What is God's "Plan" For You?

[The Disciple John]

Anyway it doesn’t the negate how (in the broadest of the view and sense) people can considerably look down on other people while they are secure in their own salvation. It’s really makes me sick to my stomach.

God bless,
In Christ,
Matthew Gallagher

I understand that feeling.
Strange as it may sound, it helps to see it for what it is.

 

[ScottA]

It doesn't appear as though you read the OP... or maybe you did, but can't help that. Must be the spirit within you..
When you are ready to have a Bible discussion, you can always start over... as long as the thread is still opened.

I read the OP.

But what's your point, is the truth not welcome here? Are you not wanting correction or help?

That is not a "discussion", it's an agenda.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Did you read my post?
Hell is not "forever for immortal beings such as Satan and his angels". Revelation 20:13-14
King James Bible
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Hell is cast into the Lake of Fire, after being emptied, and the Lake of Fire is the second death, so Hell does not last forever, but is subjected to a death state - gone for good.

Do you think the second death is hell? If so, the Bible does not say that.
Nowhere does the Bible say the Devil, and the demons, nor those not written in the book of life, are immortal.

Revelation 20:
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The lake of fire is the final hell. Hades is a place for the dead before their resurrections and their judgment to go to heaven or the lake of fire.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

I agree with you.
Nothing or no one can or will stop God from fulfilling his purpose, which never changed - to have a family both in heaven and on earth, living forever.
The adopted sons of God are taken from the earth, for the purpose of reining with Christ, and serving as priests. They can sympathize with our weaknesses, since they too were like us, and experienced the same difficulties.... and there is much more to say on this.

I agree with what you said here and yes there is much more to say on this

 

[The Disciple John]

I read the OP.

But what's your point, is the truth not welcome here? Are you not wanting correction or help?

That is not a "discussion", it's an agenda.

Stated in the OP...
I hope this can be a peaceable discussion, without bringing up the other person's religion as the problem, accusing the person of being blind, unintelligent, or other.
I will try my very best not to even hint that.
That can probably be hard for all of us, but let's try.

Please, take part only if you are interested in a discussion. If your purpose is to preach at the person and tell them that they need to accept Jesus Christ, and repent, and pray for holy spirit, and read the Bible, and... then please do not post in this thread. Thank you

Your words...
Unfortunately, you missed "all truth." Apparently those who taught you were among those who slumber in the same type of blindness that was placed upon Israel until the times of the gentiles are complete, of which there are many generation of people just like yourself.

I did say, I would try my very best not to even hint at another being blind, misled, etc.
I could, like you. I could tell you words similar, but I don't think that is how we have a peaceful Bible discussion.
I think you missed the point Paul is making... but I didn't say that. I did say I was willing to discuss those scriptures with you, but instead of discussing the scriptures I posted, you turned your attention and focus, on me...

 

[The Disciple John]

Revelation 20:
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The lake of fire is the final hell. Hades is a place for the dead before their resurrections and their judgment to go to heaven or the lake of fire.

Where does the Bible say "the lake of fire is the final hell"?

 

[ScottA]

Stated in the OP...
I hope this can be a peaceable discussion, without bringing up the other person's religion as the problem, accusing the person of being blind, unintelligent, or other.
I will try my very best not to even hint that.
That can probably be hard for all of us, but let's try.

Please, take part only if you are interested in a discussion. If your purpose is to preach at the person and tell them that they need to accept Jesus Christ, and repent, and pray for holy spirit, and read the Bible, and... then please do not post in this thread. Thank you

Your words...
Unfortunately, you missed "all truth." Apparently those who taught you were among those who slumber in the same type of blindness that was placed upon Israel until the times of the gentiles are complete, of which there are many generation of people just like yourself.

I did say, I would try my very best not to even hint at another being blind, misled, etc.
I could, like you. I could tell you words similar, but I don't think that is how we have a peaceful Bible discussion.
I think you missed the point Paul is making... but I didn't say that. I did say I was willing to discuss those scriptures with you, but instead of discussing the scriptures I posted, you turned your attention and focus, on me...

I know that you want to control your thread--even peace, and I don't need to interrupt even if you are making errors that should be clarified. You can decide.

But that is how it has been for much of church history. Nonetheless, knowledge increases and all truth is revealed. History now attests to the way it has been since the beginning, and unfortunately for the church the response is also always the same. Those who hear are quenched, and those who quench grip tight to maintain their own control...which they never had.

You decide.

