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What if you lose your faith?

Discussion in 'Christian Spirituality Forum' started by Behold, May 21, 2022.

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  1. BloodBought 1953

    BloodBought 1953 Well-Known Member

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    As to saving anybody that asks,,,I do understand what you mean.
    And I agree. God does save anyone that wishes to be saved.
    WISHES TO BE SAVED.
    If a person walks away from the fold, do they still want to be saved?



    It doesn’t matter—— the” monkey” is on GOD’S BACK to Save you once you have Asked —- or He is a LIAR—— God Did NOT say that He would save you if you asked and then you “ DID” this thing , or “ avoided” some other thing.....

    It could NOT be plainer and only a Stiff- Necked Fool would try to qualify it......*WILL BE* means EXACTLY what it says....I don’t give a Tinker’s Damn WHAT a person does or doesn’t do—- If he asks to be Saved he’s gonna be Saved—- or our God is a Liar—- I’m betting my Eternal Soul That He AINT! That’s called “ Faith”..... why not GET you some instead of sowing doubt among the Newbies in here that just might be trying to please God By taking Him at His Sacred Word....” Sowing Doubt” is Satan’s Forte....are you his friend?
     
  2. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    In the New Covenant the promise of the indwelling Christ was fulfilled.
     
  3. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    Hello @Carl Emerson,

    Are you saying that the words of Jeremiah 32:40-42, that I quoted, has now come into effect for the people to whom it was promised?

    Thank you
    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
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  4. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Paul spoke of two Israel's

    This promise is valid for both. For the Church it has come. For Israel as a people - yet to be fulfilled.

    Isaiah 11 which lists the seven spirits of God, confirms that the Spirit of the fear of the Lord is included with the spirit of Jesus and this is what indwells us.

    By this our salvation is sealed.
     
  5. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    Hello @Carl Emerson,

    Thank you for responding again.

    Yet the promise of a New Covenant was made to the People with whom the Old Covenant was made, and to no other; and yet you say that for that People it is not fulfilled. That I know to be true. So why should we assume that we to whom the Old Covenant was not made, are now the recipients of the New Covenant that was promised to the People of the nation whom God separated unto Himself.

    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2022
  6. Ferris Bueller

    Ferris Bueller Well-Known Member

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    I will clarify: The believer who sins knowingly and on purpose as a matter of lifestyle, out of unbelief, is lost or was never saved to begin with. You keep leaving the part out about the sinning being a lifestyle of willful sinning, and that it's being done as the result of unbelief. Those are the two points that should make my position about it clear to you.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2022
  7. Ferris Bueller

    Ferris Bueller Well-Known Member

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    There is no more forgiveness for the unrepentant, willful sinner in unbelief because he has rejected the only source of forgiveness there is - Jesus Christ. That's what the unbelief part of my argument means. That person has rejected Christ and the gospel in unbelief. And his return to a lifestyle of unrepentant, wanton, purposeful sin is the sign of that unbelief.

    Yes, I don't believe that purposely wanting to sin is on the radar of a born again person. Can they? Sure. But not as a lifestyle, like an unconverted unbeliever, and certainly with much remorse. But honestly, I think on closer examination the willful sin of the believer is probably not as 'on purpose' as it may at first appear. For the believer, sinning gets provoked by fears, or a lack of awareness in the heat of the moment, or from ignorance, or thoughtlessness even when it feels like we did it on purpose without any provocation other than we simply wanted to. For the unbeliever it's just who they are. It's what they crave and desire all the time. And so they purposely and willfully sin continually. Believers struggle with sin. Unbelievers walk joyfully hand and hand with it.
     
  8. Ferris Bueller

    Ferris Bueller Well-Known Member

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    Sinning the sin of returning to the animal sacrifices is just one example of a lifestyle of purposely sinning in unbelief. And the Hebrew church was teetering on that precipice. Thus the need for the author to write them and warn them to avoid that sin. But you have to remember that the way of relating to God through justification through the law guarantees that they will be overcome in sin again, because the law made nothing perfect (Hebrews 10:1). And so it is inevitable that they will be just like any other willfully sinning unbeliever, sinning the various sins that result from unbelief. But, they will be your favorite kind of sinner, the legalistic hypocrite. They will think they are good with God because of their faithfulness to a system of regimented worship.
     
