Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Yes, there were queen mothers, but there are also queen-wives. What's your point?
What is the importance of this prophecy
- Thread starter theefaith
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Yes, there were queen mothers, but there are also queen-wives. What's your point?
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
The same way i did , another true believer baptized me . And we have communion together as well .
The bread and the wine . So flee the RCC my friend . You will be prayed for as well .
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
The sacraments are not the basis of our Salvation--Christ is. When you make Christ your Lord, you have all you need for Salvation. Just follow him as Lord, and you'll be fine. Joining thus with Christ *spiritually* you're Baptized with a Spirit Baptism, which is superior to Water Baptism. Water Baptism merely symbolizes the more important Spirit Baptism that Jesus came to bring.
The Eucharist, or Communion Service, is simply Christians getting together and honoring Christ by taking emblems to represent our spiritual participation in his Spirit and in his Life. The big deal is to remember Christ, and to remember that we are to participate in him spiritually, by obeying his word and by living in him.
You missed or bypassed my point again, but perhaps your eyes are dim... Are mine?
Help us all dear Lord!
not in the line of king david
The mother of the king in queen
And the king grants any request she has, especially Jesus who always obeyed His own commandments
Honor thy father and mother
Jn 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.
thanks to mother Mary
you have no priests no bishops no authority
only Peter and the apostles and their successors have authority
Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18
Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.
Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.
Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments
Not biblically
the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ with his priests offering his eternal sacrifice
And the sacraments
Mark 16:16
he who believes and is baptized shall be saved!
Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Born of God) faith and baptism
Jn 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
1 Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
1 pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
1 Peter 1:22
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: see Ez 36
Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, (baptism rom 6:3-4)
1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!)
Try actually reading the Bible. Mary was a virgin WHEN SHE HAD JESUS, but not after that, as it says Joseph had sex with Mary AFTER Jesus was born, as every husband has the legal and moral right to do with his wife. Matthew 1:25
Mary was a Virgin always or not at all
Eve was a Virgin in the garden but did not remain a Virgin so scripture never calls her a Virgin
Mary is called a Virgin
Isa 7:14
Lk 1:27
The Bible never says anyone is a biological child of Mary accept for Jesus Christ!
And the Bible says Her child is holy! And Her child is God!
Is 7:14 God provides a sign, a Virgin shall conceive and bear a son! (Singular, one son)
Ezekiel 44:2 “This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.”
Song of Solomon 4:12 A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.
Matt 1:25 He knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.
2 Samuel 6:23 tells us: Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child UNTIL the day of her death.
Are we to assume that Michal had children after she died?
Until only states that they had no relation up to that point, the Bible does not say they had sex ever, before or after that point!
First born does not imply a second born. An only child is still first born!
The Bible says Joseph a just and therefore a chaste man, it does not say he has gone into Mary where the Holy Spirit has conceived, 2 Sam 12:24 And David comforted Bathsheba his wife, and went in unto her, and lay with her: and she bare a son, and he called his name Solomon: and the Lord loved him. Never says this about a Joseph, for He was full of fear and reverence for Her immaculate purity and holiness!
never says they had sex
lk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Yes, biblically. There isn't a thing I've told you that isn't Bible-based. You just have a different interpretation, placing the Catholic Church and its authorities between you and Christ.
For me, nothing is between Christ and me. Rather, Christ is the thing that is between God and me. He is "God come to me."
The Catholic Church does not "come to me." If they do, they don't bring me Salvation. Only Christ can do that.
You are making a language error. Do you know what a "manner of speaking" means? It means that language is flexible and can connote things that aren't really meant to be taken literally.
Jesus didn't mean to say that the grape juice, or wine, he was drinking was his literal blood! That's pure insanity. Everybody at the table knew exactly what he was saying. He was, in effect, predicting his imminent death, although at that point in time, the disciples really failed to grasp that. However, I feel confident they knew he was *not* saying that the wine they were drinking was his literal blood!
Don't say that what I'm saying is "unbiblical" simply because you fail to understand the nuances of how language is used. It is clearly biblical what I'm saying, that Jesus said, "Do this in remembrance of me." We engage in a symbolic ceremony to remember to grasp the importance of our participation in the life and in the death of Christ. Living in him we also lay down our carnal will to follow him.
