What is being pointed to in the following scfriptures?

[Jay Ross]

Hello @Jay Ross,

In Genesis 2:7, Adam and Eve had not experienced death, so how could the death they were being warned about in this verse be a 'second' death for them?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Perhaps we need to consider Genesis 6:3 which states: -

3 And the Lord said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever/for a long period of time {which concludes at the vanishing point of the time period in question},[1] for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."​

For me, this verse suggests that God had indeed created mankind with a determined life span before he would die from a physical death. This verse simply suggests that God was now choosing to limit the length of mankind's' life to a maximum period of just 120 years in the future from what was recorded for people born during the time up to the flood. (Please remember that Enoch is the exception as he was taken by God up into the heavens when he was around 365 years old.)

We should be careful not to draw conclusions from the silence of particular scripture verse without first considering the whole context first.

Shalom



[1] We know from scripture, that God has set a limit of seven ages before the time of the final judgement will occur. The vanishing point for this time period may be the refurbishment of the earth after the Great White Throne room judgement that is recorded in the Revelation 20, where those who are judged to not be righteous will die the second death.

Another meaning, that can be considered for this verse, is that God will not strive with each individual person for a long period of time, where the vanishing point for this life cannot be easily comprehended by mankind. The nominal duration for the life of mankind up and until the time of the flood, was 900 plus years. After the flood, over a period of some twenty descendent generation, the physical life span for a man had reduced to no more than 120 years in line with this verse.

 

[Davy]

Davy, Davy, there is no need for me to respond to your fanciful words of supposed understanding. You bring forward your confusion in your posts as if they are God's truths. You timeline for the events given in the End Time Prophecies do not line up with God's Prophetic Time Line for when those events will occur.

Oh well, such is life.

It seems to me that you have missed the associated Babylonian prophecy given in Jeremiah 50-51 which needs to be considered also when reading the Statue prophecy found in Daniel 2.

Oh well such is life. All is but vanity with nothing being new under the sun.

I showed you the simple Scripture, you reject those Scriptures. So your confusion is your own doing.

 

[charity]

Perhaps we need to consider Genesis 6:3 which states: -

3 And the Lord said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever/for a long period of time {which concludes at the vanishing point of the time period in question},[1] for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."​

For me, this verse suggests that God had indeed created mankind with a determined life span before he would die from a physical death. This verse simply suggests that God was now choosing to limit the length of mankind's' life to a maximum period of just 120 years in the future from what was recorded for people born during the time up to the flood. (Please remember that Enoch is the exception as he was taken by God up into the heavens when he was around 365 years old.)

We should be careful not to draw conclusions from the silence of particular scripture verse without first considering the whole context first.

Shalom



[1] We know from scripture, that God has set a limit of seven ages before the time of the final judgement will occur. The vanishing point for this time period may be the refurbishment of the earth after the Great White Throne room judgement that is recorded in the Revelation 20, where those who are judged to not be righteous will die the second death.

Another meaning, that can be considered for this verse, is that God will not strive with each individual person for a long period of time, where the vanishing point for this life cannot be easily comprehended by mankind. The nominal duration for the life of mankind up and until the time of the flood, was 900 plus years. After the flood, over a period of some twenty descendent generation, the physical life span for a man had reduced to no more than 120 years in line with this verse.

'But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,
thou shalt not eat of it:
for in the day that thou eatest thereof
thou shalt surely die.'
(Gen 2:17)

Hello @Jay Ross

With respect, this response (for which I thank you) which has much within it to consider and bring to the Scriptures for confirmation: does not explain why you believe that the word, 'death,' in the warning given to Adam in Genesis 2:17, refers to the second death.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Jay Ross]

I showed you the simple Scripture, you reject those Scriptures. So your confusion is your own doing.

Such is life.

You are entitled to your understanding, and in my response to what you had posted, I pointed out that you had overlooked other scriptural prophecies which provided more information with respect to the Statue prophecy in Daniel 2, in that it provides understanding as to way there is a gap of some two thousand years between the third and the fourth segment in Daniel's prophecy. You have "poked fun" at what I have posted by claiming superior understanding in the things that you post but in doing so, you have ignored the scriptures that I have posted at your own peril, which you are claiming that i have done.

