What is "OSAS"?

[Ernest T. Bass]

These vile extremes do not represent Baptists or other Christians in general in the OSAS camp, so it's an unfair label. There are folks in the NOSAS camp who teach the extreme that if you don't live a sinless, perfect life 100% of the time after conversion then you will lose your salvation, which is also not a fair label to place on people in the NOSAS camp in general. Now those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature (2 Peter 1:4) and have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

It's not about losing our free will but about being new creations in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17) being sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit of promise unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30) and saints being preserved by the Lord. (Psalm 37:28; Jude 1:1)

Works-salvationists cannot understand this because they have not experienced the new birth. (1 Corinthians 2:14) "Nominal" Christians have merely experienced moral self-reformation (instead of regeneration) and condition their salvation on works righteousness based on the merits of their performance. From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is conditional on grace through faith and not works. (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

In regard to Hebrews 4:11, in context, we read in Hebrews 4:1-2 - "For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine believers. Notice that verses 2-3 make a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

In regard to 1 Timothy 5:12, in context, starting in verse 5, we read - "NOW SHE who is really a widow, and left alone, trusts in God and continues in supplications and prayers night and day" and verse 6, "BUT SHE who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives. This means dead (spiritually) while living (physically). Paul said in verse 6, But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives. He also said in verse 11, But refuse to put younger widows on the list, for when they feel sensual desires in disregard of Christ, they want to get married. "Lives in pleasure," "sensual desires." Are you sure they were genuine believers who lost their salvation? If they really were genuine believers, then there would not have been a problem with whether they should or should not be admitted.

If OSAS were true, and salvation were completely totally UNCONDITIONAL then what those Baptist preachers I quoted would be 100% accurate and this is why OSAS is a very vile, false teaching.

Since being saved does not cause loss of free will, then those who choose to believe today can turn and choose to go into unbelief tomorrow hence the warning to those Hebrew Christians about leaving NT Christianity and backsliding to the law of Moses....

Those Hebrews were warned:
Heb 2:1-4 about drifting away from the truths they had heard
Heb 3:12 departing from God due to unbelief

These warnings would be lies if OSAS were true. One cannot drift away from what they never had, one cannot depart from God if one were never of God.

Those Hebrew Christians current state was Heb 5:11 dull of hearing for they had regressed. Heb 6:4-5 speaks of those who were Christians but have "fallen away" (past tense) (v6). If OSAS were true then it renders the words "fallen" and "apostate" meanings for these words show a change of position, a change of location for a fallen person cannot fall for he already is fallen. Falling applies to those who were once saved but have fallen from that standing. Apostate means to move away from a previous standing....

Strong's Greek: 646. ἀποστασία (apostasia) -- defection, revolt

biblehub.com

646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

The "never really saved" excuse ignores and tries to nullify the words "fallen" and "apostate".

-----------------------------------------

(1) Eph 1:13 the Greek word for sealed as used in Eph 1:13 is also used about the tomb of Christ (Matt 27:66) and Christ's tomb was unsealed, hence the idea of "impossible to be unsealed" is not inherit in the meaning of the word.

(2) being sealed and remaining sealed is CONDITIONAL upon faithful obedience to God, NO VERSE teaches the idea of being sealed unconditionally regardless of how a Christian lives


(a) being sealed is found in the OT. The same Greek based word sphragis Paul used for sealed in Eph 1:13 is found in Rom 4:11
"and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them;"
Hence OT circumcision was a seal of one being in an OT covenant relationship with God. Yet this seal would be broken if the Jew did not remain faithful and obedient to God "For circumcision (the seal) indeed profiteth, if thou be a doer of the law: but if thou be a transgressor of the law, thy circumcision is become uncircumcision (seal is broken)." (Rom 2:25)

From the OT we see the Jews did not remain faithfully obedient to God therefore that seal was broken due to their unbelief (Romans 11:16-23) the fleshly Jews were broken off and no longer God's people. Those Jews grieved the Holy Spirit (Isa 63:10,14 cf Eph 4:30)..."But they rebelled, and grieved his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and himself fought against them.....As the cattle that go down into the valley, the Spirit of Jehovah caused them to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name."