This is *not* saying that you must be Water Baptized to be saved! Rather, Jesus is just saying that those who embrace Christianity, exemplified by Water Baptism, will have eternal life, or Salvation. It is the embrace of Christianity that saves--not the Water Baptism. Water Baptism is purely a public representation that one has come to follow Christ. It is in following Christ that we are saved--not in getting wet by Water Baptism!
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
What terrible arguments, brother! Mary is called a "virgin," and that automatically means she has to be a virgin forever? A lot of people are called "virgins," brother--virtually all in ancient Judaism who had not yet been engaged to be married. Did that make them all perpetual virgins?
I think not!So Mary was a virgin always or not at all? What kind of argument is that? Is every young girl who is still a virgin "always a virgin, or not at all?" Absurd argumentation. You're just arguing what you *want* to believe because it's Catholic tradition. There isn't a bit of rationality in your arguments.
Jewish tradition would hardly have a woman married only to remain a virgin! This is against Jewish culture, and certainly not said in the Bible.
Jesus being God does *not* make Mary a virgin in perpetuity. It only makes her a virgin before giving birth to the God-Man!
This says not a single thing about Mary remaining a virgin! Talk about an absurd argument! If the Holy Spirit had wanted to say Mary was a perpetual virgin, it would've been said in the clearest possible fashion. In fact it would likely have to be said, since it was against Jewish culture for a married women to deny her husband. Paul himself denied a married woman the right to remain without sexual relationship.
This is what a virgin is before she marries, or before she actually *consummates* her marriage.
This was a curse upon Michal, and has nothing to do with Mary. Mary and Michal are about as far apart spiritually as one can be!
There are a lot of things the Bible doesn't say, and it likely would not describe Michal's sex life. What it does say is that her irreligiosity brought down a curse upon her so that she could not have children. That did not mean she couldn't have sex or didn't have sex.
First born does not imply there is no next born, etc.
Comparing David's sin and Joseph's abstinence bears no relationship at all with one another. Obviously, one person may capitulate to illegitimate sexual practices, whereas another may obey God on a given occasion. If we are to properly compare David and Joseph, you will discover that David was repentant and continued to live a very godly, obedient life overall. Joseph also had his moment of unbelief and doubt, I'm sure.
Arguments from Silence do *not* hold water! Why would someone's sex life be on open display ever?
Not the point. Mary was a virgin before she had Jesus. Then, after she had Jesus, she likely had other children. Your arguments bear no resemblance to common logic. Obviously, the arguments are not what convinces you. Rather, Catholic Tradition convinces you, without any regard for the Scriptural arguments at all. None of your arguments mean anything in this discussion.
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Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Found no where in all of God's Word. Else you would have provided proof. Man made opinion only.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure what the code was. God wasn't for royalty originally, in the earthly sphere. True royalty comes from heaven. However, God tolerated royalty in Israel. And it seems there were queen mothers and queen wives. Males tended to have the governmental and family authority, but that is not to say that females did not have their own kind of authority. They also were given to "subdue the earth." Those who step outside of God's authority to abuse females will pay the price of divine anger.
So often, kings had wives that shared some of their authority in the kingdom. Why you would think not, I don't know?
Mary's story about asking Jesus to help with wine at a wedding has nothing to do with her being a "queen." She simply knew what Jesus was like and what he was capable of. And she called upon him like any of us would call upon God in prayer. She could never demand anything of Jesus--he could do no wrong.
Rather, Jesus did the miracle. It was to glorify his Father in heaven, and to direct us to him--not to Mary. Mary was graciously allowed to participate in the story.
Keraz
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The act of childbirth would destroy a woman's virginity.
You are wrong theefaith and your beliefs are not Biblical. The Roman Catholic Church will not be spared Judgment in the last days. Revelation 17:1-18
Yes, biblically. There isn't a thing I've told you that isn't Bible-based. You just have a different interpretation, placing the Catholic Church and its authorities between you and Christ.
For me, nothing is between Christ and me. Rather, Christ is the thing that is between God and me. He is "God come to me."
The Catholic Church does not "come to me." If they do, they don't bring me Salvation. Only Christ can do that.
You are making a language error. Do you know what a "manner of speaking" means? It means that language is flexible and can connote things that aren't really meant to be taken literally.
