What is Mariology?

[Mungo]

Though your Church and others here believe she couldn't sin - do your beliefs differ from the Church?

And your evidence for that claim is?

 

[theefaith]

Though your Church and others here believe she couldn't sin - do your beliefs differ from the Church?

marian dogma’s

102. Mary is truly the Mother of God.
103. Mary was conceived without stain of Original sin.
104. Mary conceived by the Holy Ghost without the co-operation of man.
105. Mary bore her Son without any violation of her virginal integrity.
106. Also after the Birth of Jesus Mary remained a Virgin.
107. Mary was a Virgin before, during and after the Birth of Jesus Christ.
108. Mary was assumed body and soul into Heaven.

 

[theefaith]

And why did he do this for her?

To be the mother of God and bring our savior and our salvation

 

[face2face]

To be the mother of God and bring our savior and our salvation

So you believe Mary brought your salvation?

 

[face2face]

marian dogma’s

102. Mary is truly the Mother of God.
103. Mary was conceived without stain of Original sin.
104. Mary conceived by the Holy Ghost without the co-operation of man.
105. Mary bore her Son without any violation of her virginal integrity.
106. Also after the Birth of Jesus Mary remained a Virgin.
107. Mary was a Virgin before, during and after the Birth of Jesus Christ.
108. Mary was assumed body and soul into Heaven.

You Catholic boys seemed to me having a hard time of it yeah? Was Mary able to sin - your Church states no! But Christ, whose father is God and who you say is God, could sin?

You have a problem.

 

[face2face]

And your evidence for that claim is?

Boy Mungo we have been over this a number of times now...maybe you like going in circles?

Quoted from your precious Ludwig Ott book.

2. Freedom from Actual Sin In consequence of a Special Privilege of Grace from God, Mary was free from every personal sin during her whole life. (Sent. fidei proxima.) The Council of Trent declared: “No justified person can for his whole life avoid all sins, even venial sins, except on the ground of a special privilege from God such as the Church holds was given to the Blessed Virgin” (nisi ex speciali Dei privilegio, quemadmodum de beata Virgine tenet Ecclesia). D 833. Pope Pius XII says in the Encyclical “Mystici Corporis” of the Virgin Mother of God, that: “she was immune from all sin, personal or inherited.” Mary’s sinlessness may be deduced from the text: Luke 1:28: “Hail, full of grace!”, since personal moral defects are irreconcilable with fullness of grace.

Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (St. Louis: B. Herder Book Company, 1957), 203.

Your Church believes Mary couldn't sin, "immune from all sin, personal or inherited" to mean she could do whatever she wanted in the Roman Catholic Churches eyes (and God Himself) and she would be deemed sinless.

You do know what the word "immune" means Mungo"?

The Divine principle that the wages of sin is death didn't apply to Mary. It's also a nice way for Church to fabricate her being raised because the text states of Christ "the grave couldn't hold him"

Its a repulsive teaching that contradicts every principle in Scripture concerning the nature of man and his need for salvation through Christ.

If you cant see that your deception runs very deep indeed.

I never said she was unable to sin. I said she did not sin.

A"free life" is your unbiblical expression.

Hmmm "Freedom from actual sin"

 

[Mungo]

Boy Mungo we have been over this a number of times now...maybe you like going in circles?

Quoted from your precious Ludwig Ott book.

2. Freedom from Actual Sin In consequence of a Special Privilege of Grace from God, Mary was free from every personal sin during her whole life. (Sent. fidei proxima.) The Council of Trent declared: “No justified person can for his whole life avoid all sins, even venial sins, except on the ground of a special privilege from God such as the Church holds was given to the Blessed Virgin” (nisi ex speciali Dei privilegio, quemadmodum de beata Virgine tenet Ecclesia). D 833. Pope Pius XII says in the Encyclical “Mystici Corporis” of the Virgin Mother of God, that: “she was immune from all sin, personal or inherited.” Mary’s sinlessness may be deduced from the text: Luke 1:28: “Hail, full of grace!”, since personal moral defects are irreconcilable with fullness of grace.

Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (St. Louis: B. Herder Book Company, 1957), 203.

Your Church believes Mary couldn't sin, "immune from all sin, personal or inherited" to mean she could do whatever she wanted in the Roman Catholic Churches eyes (and God Himself) and she would be deemed sinless.

You do know what the word "immune" means Mungo"?