As a result of their disobedience to God the seal was broken and the Holy Spirit left them (Psalms 51:11) and became their enemy fighting against them. Those Jews were cut off from the "rest" the Holy Spirit gives. Heb 3:6-19 the Christian likewise can grieve the Holy Spirit and miss out of that rest..."And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief. Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it.....Let us therefore labor to enter into that rest, that no man fall (move from previous standing - apostate) after the same example of disobedience," (Heb 4:1,11)

(b) being sealed in the NT is a corporate sealing. The group Christian is sealed therefore one must obediently become a Christian and faithfully remain in that sealed group. If one becomes unfaithful, disobedient he will fall from the group. The group remains sealed but the individual who falls from the group no longer is sealed for the Bible does NOT teach the idea of indvidiuals being UNconditionally sealed APART from the group. About 25-30 years after Paul wrote his Ephesian epistle, the congregation at Ephesus was warned about falling from this sealed group (Revelation 2:1-7) for they had left their first love, they were FALLEN (change of standing) and commanded to repent else their church (candlestick, Rev 1:20) at Ephesus would be removed by God. If they did not repent they would fall from the sealed group and no longer be sealed and the congregation at Ephesus would no longer be recognized by God.

Thus becoming and remainig sealed in both the OT and NT is CONDITIONAL upon faithful obedience to God.

 

[dev553344]

Can someone please explain OSAS for me?

It is a term for once saved always saved. There is some biblical support for that idea. If you would like I can show you the scriptures that spell this out. But basically God said, "and no one can pluck them from my hand" the people God has chosen to save.

But that does not mean that sinners will not be chastised by God for breaking his laws. And the scriptures clearly dictate to bring people back to repentance that fall away into sin.

Works based salvation has its problems too. For instance, Jesus made a promise to the rich man to save him if he obeyed the commandments and sold all his possessions and gave them to the poor and follow Jesus. So it would seem that some level of perfection was required by Jesus to save people together with their works.

Hmmm.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

For Christians? Only God knows.

1 sin is what scripture days

Adam commited 1 sin and he died (spiritually)

James says a person can keep the whole law and STUMBLE in just one part and he is guilty of the whole law.. what is the penalty? Death.

I suggest you stop excusing your own sin, and stop judging other people who sin like you do. because NO ONE is worthy of salvation

 

[Cassandra]

Take note: After the confusion following the Tower of Babel, came the flood. The next confusion/flood event is not by water, but by fire, that is to say, by the spirit.

The Flood was before the Tower.

 

[Jack]

1 sin is what scripture days

Adam commited 1 sin and he died (spiritually)

James says a person can keep the whole law and STUMBLE in just one part and he is guilty of the whole law.. what is the penalty? Death.

I suggest you stop excusing your own sin, and stop judging other people who sin like you do. because NO ONE is worthy of salvation

I must assume that you're totally making that up since you offer no proof.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Sin, or not to sin, that is the question.

The part-time sinners are entertaining…

 

[PinSeeker]

Free will is choosing between two or more options, therefore people have the free will to choose to whom/what they will enslave themselves to.

Free will ~ although we certainly have wills... ~ has no impact on and thus means nothing regarding whom (or Whom) or what (righteousness or unrighteousness) we are enslaved to. Our wills conform to whom (and to what) we are enslaved, and in that limited sense our wills are never free. If one is not a Christian, his/her father is Satan, and he/she is a slave to unrighteousness,

But if one is a Christian, in Christ, having been born again of the Spirit, he/she has been set free from sin ~ his/her old self was crucified with Christ in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing (but is not nothing yet; that will only be true at the day of Christ), so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin... one who has died has been set free from sin (Romans 6:6-7) ~ and his/her Father is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and he/she is a slave to righteousness.

Again, our wills conform, at any given moment, to whom ~ or alternatively Whom ~ we serve. Therefore, for Christians, obedience and good works ~ works of the Spirit ~ are the result of having been born again from above, the natural outpouring of the faith we have been given.

Now, as human beings, we still struggle in this life to put off the old man and put on the new, but it's a good struggle... we fight the good fight of faith, just as Paul did and exhorted us to do.

Grace and peace to you, Earnest T...

Grace and peace to you, Earnest T.