Jesus didn't mean to say that the grape juice, or wine, he was drinking was his literal blood! That's pure insanity. Everybody at the table knew exactly what he was saying. He was, in effect, predicting his imminent death, although at that point in time, the disciples really failed to grasp that. However, I feel confident they knew he was *not* saying that the wine they were drinking was his literal blood!
Don't say that what I'm saying is "unbiblical" simply because you fail to understand the nuances of how language is used. It is clearly biblical what I'm saying, that Jesus said, "Do this in remembrance of me." We engage in a symbolic ceremony to remember to grasp the importance of our participation in the life and in the death of Christ. Living in him we also lay down our carnal will to follow him.
This is *not* saying that you must be Water Baptized to be saved! Rather, Jesus is just saying that those who embrace Christianity, exemplified by Water Baptism, will have eternal life, or Salvation. It is the embrace of Christianity that saves--not the Water Baptism. Water Baptism is purely a public representation that one has come to follow Christ. It is in following Christ that we are saved--not in getting wet by Water Baptism!
we see how fundamentalism negates the word of God!
Mark 7:13
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Mark 7:13
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
1 cor 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
1 cor 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
Notice the connection between the Eucharist and the passion of Jesus Christ!
It is the sacrifice of Christ!
The promise (sacred oath or sacrament) of the Father acts 2:38-39 with reference to ez 36:25-27
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Jn 3:5 born again by water and the spirit.
Heb 7:21 For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
(Oath = sacrament)
Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Based on Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
A promise is a sacred oath or sacrament!
Baptismal regeneration is the promise of the Father for union in the new covenant!
The church and the seven sacraments are necessary for salvation
Better covenant on better promises
2 Timothy 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
Life of supernatural grace merited by Christ in His passion and death!
An oath to sacramental life in the new covenant in union with the mediator and communion with God, and the saints!
Promise of the Father acts 2:23-39
Promise is an oath and an oath is a sacrament! This promise of the sacrament of baptism refers to ez. 36:25-27
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!)
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Jn 3:5 born again by water and the spirit.
Heb 7:21 For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
(Oath = sacrament)
Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Based on Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
A promise is a sacred oath or sacrament!
Baptismal regeneration is the promise of the Father for union in the new covenant!
The church and the seven sacraments are necessary for salvation
Better covenant on better promises
2 Timothy 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
Life of supernatural grace merited by Christ in His passion and death!
An oath to sacramental life in the new covenant in union with the mediator and communion with God, and the saints!
Promise of the Father acts 2:23-39
Promise is an oath and an oath is a sacrament! This promise of the sacrament of baptism refers to ez. 36:25-27
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!)
What terrible arguments, brother! Mary is called a "virgin," and that automatically means she has to be a virgin forever? A lot of people are called "virgins," brother--virtually all in ancient Judaism who had not yet been engaged to be married. Did that make them all perpetual virgins?
So Mary was a virgin always or not at all? What kind of argument is that? Is every young girl who is still a virgin "always a virgin, or not at all?" Absurd argumentation. You're just arguing what you *want* to believe because it's Catholic tradition. There isn't a bit of rationality in your arguments.
Jewish tradition would hardly have a woman married only to remain a virgin! This is against Jewish culture, and certainly not said in the Bible.
Jesus being God does *not* make Mary a virgin in perpetuity. It only makes her a virgin before giving birth to the God-Man!
This says not a single thing about Mary remaining a virgin! Talk about an absurd argument! If the Holy Spirit had wanted to say Mary was a perpetual virgin, it would've been said in the clearest possible fashion. In fact it would likely have to be said, since it was against Jewish culture for a married women to deny her husband. Paul himself denied a married woman the right to remain without sexual relationship.
This is what a virgin is before she marries, or before she actually *consummates* her marriage.
This was a curse upon Michal, and has nothing to do with Mary. Mary and Michal are about as far apart spiritually as one can be!
There are a lot of things the Bible doesn't say, and it likely would not describe Michal's sex life. What it does say is that her irreligiosity brought down a curse upon her so that she could not have children. That did not mean she couldn't have sex or didn't have sex.
First born does not imply there is no next born, etc.