I explained above that your understanding of God's timeline for the end time events was all out of wack with what is actually told to us. What you posted above is your own private interpretation and is misleading.

So be it.

 

[Jay Ross]

'But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,
thou shalt not eat of it:
for in the day that thou eatest thereof
thou shalt surely die.'
(Gen 2:17)

Hello @Jay Ross

With respect, this response (for which I thank you) which has much within it to consider and bring to the Scriptures for confirmation: does not explain why you believe that the word, 'death,' in the warning given to Adam in Genesis 2:17, refers to the second death.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

But there are two Hebrew words with the embedded Hebrew root word, H:4191, which has the meaning of: -





If "muwth" has the meaning of "to die, . . to kill" then why have the translators decided to say that the meaning of the first occurrence with the embedded root word H:4191, "mowt" has the meaning of "surely" and the second occurrence "taamuwt" only has the meaning of "die" when the actual Hebrew word is expanded to also include "taa".

In the translators clumsy attempt to convey something more that a "physical" death, I believe that they were attempting to point to the second death as set out in Rev. 20:14 which everyone who has unrepentant sin still in their lives when they are judged will face at the time of the final judgement.

That is why the Prophet Ezekiel said: -

Ezekiel. 18:24: - 24 "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.​

NKJV​

Is not the prophet saying that at the time of the final judgement, that all of his righteousness will be forgotten and he will die the second death.



Now "yaamuwt" in Ezekiel and "taamuwt" both point to the same type of death, that being the second death as defined in Rev. 20.

Shalom

PS: - It is my understanding that King Saul caused/forced the prophet to use a slightly different word to convey the same meaning as was intended in Gen.2:17 for the death that the person would experience. If we sin, which Adam and Eve did in the garden, then the consequences of that sin, if they were unrepentant, while they still lived, is only the second death. Ezekiel in the above quoted verse is also saying of the same future outcome, as Daniel indicated in Daneil.12:1-3.

 

[charity]

But there are two Hebrew words with the embedded Hebrew root word, H:4191, which has the meaning of: -

View attachment 18333

View attachment 18334

If "muwth" has the meaning of "to die, . . to kill" then why have the translators decided to say that the meaning of the first occurrence with the embedded root word H:4191, "mowt" has the meaning of "surely" and the second occurrence "taamuwt" only has the meaning of "die" when the actual Hebrew word is expanded to also include "taa".

In the translators clumsy attempt to convey something more that a "physical" death, I believe that they were attempting to point to the second death as set out in Rev. 20:14 which everyone who has unrepentant sin still in their lives when they are judged will face at the time of the final judgement.

That is why the Prophet Ezekiel said: -

Ezekiel. 18:24: - 24 "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.​

NKJV​

Is not the prophet saying that at the time of the final judgement, that all of his righteousness will be forgotten and he will die the second death.

View attachment 18335

Now "yaamuwt" in Ezekiel and "taamuwt" both point to the same type of death, that being the second death as defined in Rev. 20.

Shalom

PS: - It is my understanding that King Saul caused/forced the prophet to use a slightly different word to convey the same meaning as was intended in Gen.2:17 for the death that the person would experience. If we sin, which Adam and Eve did in the garden, then the consequences of that sin, if they were unrepentant, while they still lived, is only the second death. Ezekiel in the above quoted verse is also saying of the same future outcome, as Daniel indicated in Daneil.12:1-3.

'But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,
thou shalt not eat of it:
for in the day that thou eatest thereof
thou shalt surely die.'
(Gen 2:17)

Hello @Jay Ross,

Thank you for responding to my request in reply #83: that an explanation be given as to why you believe that the word, 'death,' in the Divine warning given to Adam in Genesis 2:17, refers to the second death.