 

[Jack]

Read the words of the proponents of this false teaching:

Sam Morris, a Baptist preacher in Stamford, Texas wrote a little tract explaining that all the sins one may commit cannot harm the soul or cause the person to be lost. Look at the quote: “We take the position that a Christian's sins do not damn his soul. The way a Christian lives, what he says, his character, his conduct, or his attitude toward other people have nothing whatever to do with the salvation of his soul... All the prayers a man may pray, all the Bibles he may read, all the churches he may belong to, all the services he may attend, all the sermons he may practice, all the debts he may pay, all the or-dinances he may observe, all the laws he may keep, all the benevolent acts he may per-form will not make his soul one whit safer; and all the sins he may commit from idolatry to murder will not make his soul in any more danger... The way a man lives has nothing whatever to do with the salvation of his soul... The way I live has nothing whatsoever to do with the salvation of my soul." (Do a Christian’s Sins Damn His Soul?)


Bill Foster, Baptist preacher in Louisville, KY commented: "If I killed my wife and mother and debauched a thousand women, I couldn't go to hell -- in fact, I couldn't go to hell if I wanted to. If on the judgment day, I should find that my loved ones are lost and should lose all desire to be saved, and should beg God to send me to hell with them, He couldn't do it" (The Weekly Worker, March 12, 1959).

Reminds me of the comment by someone here:

"If I died when I didn’t believe I would have gone to Heaven because there was One Time That I DID Believe.....that’s all it takes...."

 

[mailmandan]

Earnest T Bass said: If OSAS were true, and salvation were completely totally UNCONDITIONAL then what those Baptist preachers I quoted would be 100% accurate and this is why OSAS is a very vile, false teaching.

Completely totally "UNCONDITIONAL" salvation would equate to universalism, which is a false doctrine. From beginning to end, salvation is conditional on faith (not works) as I already explained to you in post #38.

Since being saved does not cause loss of free will, then those who choose to believe today can turn and choose to go into unbelief tomorrow hence the warning to those Hebrew Christians about leaving NT Christianity and backsliding to the law of Moses....

Those Hebrews were warned:
Heb 2:1-4 about drifting away from the truths they had heard
Heb 3:12 departing from God due to unbelief

In regard to Hebrews 2:1-4, certain Hebrews were in danger of drifting away from the truths they had "heard" but apparently the truth did not sink in for those who permanently drift and ultimately fall away.

Hebrews 3:8 - Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness, 9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years. 10 Therefore I was angry with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it. Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Heard the truth for a time, but then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer.

*Jude 1:5 - The Lord delivered His people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast to Christ."

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in their promised Messiah and of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born-again Hebrews who have partaken in Messiah, will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. What about those faltering Hebrews who depart from God begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty. But later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.

These warnings would be lies if OSAS were true. One cannot drift away from what they never had, one cannot depart from God if one were never of God.

OSAS is no lie. One can drift away from what they "heard" without ever being born again. Heard does not necessarily equate to had. In Hebrews 10:39, we read - But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

Those Hebrew Christians current state was Heb 5:11 dull of hearing for they had regressed. Heb 6:4-5 speaks of those who were Christians but have "fallen away" (past tense) (v6). If OSAS were true then it renders the words "fallen" and "apostate" meanings for these words show a change of position, a change of location for a fallen person cannot fall for he already is fallen. Falling applies to those who were once saved but have fallen from that standing. Apostate means to move away from a previous standing....

In regard to Hebrews 6:4-6, see post #83 from the link below:

Can salvation be lost

Nice smokescreen, but I remember what God said. Written to Christians: Philippians 2:12 (NKJV) 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; Notice that Paul said to...

www.christianityboard.com

Strong's Greek: 646. ἀποστασία (apostasia) -- defection, revolt

biblehub.com

646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

The "never really saved" excuse ignores and tries to nullify the words "fallen" and "apostate".

Those who turn away from Christ never really trusted Him to begin with, as 1 John 2:19 says, “They went out from us, but they were not of us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.” Those who apostatize are simply demonstrating that they are not true believers, and they never were. Just like in the Parable of the Wheat and the Tares, we see the same field were growing wheat and “false wheat” (tares or weeds). At first, the difference between the two types of plants was undetectable, but as time went on, the weeds were seen for what they truly were. In the same way, in various churches today, there may be true, born-again believers' side by side with pseudo-Christians/make believers. Such people profess to be Christians but were never truly born again. Judas Iscariot is an excellent example of one who apostatized yet was never truly saved to begin with.

(1) Eph 1:13 the Greek word for sealed as used in Eph 1:13 is also used about the tomb of Christ (Matt 27:66) and Christ's tomb was unsealed, hence the idea of "impossible to be unsealed" is not inherit in the meaning of the word.

Believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession.. (Ephesians 1:13-14) Believers are sealed unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 4:30) *NOWHERE does the Bible say "unsealed."

CONTINUED...

 

[mailmandan]

Earnest T Bass said: (2) being sealed and remaining sealed is CONDITIONAL upon faithful obedience to God, NO VERSE teaches the idea of being sealed unconditionally regardless of how a Christian lives

So how much obedience/works does it take to remain sealed? You clearly teach salvation by works.

(a) being sealed is found in the OT. The same Greek based word sphragis Paul used for sealed in Eph 1:13 is found in Rom 4:11
"and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them;"
Hence OT circumcision was a seal of one being in an OT covenant relationship with God. Yet this seal would be broken if the Jew did not remain faithful and obedient to God "For circumcision (the seal) indeed profiteth, if thou be a doer of the law: but if thou be a transgressor of the law, thy circumcision is become uncircumcision (seal is broken)." (Rom 2:25)

I'm really not interested in your eisegesis. The Holy Spirit is the down payment of our inheritance.

<1,,728,arrabon> originally, "earnest-money" deposited by the purchaser and forfeited if the purchase was not completed, was probably a Phoenician word, introduced into Greece. In general usage it came to denote "a pledge" or "earnest" of any sort; in the NT it is used only of that which is assured by God to believers; it is said of the Holy Spirit as the Divine "pledge" of all their future blessedness, 2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; in Ephesians 1:14; 4:30 particularly of their eternal inheritance.

2 Corinthians 1:21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2 Corinthians 5:5 - Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed unto/for the day of redemption.

From the OT we see the Jews did not remain faithfully obedient to God therefore that seal was broken due to their unbelief (Romans 11:16-23) the fleshly Jews were broken off and no longer God's people. Those Jews grieved the Holy Spirit (Isa 63:10,14 cf Eph 4:30)..."But they rebelled, and grieved his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and himself fought against them.....As the cattle that go down into the valley, the Spirit of Jehovah caused them to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name."

Try not to mix the old and new covenants together. There is a difference between the role of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament and in the New Testament in regard to "indwelling." The New Testament teaches the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit in believers (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30; 2 Corinthians 1:22; 2 Corinthians 5:5). When we place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, we are sealed in Christ by the Holy Spirit. The apostle Paul calls this permanent indwelling the “guarantee of our inheritance” (Ephesians 1:14).

In contrast to this permanent indwelling in the New Testament, the indwelling in the Old Testament was selective and temporary. The Holy Spirit “came upon” such Old Testament people as Joshua (Numbers 27:18), David (1 Samuel 16:12-13) and Saul (1 Samuel 10:10). In the book of Judges, we see the Holy Spirit “coming upon” these various judges whom God raised up to deliver Israel from their oppressors. The Holy Spirit did not permanently indwell them/seal them, but instead, came upon these individuals for specific tasks. So, while in the New Testament the Holy Spirit only indwells believers and that indwelling is permanent, the Holy Spirit came upon certain individuals in the Old Testament for a specific task and not to permanently seal them in Christ.

CONTINUED...

 

[mailmandan]

Earnest T Bass said: As a result of their disobedience to God the seal was broken and the Holy Spirit left them (Psalms 51:11) and became their enemy fighting against them. Those Jews were cut off from the "rest" the Holy Spirit gives.

You seem to be confused about how the Holy Spirit operated in the OT vs. how the Holy Spirit operates in the NT. Once again, while in the New Testament the Holy Spirit only indwells believers and that indwelling is permanent, the Holy Spirit came upon certain individuals in the Old Testament for a specific task and not to permanently seal them in Christ.

Heb 3:6-19 the Christian likewise can grieve the Holy Spirit and miss out of that rest..."And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief. Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it.....Let us therefore labor to enter into that rest, that no man fall (move from previous standing - apostate) after the same example of disobedience," (Heb 4:1,11)

Who has not at one time grieved the Holy Spirit, yet nothing is mentioned in Ephesians 4:30 about being unsealed/losing salvation. Instead, we read sealed unto/for the day of redemption. I already thoroughly covered Hebrews 3:8-14 earlier in this post. Their disobedience was a manifestation of their unbelief.