As for Paul's statements in 1 Corinthians 15:24-28, he crosses back and forth over the affairs of the end in what he says, not saying that Christ is under the Father forever (for that is a contradiction of the whole counsel of God), but that before the end Christ is indeed under the Father. This is what brought Paul to say that, "for me to live is Christ", and why Jesus called the Father "My God", but also said "I and the Father are One." In which He did not contradict Himself, but rather, He too spoke of those things that must occur before the end, but also after. For which Paul explains that "the word of truth" must be "rightly divided." So then, we can either read the word of God as men read and understand, or hear what the words say by the Spirit of Truth rightly divided.

Moreover, after the end, we too are also One with the Son and the Father, just as they are One even now.

 

[The Disciple John]

I know that you want to control your thread--even peace, and I don't need to interrupt even if you are making errors that should be clarified. You can decide.

My short experience here tells me, there is a need to "control the thread" since the most one gets here, if they hold a different view, is preached at, told how blind and unintelligent they are, and how they are not Christian; not saved, and blind... basically called anything near to the Devil's slave.
I wanted to avoid having that, and have a Bible discussion.
I don't mind if that keeps most persons away, at least it tells me something.

But that is how it has been for much of church history. Nonetheless, knowledge increases and all truth is revealed. History now attests to the way it has been since the beginning, and unfortunately for the church the response is also always the same. Those who hear are quenched, and those who quench grip tight to maintain their own control...which they never had.

You decide.

I think sometimes 'we' don't realize that the very situation we attribute to others, can be attributed to us.
I think discussion is better than pointing fingers. That's what I have decided - Not to tell you where I think you fit.

As for Paul's statements in 1 Corinthians 15:24-28, he crosses back and forth over the affairs of the end in what he says, not saying that Christ is under the Father forever (for that is a contradiction of the whole counsel of God), but that before the end Christ is indeed under the Father. This is what brought Paul to say that, "for me to live is Christ", and why Jesus called the Father "My God", but also said "I and the Father are One." In which He did not contradict Himself, but rather, He too spoke of those things that must occur before the end, but also after. For which Paul explains that "the word of truth" must be "rightly divided." So then, we can either read the word of God as men read and understand, or hear what the words say by the Spirit of Truth rightly divided.

Moreover, after the end, we too are also One with the Son and the Father, just as they are One even now.

You are merely saying what you believe, while claiming that it's okay for you to decide what Paul is saying, as long as it means what you believe.
Isn't it better to give me scriptures that show that Paul meant something other than what he says?

Because you believe something, it doesn't mean the scriptures should fit your beliefs.
Rather, we... if we are to be humble, should adjust our thinking, to fit the scriptures.
What Paul said does not contradict scripture, but rather, contradicts your belief.
The Word was always subject to God - before coming to earth; while on earth; after returning to heaven.

I don't want to quote those many scriptures, only for you to tell me they don't mean what they say, but mean what you believe, so since I don't see any way how we can actually discuss the Bible, if your position is that everything means what you believe, we can bid each other peace.

I'm curious though. Have you associated with Bahais, by any chance?

 

[ScottA]

My short experience here tells me, there is a need to "control the thread" since the most one gets here, if they hold a different view, is preached at, told how blind and unintelligent they are, and how they are not Christian; not saved, and blind... basically called anything near to the Devil's slave.
I wanted to avoid having that, and have a Bible discussion.
I don't mind if that keeps most persons away, at least it tells me something.

There is only one reason to be fearful of such things. I suggest you--not entertain it, but face it.

 

[ScottA]

I think sometimes 'we' don't realize that the very situation we attribute to others, can be attributed to us.
I think discussion is better than pointing fingers. That's what I have decided - Not to tell you where I think you fit.

If a warning comes that includes pointing the finger at you because it is you who is speaking and you who is in danger...Why would you not want to hear the warning?

 

[ScottA]

You are merely saying what you believe, while claiming that it's okay for you to decide what Paul is saying, as long as it means what you believe.
Isn't it better to give me scriptures that show that Paul meant something other than what he says?

Because you believe something, it doesn't mean the scriptures should fit your beliefs.
Rather, we... if we are to be humble, should adjust our thinking, to fit the scriptures.
What Paul said does not contradict scripture, but rather, contradicts your belief.
The Word was always subject to God - before coming to earth; while on earth; after returning to heaven.

I don't want to quote those many scriptures, only for you to tell me they don't mean what they say, but mean what you believe, so since I don't see any way how we can actually discuss the Bible, if your position is that everything means what you believe, we can bid each other peace.

I'm curious though. Have you associated with Bahais, by any chance?