The Divine principle that the wages of sin is death didn't apply to Mary. It's also a nice way for Church to fabricate her being raised because the text states of Christ "the grave couldn't hold him"

Its a repulsive teaching that contradicts every principle in Scripture concerning the nature of man and his need for salvation through Christ.

If you cant see that your deception runs very deep indeed.

It's not my precious Ludwig Ott book. You are the one who seems to set great store by it.
It is not an official publication of the Catholic Church.
Why don't you use official Church publications?
For example the Catechism says:
411 The Christian tradition sees in this passage an announcement of the "New Adam" who, because he "became obedient unto death, even death on a cross", makes amends superabundantly for the disobedience, of Adam.305 Furthermore many Fathers and Doctors of the Church have seen the woman announced in the "Proto-evangelium" as Mary, the mother of Christ, the "new Eve". Mary benefited first of all and uniquely from Christ's victory over sin: she was preserved from all stain of original sin and by a special grace of God committed no sin of any kind during her whole earthly life.306

See that "she was preserved from all stain of original sin and by a special grace of God committed no sin of any kind during her whole earthly life."
All it says is that she did not sin.

Then Mystici Corporis in para 110 "It was she, the second Eve, who, free from all sin, original or personal, and always more intimately united with her Son..." Nothing about immunity.
Both quotes from the Vatican web site.

As regards the "quote" from Trent, Ott does not give the source but I did track this down from Session 6 - The Decree on Justification.
CANON XXIII.-lf any one saith, that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he that falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the other hand, that he is able, during his whole life, to avoid all sins, even those that are venial,-except by a special privilege from God, as the Church holds in regard of the Blessed Virgin; let him be anathema.
trent: complete
Again that only says that Mary avoided all sins by a special privilege from God.
In other words - she did not sin.

Hmmm "Freedom from actual sin"

Yes, she did not sin. But your expression "free life" could mean anything you want it to.

 

[face2face]

she was preserved from all stain of original sin and by a special grace of God committed no sin of any kind during her whole earthly life.

So you believe she couldn't sin (preserved somehow), or that she did sin, but God overlooked it (by special grace etc.)?

I also have you on record in this case saying the Ludwig Ott book contains error.

CANON XXIII.-lf any one saith, that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he that falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the other hand, that he is able, during his whole life, to avoid all sins, even those that are venial,-except by a special privilege from God, as the Church holds in regard of the Blessed Virgin; let him be anathema.
trent: complete
Again that only says that Mary avoided all sins by a special privilege from God.
In other words - she did not sin.

Can I say this, that it appears like you don't actually know how Mary was made sinless, or whether she did sin, that it was overlooked, or that she did not sin because God made her of a different nature to the rest of mankind.

What does "Mary avoided all sins" even look like?

Scripture is clear that Jesus is the only sinless human being to ever exist. Romans 5:12-19

Probably best you say "I don't know, I have no evidence and I just blindly accept it as truth"

That way we can bring this discussion to an end and move onto the next insight from the Bible.

 

[tabletalk]

It's not my precious Ludwig Ott book. You are the one who seems to set great store by it.
It is not an official publication of the Catholic Church.
Why don't you use official Church publications?
For example the Catechism says:
411 The Christian tradition sees in this passage an announcement of the "New Adam" who, because he "became obedient unto death, even death on a cross", makes amends superabundantly for the disobedience, of Adam.305 Furthermore many Fathers and Doctors of the Church have seen the woman announced in the "Proto-evangelium" as Mary, the mother of Christ, the "new Eve". Mary benefited first of all and uniquely from Christ's victory over sin: she was preserved from all stain of original sin and by a special grace of God committed no sin of any kind during her whole earthly life.306

See that "she was preserved from all stain of original sin and by a special grace of God committed no sin of any kind during her whole earthly life."
All it says is that she did not sin.

Then Mystici Corporis in para 110 "It was she, the second Eve, who, free from all sin, original or personal, and always more intimately united with her Son..." Nothing about immunity.
Both quotes from the Vatican web site.

As regards the "quote" from Trent, Ott does not give the source but I did track this down from Session 6 - The Decree on Justification.
CANON XXIII.-lf any one saith, that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he that falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the other hand, that he is able, during his whole life, to avoid all sins, even those that are venial,-except by a special privilege from God, as the Church holds in regard of the Blessed Virgin; let him be anathema.
trent: complete
Again that only says that Mary avoided all sins by a special privilege from God.
In other words - she did not sin.