Once again, in Hebrews 4:1-2 - we read - "For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine believers. Notice that verses 2-3 make a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

(b) being sealed in the NT is a corporate sealing. The group Christian is sealed therefore one must obediently become a Christian and faithfully remain in that sealed group.

So how much obedience/works does it take to become a Christian and how much faithfulness does it take to remain sealed? Where do you draw the line in the sand? You clearly teach salvation by works.

If one becomes unfaithful, disobedient he will fall from the group. The group remains sealed but the individual who falls from the group no longer is sealed for the Bible does NOT teach the idea of indvidiuals being UNconditionally sealed APART from the group.

So just how unfaithful and disobedient would one have to be before they fall from the group? Show me in scripture where we find the wording, "remains sealed" or "no longer sealed" or "unsealed." The Bible clearly states that believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession (Ephesians 1:13-14) and that we are sealed unto/for the day of redemption. (Ephesians 4:30) I believe the apostle Paul over you.

About 25-30 years after Paul wrote his Ephesian epistle, the congregation at Ephesus was warned about falling from this sealed group (Revelation 2:1-7) for they had left their first love, they were FALLEN (change of standing) and commanded to repent else their church (candlestick, Rev 1:20) at Ephesus would be removed by God. If they did not repent they would fall from the sealed group and no longer be sealed and the congregation at Ephesus would no longer be recognized by God.

More eisegesis on your part. In regards to the church in Ephesus in Revelation 2, clearly the Lord wanted the church at Ephesus to repent -- to change their minds regarding their works. "You have left your first love" (verse 4). "Repent and do the first works" (verse 5). Works of love no longer characterized the church as a whole in Ephesus. In verses 2 and 6, we see that the church in Ephesus was not totally displeasing to the Lord, yet hating the deeds of the Nicolaitans and standing up for doctrinal purity still cannot be a substitute for love. So, what did the Lord mean when He spoke of removing the church's lampstand if the church in Ephesus did not repent? The removal of the lampstand is clearly figurative language. This does not mean that individuals in the church at Ephesus will lose their salvation, but the church can forfeit its place of light bearing and witness. Ephesus (located in modern day Turkey) in which the vast majority of Turkey is Islam. Go figure.

Thus becoming and remainig sealed in both the OT and NT is CONDITIONAL upon faithful obedience to God.

False, yet works-salvation is the only thing that the natural man can understand. Old Testament saints were not permanently sealed with the Holy Spirit like they are in the New Testament, as I already explained. You need to rightly divide the word of truth. Ephesians 1:13 says they were sealed upon believing the gospel and not when they accomplished multiple acts of obedience/works afterwards. Nowhere does the Bible mention believers in the New Testament becoming unsealed, so your faithful obedience argument is moot and culminates in salvation by works.

 

[ScottA]

I don't know how my question can be any simpler. You never sin?

You have asked your question of two. I asked before answering, who you were referring to. Is that so hard to understand?

 

[Jack]

You have asked your question of two. I asked before answering, who you were referring to. Is that so hard to understand?

You're very welcome to answer, as is everyone here.

 

[ScottA]

The Flood was before the Tower.

Sorry, my mistake: The evil of mankind, then the flood, then the tower, then confusion, then holy fire. The point I was getting at was that we are now experiencing the confusion that was foreshadowed after the tower of Babel. History repeats itself.

 

[ScottA]

You're very welcome to answer, as is everyone here.

"Why do you seek the living among the dead?"

Your question and the answer must be qualified. You have asked a question like "Where does this road go?" about a road with a fork in it. Thus, you must first answer the question, "To which do you refer, the old man or the new?"

But since you are not understanding even your own question, and as many others also, are apparently stuck in the world of only what is seen and have not fully considered what is also written of what is unseen, I will give you the answer:

The old me was and is a sinner, and shall be a sinner until physical death, just as it is written of Adam and all who are born of women.​

​

The new me on the other hand, does not sin, for I am born of God in whom is no sin, no shadow of turning.​

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Free will ~ although we certainly have wills... ~ has no impact on and thus means nothing regarding whom (or Whom) or what (righteousness or unrighteousness) we are enslaved to. Our wills conform to whom (and to what) we are enslaved, and in that limited sense our wills are never free. If one is not a Christian, his/her father is Satan, and he/she is a slave to unrighteousness,

But if one is a Christian, in Christ, having been born again of the Spirit, he/she has been set free from sin ~ his/her old self was crucified with Christ in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing (but is not nothing yet; that will only be true at the day of Christ), so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin... one who has died has been set free from sin (Romans 6:6-7) ~ and his/her Father is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and he/she is a slave to righteousness.