No, none of what I have said is "what I believe." And why would you categorically not allow for the very means appointed to us for this time, which is that the Holy Spirit that other Helper should reveal the rest of what Christ had to say to His apostles that they could not bear, even if by stones? I have given you scriptures, but what does it matter if you disagree--is that not you saying what you "believe" rather than me? At the very least, we are both guilty. But I have explained that these things were to come--and this too is written.

So then, take your own advice, consider adjusting your thinking--which is not me pointing my finger, but you responding by pointing at me as if we should both have the freedom to be right, but not to be critical. Have you not just thrown your own beliefs about what the scriptures say back at me? And if I have done the same to you first--should I not, thinking that it is right to do so even or especially to a brother? Such a routing will get us nowhere.

As for would be contradictions... I did not give you my beliefs, but explained Paul's words, giving the example of Christ's words. That is the best that can be done, but it only works for you, if you hear His voice. And your explanation of "The Word was always subject to God - before coming to earth; while on earth; after returning to heaven." blatantly contradicts Paul saying it must be "rightly divided." At this I should just stop--for it is obvious that not only do you not hear His voice, but you don't want to.

If you are to hear, you must be inclined to do so. And you have already said you don't want to...for which there is no peace.

So be it.

 

[The Disciple John]

There is only one reason to be fearful of such things. I suggest you--not entertain it, but face it.

Fearful? Are we not supposed to fear God? I don't fear such things. I could be that way and do the same, but I respect the rules of the forums and try to abide by them, and I think that's a good thing, because it prevents pointless attacks on the user, rather than addressing their posts.

If a warning comes that includes pointing the finger at you because it is you who is speaking and you who is in danger...Why would you not want to hear the warning?

Because, I may be pointing my finger at you, and providing the warning, because you are speaking and you are the one who is in danger.

 

[ScottA]

Fearful? Are we not supposed to fear God? I don't fear such things. I could be that way and do the same, but I respect the rules of the forums and try to abide by them, and I think that's a good thing, because it prevents pointless attacks on the user, rather than addressing their posts.


Because, I may be pointing my finger at you, and providing the warning, because you are speaking and you are the one who is in danger.

I believe the rules of the forum are not imposed to restrict the Truth. On the contrary, I should think they are there to protect those who speak it against attack.

As for who it is that is pointing the finger...as I said, I don't need to warn you or disturb you in your doctrine. Thus, "I say to you, you shall hear me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Where does the Bible say "the lake of fire is the final hell"?

What comes after the lake of fire?

 

[The Disciple John]

What comes after the lake of fire?

I don't quite understand what you mean by "What comes after the lake of fire?".

I'll try to answer the question though.
...the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. - Revelation 20:10
...death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. - Revelation 20:14
...whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. - Revelation 20:15

I hope you can appreciate that the lake of fire - the second death is a state, just as death is a state. It represents a final state of not-existence. So that there is no return for anything going there.
This would mean that the Devil; the beast; the false prophet; death; man's burial place (grave - Hades); whosoever was not found written in the book of life, are all gone permanently - forever.

After these are permanently gotten rid of, then comes the end, when he [Christ] delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when he [Christ] puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For he [Christ] must reign till he [Christ] has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. For “He [God] has put all things under His [Christ's] feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He [God] who put all things under Him is excepted. Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. - 1 Corinthians 15:24-28

Recall that the seed was to crush the head of the serpent - Satan the Devil Genesis 3:15
That seed is Christ and the 144,000 heirs of the kingdom - Galatians 3:16, 29
They anticipates this.

I hope that was an answer to your question.
Basically, that is the end of death, and the one who caused it - Hebrews 2:14, and God's purpose would have been accomplished.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I don't quite understand what you mean by "What comes after the lake of fire?".

I'll try to answer the question though.
...the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. - Revelation 20:10
...death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. - Revelation 20:14
...whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. - Revelation 20:15

I hope you can appreciate that the lake of fire - the second death is a state, just as death is a state. It represents a final state of not-existence. So that there is no return for anything going there.
This would mean that the Devil; the beast; the false prophet; death; man's burial place (grave - Hades); whosoever was not found written in the book of life, are all gone permanently - forever.

After these are permanently gotten rid of, then comes the end, when he [Christ] delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when he [Christ] puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For he [Christ] must reign till he [Christ] has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. For “He [God] has put all things under His [Christ's] feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He [God] who put all things under Him is excepted. Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. - 1 Corinthians 15:24-28

Recall that the seed was to crush the head of the serpent - Satan the Devil Genesis 3:15
That seed is Christ and the 144,000 heirs of the kingdom - Galatians 3:16, 29
They anticipates this.