Yes, she did not sin. But your expression "free life" could mean anything you want it to.

Regarding Canon XXIII, 'let him be anathema' : Since there are no more anathemas in your church this canon seems to lose its authority.

 

[Mungo]

So you believe she couldn't sin (preserved somehow), or that she did sin, but God overlooked it (by special grace etc.)?

That is not what I have said.
I have been very clear that I believe that Mary did not sin.
I also believe that The Church teaches that Mary did not sin.

You seem to be desperate to not accept this.
To suggest that it could mean that Mary sinned but it was overlooked is perverse.
Did not sin means did not sin.
Please stop lying about what I say.

I also have you on record in this case saying the Ludwig Ott book contains error.

Maybe Ott made errors, or perhaps the translators made errors. I found this comment in a review of the book
Numerous translation errors unfortunately found in the Lynch-Bastible translation have now been corrected. The Lynch-Bastible translation itself already had a corrigenda that was not implemented in subsequent printings. Further errors were noted by Fr. Camillus Hay, O.F.M. in a 1960 article that made frequent comparisons with the 1955 French translation, and which can be found online. The mistakes noted by Fr. Hay, however, were not exhaustive (as he himself admitted).

Can I say this, that it appears like you don't actually know how Mary was made sinless, or whether she did sin, that it was overlooked, or that she did not sin because God made her of a different nature to the rest of mankind.

No you cannot say that. Again you are making up what I said. That's generally called lying.

What does "Mary avoided all sins" even look like?

It looks like she did not sin. How difficult is that to understand?

Scripture is clear that Jesus is the only sinless human being to ever exist. Romans 5:12-19

Rom 5:12-19 is referring to original sin not personal sin.

Probably best you say "I don't know, I have no evidence and I just blindly accept it as truth"

That way we can bring this discussion to an end and move onto the next insight from the Bible.

You would like that wouldn't you?
But it's not true. I have been clear what I believe I have given you evidence.

 

[Mungo]

Regarding Canon XXIII, 'let him be anathema' : Since there are no more anathemas in your church this canon seems to lose its authority.

No, that does not follow at all.

 

[theefaith]

So you believe Mary brought your salvation?

yes
Lk 2:30

 

[theefaith]

You Catholic boys seemed to me having a hard time of it yeah? Was Mary able to sin - your Church states no! But Christ, whose father is God and who you say is God, could sin?

You have a problem.

there is a distinction between explicit and implicit

there are only 4 Marian dogma’s
4 things are dogmatic
Dogmatic means incontrovertibly true.

Mary is the mother of God:

implicit: mother of our savior / salvation

Mary is a perpetual virgin:

implicit: a vow to God of her virginity

Mary is immaculate conception:

implicit: preserved from all sin

Mary is assumed into heaven:

Implicit: she is crowned by God in heaven as queen of all angels and saints

the four explicit are dogmatic!
Mother of God
Immaculate conception
Perpetual Virgin
Assumption

the others are widely believed along with things like co-redemtrix mediatrix of Grace and spiritual mother of Christians

 

[face2face]

That is not what I have said.
I have been very clear that I believe that Mary did not sin.
I also believe that The Church teaches that Mary did not sin.

You seem to be desperate to not accept this.
To suggest that it could mean that Mary sinned but it was overlooked is perverse.
Did not sin means did not sin.
Please stop lying about what I say.



Maybe Ott made errors, or perhaps the translators made errors. I found this comment in a review of the book
Numerous translation errors unfortunately found in the Lynch-Bastible translation have now been corrected. The Lynch-Bastible translation itself already had a corrigenda that was not implemented in subsequent printings. Further errors were noted by Fr. Camillus Hay, O.F.M. in a 1960 article that made frequent comparisons with the 1955 French translation, and which can be found online. The mistakes noted by Fr. Hay, however, were not exhaustive (as he himself admitted).


No you cannot say that. Again you are making up what I said. That's generally called lying.


It looks like she did not sin. How difficult is that to understand?



Rom 5:12-19 is referring to original sin not personal sin.


You would like that wouldn't you?
But it's not true. I have been clear what I believe I have given you evidence.

Mungo, there is nothing clear about what you have said thus far. You say Mary did no sin but not once have you explained how?