Comparing David's sin and Joseph's abstinence bears no relationship at all with one another. Obviously, one person may capitulate to illegitimate sexual practices, whereas another may obey God on a given occasion. If we are to properly compare David and Joseph, you will discover that David was repentant and continued to live a very godly, obedient life overall. Joseph also had his moment of unbelief and doubt, I'm sure.
Arguments from Silence do *not* hold water! Why would someone's sex life be on open display ever?
Not the point. Mary was a virgin before she had Jesus. Then, after she had Jesus, she likely had other children. Your arguments bear no resemblance to common logic. Obviously, the arguments are not what convinces you. Rather, Catholic Tradition convinces you, without any regard for the Scriptural arguments at all. None of your arguments mean anything in this discussion.
there’s always matt 16:18
1 kings 2:12 Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly.
13 And Adonijah the son of Haggith came to Bathsheba the mother of Solomon. And she said, Comest thou peaceably? And he said, Peaceably.
14 He said moreover, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And she said, Say on.
15 And he said, Thou knowest that the kingdom was mine, and that all Israel set their faces on me, that I should reign: howbeit the kingdom is turned about, and is become my brother's: for it was his from the Lord.
16 And now I ask one petition of thee, deny me not. And she said unto him, Say on.
17 And he said, Speak, I pray thee, unto Solomon the king, (for he will not say thee nay,) that he give me Abishag the Shunammite to wife.
18 And Bathsheba said, Well; I will speak for thee unto the king.
19 Bathsheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her, and sat down on his throne, and caused a seat to be set for the king's mother; and she sat on his right hand.
20 Then she said, I desire one small petition of thee; I pray thee, say me not nay. And the king said unto her, Ask on, my mother: for I will not say thee nay.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
So all of your arguments about Mary's supposed perpetual virginity really have to do with upholding Catholic tradition? Incidentally, stating Peter as being part of the foundation of the Church bears no relation to establishing an ecclesiastical tradition. We know not only how Peter is perceived of as being a foundation of the Church, but we also know that others were equally part of this foundation.
Rev 21.14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
This shows that Peter was one of 12 foundational members of the Church, including all 12 original apostles of Christ. They initiated the Church by transmitting Christ's doctrines to the first churches.
Rev 21.19 The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth onyx, the sixth ruby, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth turquoise, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst. 21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl. The great street of the city was of gold, as pure as transparent glass.
We know from this that this was not about founding an ecclesiastical tradition, but rather, about establishing that Christ is the entry into the Kingdom of heaven. All 12 apostles carried the message that Christ was the "pearl of great price." The message was about universal Christendom, and not limited to a particular ecclesiastical tradition. It was about entry into the Kingdom of God through Christ, and not through the Church. It was about beautifying the Church through Christian transformation, and not purely about a Christian "pecking order."
You think the existence of Bathsheba as a queen mother is "proof" of Mary's perpetual virginity? How strange! If that's your proof, it's an indication you have nothing but Catholic tradition to back up this absurd claim.
It is Jewish law for a son to honor his mother. And so, a Jewish king honors his mother, so long as she observes the Law. The existence of a queen mother is simply part of this tradition--it neither establishes Mary's perpetual virginity nor shows Mary as somehow equal in authority to Jesus. Jesus' authority is from heaven, and he had no royal position on earth, nor will he exercise his royal authority on earth until the Kingdom comes.
I think your confusing two things
One is the Queenship of Mary
The other is the perpetual virginity of Mary
All of the doctrines about Mary were defended by the Protestant so called reformers only the fundamentalists deny them
Martin Luther
It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin. … Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact. (Weimer’s The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v. 11, pp. 319-320; v. 6. p. 510.)
John Calvin
(On the Heretic Helvidius) Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s “brothers” are sometimes mentioned. (Harmony of Matthew, Mark and Luke, sec. 39 [Geneva, 1562], vol. 2 / From Calvin’s Commentaries, translated by William Pringle, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55)
[On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called “first-born”; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 107)
Under the word “brethren” the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary on John, [7:3])
John Wesley
‘I believe that He [Jesus] was made man, joining the human nature with the divine in one person; being conceived by the singular operation of the Holy Ghost, and born of the blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as before she brought Him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin’ (‘Letter to a Roman Catholic’, The Works of Rev. John Wesley, vol 10, p. 81).
Scripture has Mary a Virgin
And perpetual
Isa 7:14
Lk 1:34
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