  9. Ferris Bueller

    Ferris Bueller Well-Known Member

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    As unlikely as it is that it will occur, a willful sin committed by a genuinely born again believer is covered by the blood. A return to a lifestyle of willful sin is not, because, ultimately, that return to a lifestyle of sin represents a return to unbelief. IOW, they're an unbeliever. And no unbeliever is covered by the blood of Jesus that they do not believe and trust in. John is very clear that a born again person does not live in sin. He goes so far as to say they CAN'T live in sin, because God's seed is inside of them (1 John 3:9). So, since that's true, we know that the person who is living in sin is not born again. It's just simple logic.

    So it's impossible that the willfully sinning person in Hebrews 10:26 is saved. He's sinning willfully in the life of continual, unrepentant sin that John says a born again person CAN'T live in. Was the person in Hebrews 10:26 ever really saved to begin with? What does it matter? They're going to the fiery place either way! The important take away here is that we are to endure to the very end in faith. But instead, we wonder if the fallen person was ever really saved to begin with.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2022
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  10. Ferris Bueller

    Ferris Bueller Well-Known Member

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    But, as I've shown you from the scriptures, willful, unrepentant sin is the sign of an unbeliever. The born again person CAN'T do that. And so, no, the sin of unbelief is NOT included in all the sins that grace covers. Grace only covers sins for believers, not unbelievers. Just the very fact that a person is in unbelief shows that a person does not have the grace of God applied to them. They've either never had it, or they cast it away.
     
  11. Ferris Bueller

    Ferris Bueller Well-Known Member

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    I agree, you have to keep everything in context. And that includes the context of ALL the scriptures. And as I've shown you, other scripture says a genuinely born again person CAN'T be in habitual, continual, purposeful sin. The person who walks in determined, purposeful sin - which in the case of the Hebrews is the sin of rejecting Christ and going back to the law for justification - is not born again. Unbelieving, unconverted people do not have God's grace in salvation(1 John 3:9). That's why the author says there's no sacrifice left for them. Where else are they going to go to get a sacrifice for sin if they have rejected the only one that exists?

    So, take your own counsel to heart and realize that you can not ignore 1 John 3:9 in the buffet of God's word. The willfully sinning person is an unconverted, not born again person. Born again people CAN'T adopt that lifestyle. They have to either have never been born again, or stop being born again to do what John says in his part of the buffet of God's word that born again people can not do. They can't live that way because God's word is in them. God's word has to have either never been in them to begin with, or is no longer in them for them to walk in the sin of willful sin you erroneously claim God's grace covers.
     
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  12. Ferris Bueller

    Ferris Bueller Well-Known Member

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    How about you at least attempt to read 1 John 3:9 with an open, honest heart and realize that you (and them) have been wrong about this? People who live lives of unrepentant, willful sin are not born again. They CAN'T live in the life you say is covered by God's grace. If they do 1 John 3:9 makes it very clear they are not born again. They are unconverted. They are not saved.

    I've listened to Andrew Farley's take on Hebrews 10. He is terribly ignorant of scriptural truth. All you have to do is read 1 John 3:9 for yourself and you'll see he is wrong, and, if you acknowledge the simple words of John you'll be smarter than him!
     
  13. Ferris Bueller

    Ferris Bueller Well-Known Member

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    No, Mr. Bueller does not say it's a sin to learn from others. I've learned much from gifted, insightful believers on forums. And I've been under the tutelage of several very gifted, spiritual leaders. What's a sin is to blindly follow anybody without knowing and considering all of the scriptures for yourself.