I hope that was an answer to your question.
Basically, that is the end of death, and the one who caused it - Hebrews 2:14, and God's purpose would have been accomplished.

You asked me where I got the idea in the Bible that the lake of fire was the last hell. So if you disagree and don't think it is, then what comes after the lake of fire?

 

[DavidB]

My short experience here tells me, there is a need to "control the thread" since the most one gets here, if they hold a different view, is preached at, told how blind and unintelligent they are, and how they are not Christian; not saved, and blind... basically called anything near to the Devil's slave.
I wanted to avoid having that, and have a Bible discussion.
I don't mind if that keeps most persons away, at least it tells me something.


I think sometimes 'we' don't realize that the very situation we attribute to others, can be attributed to us.
I think discussion is better than pointing fingers. That's what I have decided - Not to tell you where I think you fit.


You are merely saying what you believe, while claiming that it's okay for you to decide what Paul is saying, as long as it means what you believe.
Isn't it better to give me scriptures that show that Paul meant something other than what he says?

Because you believe something, it doesn't mean the scriptures should fit your beliefs.
Rather, we... if we are to be humble, should adjust our thinking, to fit the scriptures.
What Paul said does not contradict scripture, but rather, contradicts your belief.
The Word was always subject to God - before coming to earth; while on earth; after returning to heaven.

I don't want to quote those many scriptures, only for you to tell me they don't mean what they say, but mean what you believe, so since I don't see any way how we can actually discuss the Bible, if your position is that everything means what you believe, we can bid each other peace.

I'm curious though. Have you associated with Bahais, by any chance?

What is seen here is the enmity between the woman’s seed and Satan’s seed. Nothing short of Armageddon will end it.

 

[The Disciple John]

You asked me where I got the idea in the Bible that the lake of fire was the last hell. So if you disagree and don't think it is, then what comes after the lake of fire?

I asked you where in the Bible it says the lake of fire is the last hell. You haven't answered.
I don't understand your question, but I answered it. In all fairness, will you answer mine?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I asked you where in the Bible it says the lake of fire is the last hell. You haven't answered.
I don't understand your question, but I answered it. In all fairness, will you answer mine?

I called the lake of fire that last hell, because it is not the hell that unbelievers go to presently. The lake of fire is in the future. There is no one there now. The first to go into the lake of fire will be the Antichrist. Look at Revelation chapters after 18, I think. When an unbeliever dies now they go to Sheol/Hades/Hell. They all refer to the same place.

Until the time of Jesus, Sheol or Hades, was divided into two sections. One of those is what we now call Hell. This was for unsaved unbelievers. The other section was for genuine believers who lived in Old Testament times, i.e. up until the time of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Until then, any genuine believing Jew would go to the good part of Sheol or Hades which was set apart for them. This was given another name, i.e. “paradise” or “Abraham’s bosom”. It was not heaven, but it was a place where those people were sent by God to wait until the time of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

After Jesus came and paid for their sins on the cross, those believing Jews and also faithful believers in God before the time of Abraham such as Adam, Abel, Seth, Noah, Job, etc, were then taken to Heaven. That is where they are now.

 

[The Disciple John]

I called the lake of fire that last hell, because it is not the hell that unbelievers go to presently.

Oh. You call it that.
In other words there is no place in the Bible that says that, but you said it, so it's fine.
You are not expecting everyone agree that it's fine, I hope.

The lake of fire is in the future. There is no one there now. The first to go into the lake of fire will be the Antichrist. Look at Revelation chapters after 18, I think. When an unbeliever dies now they go to Sheol/Hades/Hell. They all refer to the same place.

What is Hell, and why do you think Sheol/Hades, and Hell refer to the same thing?

Until the time of Jesus, Sheol or Hades, was divided into two sections. One of those is what we now call Hell. This was for unsaved unbelievers. The other section was for genuine believers who lived in Old Testament times, i.e. up until the time of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Until then, any genuine believing Jew would go to the good part of Sheol or Hades which was set apart for them. This was given another name, i.e. “paradise” or “Abraham’s bosom”. It was not heaven, but it was a place where those people were sent by God to wait until the time of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

After Jesus came and paid for their sins on the cross, those believing Jews and also faithful believers in God before the time of Abraham such as Adam, Abel, Seth, Noah, Job, etc, were then taken to Heaven. That is where they are now.

No doubt, this too is something you have decided.
Nowhere in the Bible, can we find that.