Again, our wills conform, at any given moment, to whom ~ or alternatively Whom ~ we serve. Therefore, for Christians, obedience and good works ~ works of the Spirit ~ are the result of having been born again from above, the natural outpouring of the faith we have been given.

Now, as human beings, we still struggle in this life to put off the old man and put on the new, but it's a good struggle... we fight the good fight of faith, just as Paul did and exhorted us to do.

Grace and peace to you, Earnest T...

Grace and peace to you, Earnest T.

Again, being saved does not take away the free will for clearly the Christian can choose to turn to live in sin again...

"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Reminds me of the comment by someone here:

"If I died when I didn’t believe I would have gone to Heaven because there was One Time That I DID Believe.....that’s all it takes...."

Yet they cannot show the verse that says the faithless will be saved. Rom 5:2 faith gives access to grace, so if they claim they can be saved faithless then they can be saved graceless also.

 

[Jack]

"Why do you seek the living among the dead?"

Your question and the answer must be qualified. You have asked a question like "Where does this road go?" about a road with a fork in it. Thus, you must first answer the question, "To which do you refer, the old man or the new?"

But since you are not understanding even your own question, and as many others also, are apparently stuck in the world of only what is seen and have not fully considered what is also written of what is unseen, I will give you the answer:

The old me was and is a sinner, and shall be a sinner until physical death, just as it is written of Adam and all who are born of women.​

​

The new me on the other hand, does not sin, for I am born of God in whom is no sin, no shadow of turning.​

Everybody sins.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Everybody sins.

That would make God unjust for killing and punishing men for something they cannot stop doing.

Be careful what kind of God You make with statements like this.

 

[doctrox]

Can someone please explain OSAS for me?

"Eternal Security" is also known as "once saved always saved," or "perseverance of the saints." In other words, once someone accepts Christ as their Lord and Savior, there is nothing that he or she can do to separate himself/herself from God, and they will always be saved. This is a false doctrine. Dozens of passages show, without any doubt, that those who believe in Christ can fall away if they do not practice righteousness.

Parable of sower:

Mark 4:16 (Luke 8:13), "And in a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; (they believe for a while) and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away."

Fallen from grace passage:

Galatians 5:4, "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace."

Pruning passages:

John 15:5-6, "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
Romans, 11:19-23, "You will say then, Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in. Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again."

Hebrews Passages:

Hebrews 6:4-6, "For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame."
Hebrews 10:26-27, "For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries."
Hebrews 10:38-39, "Now the just shall live by faith: ; And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul."

Doctrinal Apostasy passages:

Acts 20:17,28-30, "And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called to him the elders of the church...I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them."
1 Timothy 1:18-21, "fight the good fight, keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander"
2 Timothy 2:16-18, "But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they upset the faith of some."
1 Timothy 4:1, "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons"
1 Timothy 6:20-21, "O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called knowledge-which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith."
2 Peter 2:1, "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves."
2 Peter 3:17, "You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you fall from your own steadfastness."
2 John 8-9 "Watch yourselves, that you might not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son."

Moral Apostasy passages:

1 Timothy 6:9-10, "But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith, and pierced themselves with many a pang."
2 Peter 2:20-22, "For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, A dog returns to its own vomit, and a sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."
James 5:19-20, "My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins."

Revelation passages:

Revelation 2:4-5, "'But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 'Remember therefore from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you, and will remove your lampstand out of its place-unless you repent."
Revelation 3:5, 'He who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels."
Revelation 3:16-17, "So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. 'Because you say, I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing, and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked."

Old Testament passages:

Ezekiel 18:24-26, "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die."

The fact the Bible exhorts to faithfulness proves one can be lost:

1. be "stedfast, unmoveable" (1 Corinthians 15:58).
2. "For if these things be in you" (2 Peter 1:5-11).
3. "we shall reap, if we faint not" (Galatians 6:9).
4. "be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life" (Revelation 2:10).
5. practice these things and God will be with you (Philippians 4:9).

Man has a free will:

Joshua 24:15, "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

The Bible clearly prophesied some would fall away:

Acts 20:28, "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."
1 Timothy 4:1, "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;"