* The words of Genesis 2:17 in the Hebrew/English Interlinear says:-

u.m.otz = 'and.from.tree.of'
e.doth = 'the-knowledge-of'
tub y.ro = 'good and-evil'
la thakl = 'not you-shall-eat'
mm.nu = 'from him'
ki b.ium = 'that in-day-of'
akl.k = 'to eat of you'
mm.nu = 'from him'
muth = 'to-die'
thmuth = 'you-shall-die'

* The words, 'thou shalt surely die', or, 'dying thou shalt die', is a figure of speech called (polyptoton) and is used to emphasize what is being said, so that the words spoken are shown to be emphatic. Eve changed God's certainty into a contingency in Genesis 3:3, with the words, 'lest ye die'.

* There is no clumsiness on the part of the translators. God has preserved His Word (Psalms 12:7).

* Your thoughts on Genesis 2:17, Jay, is conjecture: it has no basis in fact.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour
Chris

www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm

 

[marks]

Eve changed God's certainty into a contingency in Genesis 3:3, with the words, 'lest ye die'.

That's a good point!

Much love!

 

[Jay Ross]

* The words, 'thou shalt surely die', or, 'dying thou shalt die', is a figure of speech called (polyptoton) and is used to emphasise what is being said, so that the words spoken are shown to be emphatic. Eve changed God's certainty into a contingency in Genesis 3:3, with the words, 'lest ye die'.

* There is no clumsiness on the part of the translators. God has preserved His Word (Psalms 12:7).

* Your thoughts on Genesis 2:17, Jay, is conjecture.

Chris, so the outcome of not being righteous during the Final Judgement after Christ returns is then also conjecture. Are you also suggesting that people who do not repent of their iniquities while they live before they physically die by breathing their last breath, will not die the second death.

Was Paul untruthful when he wrote this: -

Romans 6:20-23: - 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. ​

NKJV​

What death was he speaking of?

If he was speaking of the second death and Revelation 20 tells us that the second death awaits those who do not measure up in righteousness, at the end of the seventh age, then if God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, why then is the

muth = 'to-die'
thmuth = 'you-shall-die'

not pointing to the second death.

Is not what you are claim, simply conjecture, based on the flimsy pretext of polyptoton which is used to hid the truth of the context of the verse that is pointing to a future time when the unrepentant iniquities of a person leads to the second death at the end of the age of the ages?

Chris in previous conversations, I have found that there is no point in further discussion, on the topic raised in that conversation, as you stubbornly hold onto the conjecture of what others have written.

It seems I must leave you in your confusion.

Have a good day then.

Shalom

 

[Taken]

Matthew 16:28: –– Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

Mark 9:1: –– And He said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present with power."

Luke 9:27: –– But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the kingdom of God."

John 8:52: –– Then the Jews said to Him, "Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, 'If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.'

Hebrews 2:9: –– But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.


What is being said in these scriptures?

Some standing there that shall not taste death, till they see the Kingdom of God?

Off hand, I find ONE account of someone "standing with them who saw the Kingdom of God", before his physical death.

Rev 1:
[1] The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev 4:
[1] After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
[2] And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Maybe others as well without written accounts.

 

[charity]

Jay Ross said:-
That is why the Prophet Ezekiel said: -

Ezekiel. 18:24: - 24 "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
NKJV

Is not the prophet saying that at the time of the final judgement, that all of his righteousness will be forgotten and he will die the second death.

Hello @Jay Ross,

Ezekiel was made a 'watchman' unto the house of Israel (Ezekiel 3:17) and God says to him,

'Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel:
therefore hear the word at My mouth, and give them warning from Me.
When I say unto the wicked, 'Thou shalt surely die;'
and thou givest him not warning,
nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life;
the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity;
but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Yet if thou warn the wicked,
and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way,
he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity,
and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die:
because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin,
and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered;
but his blood will I require at thine hand.'
(Eze 3:17-20)

* This death was the absence of life at the death of the body. This is not the second death, and I believe that life and death in Ezekiel 18 should be considered in the same light. It is the death of the natural man: which will see corruption. Yet has a resurrection either to life or judgment.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[charity]

Chris, so the outcome of not being righteous during the Final Judgement after Christ returns is then also conjecture.

Hello @Jay Ross,

There is no reason to conjecture, and no reason for confusion: for God has told us what will take place. I believe what God has written in His word. I do not seek to interpret it according to my own understanding.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Jay Ross]

@marks

Chris' statement: - "Eve changed God's certainty into a contingency in Genesis 3:3, with the words, 'lest ye die'." is true. It was her understanding of what Adam conveyed to Eve of God's command found in Genesis 2:17.

