explained it. He'll call me a 'religionist' and a 'legalist' and all the other names (and insults) he reserves for the special kind of sinner he loves to hate, but which I am not.

 

[charity]

On this topic why do folks ignore Jeremiah 32:40 where the prophet predicts that the New Covenant will involve the indwelling presence, including the Spirit of the Fear of the Lord, to prevent falling away???

Jer 32:38
They shall be My people, and I will be their God; 39 and I will give them one heart and one way, so that they will fear Me always, for their own good and for the good of their children after them. 40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts, so that they will not turn away from Me. 41 I will rejoice over them to do them good and will faithfully plant them in this land with all My heart and all My soul.

'And I will make an everlasting covenant with them,
that I will not turn away from them, to do them good;
but I will put My fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from Me.
Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good,
and I will plant them in this land assuredly
with My whole heart and with My whole soul.'
For thus saith the LORD;
Like as I have brought all this great evil upon this people,
so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them.'
(Jer 32:40-42)

Hello @Carl Emerson (reply#14 - 1st Page),

This is addressed to a specific company, though, isn't it? To the People of the North and South within the land (Judah and Israel) at the time of Jeremiah. Though the prophecy has yet to take effect.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[GodsGrace]

Do you love people who think works earn them salvation?

Interesting question.
You'd think that those that are working to earn salvation are sinners!
Here's the good part...
IF they're working to gain salvation,
BUT they do have faith in God,
VOILA...they're saved!

Doctrine does not save.
Jesus saves.

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe exactly what he says there. DEAD branches are cut off and burned. DEAD branches have no fruit on them. DEAD branches do not have the life giving sap of the trunk in them. That's why they are cast off from the tree and burned.


For being justified (made righteous) that is the only thing you must do. But for being saved from the wrath of Jesus when he comes back your faith must be accompanied by that which accompanies salvation, as proof of that salvation, or you'll be burned:

"8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless, and its curse is imminent. In the end it will be burned.9Even though we speak like this, beloved, we are convinced of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. 10For God is not unjust. He will not forget your work and the love you have shown for His name as you have ministered to the saints and continue to do so." Hebrews 6:8-10
​

And he's not talking about sinless perfection in your living. He's talking about having that which unbelievers do not have - love for God displayed in works of love, particularly for believers, his church. Because if there's one thing that is for sure, ultimately, unbelievers have no love for, and actually hate, the church. They call us self-righteous and legalistic and judgmental. You get nothing but hateful criticism out of unbelievers when you talk to them about the church. They show their unbelief by the fact that they do not love those born of God, despite, perhaps, that they claim that they love God:

"1Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father also loves those born of Him." 1 John 5:1​

That absence of love for the brethren identifies them as not belonging to Christ. And the fate of those who do not love Christ and his people has been determined:

"41Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, I was naked and you did not clothe Me, I was sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
46And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:41-46
​

So you MUST have faith and works to be saved at the resurrection. Not because works make you righteous, or put God indebted to you to give you salvation, but because the faith that makes you righteous all by itself apart from works, works! @BloodBought 1953 won't get this, even though I've explained it. He'll call me a 'religionist' and a 'legalist' and all the other names (and insults) he reserves for the special kind of sinner he loves to hate, but which I am not.

Great post.
Well said.

 

[GodsGrace]

Careful, these ous don't like "commentaries" yet the Jews had their own "commentaries" the Oral Law and much more.
J.

Johann,
I don't like commentaries either.
However, when they ALL agree on a particular matter, we should take notice.

I'll tell you what I refer to when I have a question about something...
The Early Church Fathers.
The ones that were taught by John or Peter or Paul.
I feel that if they don't know the answer, then who does?

Of course I only do this when there is something unclear in the NT.
Which is rare...but we do love to debate!

OSAS would be one of topics I've looked up.
The early fathers/theologians did not believe in this.
They learned from the Apostles, who learned from Jesus.
I tend to trust them.

 

[GTW27]

I will not leave you desolate; I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also. In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father , and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.

Weather believed or not, matters not to me, but The Lord has kept this promise to me, no matter how unworthy I am. When The Lord manifest Himself to a a person His Love penetrates every fiber of their being,to a point there are not words to accurately describe the experience. The fear and awe of His Presence will leave one knowing that they are nothing and He is all. It is time we all start believing what He said, and what He promised, as time is running short.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Do you love people who think works earn them salvation?

Of course! Heck, 99.9% of the people that I know, hang around with, play golf with , my relatives ,etc —- they ALL believe that “ Sure, Jesus Saves, But once you know THAT , you gotta “ make yourself worthy” by doing this or that or the other thing to STAY Saved!
I got relatives that I Love with all of my heart that think you will go to Hell if you play Bingo! A guy I play golf with thinks it’s OK to say bad words, but if you drop the “F- Bomb” , you are going to spend an Eternity in the Fires Of Hell!
They have NO understanding of Grace and in fact they are All “ Fallen from Grace” because they not only ADD to the Gospel —- they are proud of it! It’s like the MORE that ” YOU” can do, the MORE SAVED you are.....
Two things SAVE US , as I have repeated many times—- “ Christ’s” Blood and “ OUR” Faith in that Blood—- PLUS NOTHING! Probably Not 1% of my friends Believe this.... But I love them all....