"All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God, even Christ was cursed on the cross but somehow you believe Mary was preserved, to mean it was not possible for her to sin.

Explain the mechanics of how!

 

[face2face]

there is a distinction between explicit and implicit

there are only 4 Marian dogma’s
4 things are dogmatic
Dogmatic means incontrovertibly true.

Mary is the mother of God:

implicit: mother of our savior / salvation

Mary is a perpetual virgin:

implicit: a vow to God of her virginity

Mary is immaculate conception:

implicit: preserved from all sin

Mary is assumed into heaven:

Implicit: she is crowned by God in heaven as queen of all angels and saints

the four explicit are dogmatic!
Mother of God
Immaculate conception
Perpetual Virgin
Assumption

the others are widely believed along with things like co-redemtrix mediatrix of Grace and spiritual mother of Christians

There is nothing here.

 

[face2face]

yes
Lk 2:30

Okay to see Jesus is to see salvation...nothing of Mary here.

 

[Nancy]

Mungo, there is nothing clear about what you have said thus far. You say Mary did no sin but not once have you explained how?

"All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God, even Christ was cursed on the cross but somehow you believe Mary was preserved, to mean it was not possible for her to sin.

Explain the mechanics of how!

Agreed, Mary herself knew she also needed a savior:

Luke 1:45-47
"And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.
46 And Mary said: My soul glorifies the Lord
47 "And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour."

 

[Mungo]

Mungo, there is nothing clear about what you have said thus far. You say Mary did no sin but not once have you explained how?

"All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God, even Christ was cursed on the cross but somehow you believe Mary was preserved, to mean it was not possible for her to sin.

Explain the mechanics of how!

I've told you already.
Post #427
she was preserved from all stain of original sin and by a special grace of God committed no sin of any kind during her whole earthly life
(CCC 411)

I think perhaps your misunderstanding is due to a different understanding of grace between Protestants and Cartholics.
In Protestantism grace is an attitude of God to man.
Thus in your response to the above quote you said:
So you believe she couldn't sin (preserved somehow), or that she did sin, but God overlooked it (by special grace etc.)?
That seems to suggest an attitude of God to Mary.

In Catholic theology there are two distinct kinds of grace – sanctifying grace and actual grace.
Sanctifying grace is what the name implies, it sanctifies us, makes us holy, or rather it makes our souls holy - beautiful and pleasing to God. It is the supernatural life of God living in us. It is a sharing in God’s life.
It us sanctifying grace which makes us a new creation (2Cor 5:17)
Without sanctifying grace, the life of God in our souls, we could not enter heaven and share in God’s life.

The Catechism says this about Sanctifying Grace
1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature. m[1 Cor 2:7-9]

1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification [Jn 4:14; 7:38-39.]:Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself. [2 Cor 5:17-18]

 

[Mungo]

Agreed, Mary herself knew she also needed a savior:

Luke 1:45-47
"And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.
46 And Mary said: My soul glorifies the Lord
47 "And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour."

Yes we know that, but it concerns the Immaculate Conception not ongoing sinlessness.

 

[face2face]

1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification [Jn 4:14; 7:38-39.]:Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself. [2 Cor 5:17-18]

You believe Mary was healed of sin as though human nature has sin in it? i.e if you cut your arm off you have less sin.
So explain what God actually did to Mary physically that she could do no sin (preserved from it).

Mungo, I want your reply in your words.

Free life:

"In consequence of a Special Privilege of Grace from God, Mary was free from every personal sin during her whole life. (Sent. fidei proxima.)
Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (St. Louis: B. Herder Book Company, 1957), 203.

And

The Encyclical Mystici Corporis from Pope Pius XII (1943) holds that Mary was also sinless personally, "free from all sin, original or personal". The catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that by the grace of God "Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long". Wiki which is quoting direct from the Catechism 493:

493 The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God "the All-Holy" (Panagia), and celebrate her as "free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature".138 By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.

The RCC believes Mary was given a free life, we don't know how! Mungo is yet to explain the mechanics! We know she didn't require saving like the rest of humanity because a sinless person cannot perish.

Maybe he will say she was filled with a special Grace which Christ was not ?
Maybe he will say her flesh was not our flesh?
Maybe he will say she had more of the Holy Spirit than Christ himself who could sin?

Wouldn't it be nice to have a Bible verse to show this miraculous story of her immaculate conception?

Nothing.