Adam chose to rebel against God and our unrepentant rebellion against God only leads to the second death when we stand before the judgement seat at the end of the Age of the Ages.

Every one who has drawn breath from the time of the creation of Adam up and until the time of the GWTR judgement at the end of age of the ages, is judged by what is recorded in the books that are opened, some to everlasting life, whose name is found in the book of life, while the rest of mankind will be sent into the Lake of Fire, which we are told, is the second death.

Adam had an opportunity to say no to the eating of the fruit from the tree of knowledge, but he chose to not rescind Eve's actions and instead also eat from the tree of Knowledge.

In the Law of Moses, if a man upon hearing of an oath that his wife makes, and if he disagrees with what the oath binds them too, does not rescind it immediately, upon hearing of this oath, then he is also bound by that oath of his wife.

Now mark, is this conjecture or a good point?

Shalom

 

[marks]

In the Law of Moses, if a man upon hearing of an oath that his wife makes, and if he disagrees with what the oath binds them too, does not rescind it immediately, upon hearing of this oath, then he is also bound by that oath of his wife.

Are you saying here Eve made an oath, and Adam was bound by it? What was that oath?

Much love!

 

[Jay Ross]

Hello @Jay Ross,

There is no reason to conjecture, and no reason for confusion: for God has told us what will take place. I believe what God has written in His word. I do not seek to interpret it according to my own understanding.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Sadly, Chris, you have, and you are holding onto your conjecture and your own understanding instead of what is plainly written in the scriptures. I wonder why that would be so.

Shalom

 

[marks]

Adam chose to rebel against God and our unrepentant rebellion against God only leads to the second death when we stand before the judgement seat at the end of the Age of the Ages.

They died the second death the same day they ate? And the second death is at the end of the age of the ages. This sounds like a contradiction.

Much love!

 

[Jay Ross]

Are you saying here Eve made an oath, and Adam was bound by it? What was that oath?

Much love!

Your legalism is showing.

Have a good day now.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Matthew 16:28: –– Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

Mark 9:1: –– And He said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present with power."

Luke 9:27: –– But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the kingdom of God."

John 8:52: –– Then the Jews said to Him, "Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, 'If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.'

Hebrews 2:9: –– But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.


What is being said in these scriptures?

Greetings, Jay.

I haven't read through this thread yet, but He was speaking of Hades, where a perpetual state of "death" i.e. dying exists for the damned. It is the same death He is referring to in the Book of Revelations, when He said, "The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire."

Some standing there would still be alive after He descended to the spirits in prison and led captivity captive, when Paradise was essentially taken up into Heaven with Him after His ascension. From that point forward, the righteous no longer descended into the Underworld, but ascended into Heaven after they passed from this life. It was essentially a prophecy about the coming of His harrowing of Hades.

 

[marks]

Your legalism is showing.

Have a good day now.

Interesting!

I was just in the middle of writing a post about why I may agree with your conclusion re Adam's possible repudiation, though I still think it based in conjecture.

Much love!

 

[Jay Ross]

They died the second death the same day they ate? And the second death is at the end of the age of the ages. This sounds like a contradiction.

Much love!

Marks this is why I dislike having a conversation with you because you twist what others write and then argue against what you twist.

No where in my above posts have I claimed that they died the second death the same day they ate from the tree of knowledge.

A better understanding is that on the day that they ate from the tree of knowledge, they became a candidate for the second death if they did not repent of this iniquity. The bible is silent on whether or not Adam and Eve repented in their subsequent conversation with God. However, Eve's acknowledgement of God's goodness can be seen in Genesis 4:1, 25, after the fall.

We all become candidates for the second death when we sin, and our candidacy can only be remove by our whole hearted repentance of our sin to God.

That is the point Ek 18 is making.

Shalom

 

[Jay Ross]

Interesting!

I was just in the middle of writing a post about why I may agree with your conclusion re Adam's possible repudiation, though I still think it based in conjecture.

Much love!

Then why did you not post it? Conjecture is often the basis of our conclusions.