Who can really blame these people? It’s the result of Bad Teaching —- Taught by “ self- called” jackasses as opposed to “ GOD- CALLED”, True preachers of God’s Word....

It’s what we BOTH heard in the Methodist Church when we were young—- “ Jesus died for your Sins— your * PAST* sins.....once you understand THAT, you are on your own....you gotta be “ good enough” ....a False, Accursed , so- called “ Gospel”....

 

[Johann]

Johann,
I don't like commentaries either.
However, when they ALL agree on a particular matter, we should take notice.

I'll tell you what I refer to when I have a question about something...
The Early Church Fathers.
The ones that were taught by John or Peter or Paul.
I feel that if they don't know the answer, then who does?

Of course I only do this when there is something unclear in the NT.
Which is rare...but we do love to debate!

OSAS would be one of topics I've looked up.
The early fathers/theologians did not believe in this.
They learned from the Apostles, who learned from Jesus.
I tend to trust them.

Yup, agreed.
J.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Do you love people who think works earn them salvation?

I don’t Hate them or anybody else.....even before I became a Christian, I can think of nobody that I Hated.....I feel sorry for Legalists and pray for them.....I know the Error Of their Mind- Frame and cut them considerable “ slack”—— it’s easy to do because I was once just like them...

 

[BloodBought 1953]

And if they attended a church today, Paul's counsel is to put them out of the fellowship until, and if, they repent. Then receive them back into the fellowship.

"11But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a verbal abuser, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat." 1 Corinthians 5:11

"5hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the Day of the Lord." 1 Corinthians 5:5
​

This kind of treatment isn't reserved for your nemesis, the proverbial legalist. You had a bad experience with Christians before you were born again who showed you up by how they lived and you decided they were legalists. Now you hate their guts. I say, if you're going to hate them, then you can't exclude all the other sinners, too.

In Galatians,Paul compared the Legalists of his day to the “ Symbolic” Legalists Of Olden Times, Hagar and Ishmael —- His Verdict for them was the same—- “ Cast Them Out! “......

Paul never said to argue with them, or try to persuade them or convince them of the errors of their ways......he did not even say to Pray for them! He never even said to “ hand them over to Satan” for Chastisement.....He said to Kick them out of the Church! Period.

Sins of the Flesh are one thing....preaching “ False and Perverted” Gospels are on an Entirely different level.....It’s spreading “ Leaven”—— God HATES Leaven! So did Paul......so do I.....how about you?

 

[BloodBought 1953]

And if they attended a church today, Paul's counsel is to put them out of the fellowship until, and if, they repent. Then receive them back into the fellowship.

"11But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a verbal abuser, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat." 1 Corinthians 5:11

"5hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the Day of the Lord." 1 Corinthians 5:5
​

This kind of treatment isn't reserved for your nemesis, the proverbial legalist. You had a bad experience with Christians before you were born again who showed you up by how they lived and you decided they were legalists. Now you hate their guts. I say, if you're going to hate them, then you can't exclude all the other sinners, too.

Lol—- “ hate their guts?” .....Exaggerate Much ! I have NEVER had a “ Bad Experience” with a True Christian....It’s the Finger- Pointing , “ Holier Than Thou” , Self- Righteous RELIGIONIST Hypocrite that I have the problem with —- You Know....The Spiritual Descendants Of The Religionists That Crucified our Lord and Savior?

YOU can be “ buddies” with these types if you choose.....as I said previously, “ Birds of a Feather , Flock together....”
I much prefer the company of the ordinary , run- of- the- mill Sinner than I do to the company of a Self- Righteous Hypocrite....That kinda makes me like Jesus....Lord knows, I can’t make “ that” c,aim very often....

 

[BloodBought 1953]

And if they attended a church today, Paul's counsel is to put them out of the fellowship until, and if, they repent. Then receive them back into the fellowship.

"11But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a verbal abuser, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat." 1 Corinthians 5:11

"5hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the Day of the Lord." 1 Corinthians 5:5
​

This kind of treatment isn't reserved for your nemesis, the proverbial legalist. You had a bad experience with Christians before you were born again who showed you up by how they lived and you decided they were legalists. Now you hate their guts. I say, if you're going to hate them, then you can't exclude all the other sinners, too.

Paul also Warned Those That administered the Discipline — words to the effect—- “ Don’t Get Cocky —— YOU might be “ NEXT!”..... You correct those that “ stumble” with kindness and humility....

 

[BloodBought 1953]

This kind of treatment isn't reserved for your nemesis, the proverbial legalist. You had a bad experience with Christians before you were born again who showed you up by how they lived and you decided they were legalists. Now you hate their guts.



Lol....
Your 100% Ignorance of my Experiences, your Ignorant Assumptions Of my life are worth EXACTLY what I paid for them——NOTHING. Back to the “ Drawing Board” for you, Dr.Freud ....haha...