    Do that, BB. Tell us why this doesn't mean the Christian who lives in an unconverted life of willful sin (like going back to the cycle of temple worship in a rejection of Christ) is somehow born again and covered by God's grace in salvation, despite their unbelief:

    "9Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin, because God’s seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1 John 3:9
     
  14. Ferris Bueller

    Ferris Bueller Well-Known Member

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    Has it ever crossed your mind that 'eternal' can be referring to the simple fact something never ends, not that you will always have it? 'Eternal' doesn't have to only mean 'you can't lose it'. For example, surely, John in the verse below was not saying the eternal condemnation of the unbeliever means they can't lose it, right? An honest seeker of truth would at least recognize that one can legitimately examine an argument that says 'eternal' does not have to only mean 'you can't lose it':

    Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, (eternally without hope, because 'eternal' means by definition 'irreversible'?)..." John 3:18
    This is where I'm going:

    23Now there have been many other priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office. 24But because Jesus lives forever, He has a permanent priesthood. 25Therefore He is able to save completely those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to intercede for them." Hebrews 10:23-25
    You see, the ministry of Jesus and the life it gives is what is 'eternal' and never-ending, not your possession of it. You have to keep believing in that which never ends to possess that which never ends.

    "14Therefore, since we have a great high priest (who lives forever and whose ministry never ends)...let us hold firmly to what we profess." Hebrews 4:14
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2022
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  15. Ferris Bueller

    Ferris Bueller Well-Known Member

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    Chris, the promise was made to the people of God. And you are that ‘people’ (forgive the grammar, lol) by virtue of your faith in God - 1 Peter 2:10, 2 Corinthians 1:20.
     
  16. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    First off thanks for being prepared to engage in a reasoned discussion.

    There are several reasons that point to this fact.

    First the aspect of being personally indwelled with God Himself is the unique aspect of this New Covenant, prophesied to come.

    Then there is the reference to the 'time of the Jews' and the 'time of the Gentiles' One Covenant for both but at different time periods.

    Paul plainly speaks of 'all Israel' being saved and this is not yet fulfilled in reference to the nation of Israel. Yet it is fulfilled in that the Israel of faith through the promises given to Abraham, enjoys during this time, the promised indwelling presence as stated.

    Thirdly the Messianic Jews of today are not considered to be under a different Covenant.

    Fourthly the Disciples who surely received this promise and entered into this New Covenant themselves testified, with surprise, that the
    Gentiles were receiving exactly the same blessing and indwelling from God as they did. One Covenant - all Nations.

    Lastly if this promise is yet to be fulfilled then believing Jews today would not be receiving the indwelling presence.

    You will notice that I don't buy into 'replacement theology' not do I believe the Old Covenant was a Covenant of Salvation. The only way to God and eternal life always was is through Christ via the promises given to Abraham, for all mankind, appropriated by faith.

    When God tore the temple curtain, the Old Covenant ended - God Himself desecrated the Temple.

    It does seem to me however that in the restoration of all things (New Heaven and New Earth) when the New Jerusalem descends, the saved Jews will occupy the New Jerusalem and the promised Land of Israel.

    I offer this perspective for your kind consideration.
     
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  17. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    Great post.
    Just one question...
    How were persons saved Before Christ since you say salvation was always through Him.
     
  18. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    100% correct
    :)
     
  19. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Abraham had faith in God and it was accepted by God as righteousness. Abraham believed that God would raise His son Isaac if he sacrificed him (he said, going up the mountain we will return) He was walking by faith not by sight. Now he didn't have full revelation of Jesus but had sufficient understanding of the character of God that He could and would resurrect. It is said of him that he believed God could create something out of nothing.

    Now this is how we are to determine a right spirit. The confession that Jesus is raised in the flesh marks a true believer because they have the faith that Abraham had. A corpse in a tomb is nothing. But with God it is everything.

    Lastly the Blood of Jesus poured out on the Cross was a divine event from heaven that covered the sins of the elect right across history. God is not bound by time and this was planned before the creation began for the salvation of all who believe.
     
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  20. Behold

    Behold Well-Known Member

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    True.

    The born again are "translated from DARKNESS.........>TO LIGHT.

    Darkness is to be an unbeliever.........>"to LIGHT" is to become a child of the Light, and Jesus is the Light of the World. = born again.

    God exists : "IN LIGHT"
     
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