What is the importance of this prophecy

[Ronald Nolette]

then how as Rachel the spiritual mother of the children of Israel when she was only biologically the mother of two of them?


Rachel is spiritual mother of Israel!
A type of Mary as spiritual mother of Christians!

The 12 sons of Jacob have 4 biological mothers, but Rachel is the spiritual mother of all Israel!

Matt 2:18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are no more.

You are taking types and shadows and conflating them to0 massive doctrines with unbiblical philosophy.

Rachel stood for the women of Israel. No where will you find in Jewish writing that Rachel is the spiritual mother of Israel. she represents the women the women who wept fortheir children lost. It was also a shadow of the time Herod slaughtered the innocents in Bethlehem. But calling her "spirituyal mother" of Israel is completely unwarranted.

I think the roman church created this falsehood in order too justify elevating Mary to Queen of Heaven as was their pagan roots held.

 

[theefaith]

You are taking types and shadows and conflating them to0 massive doctrines with unbiblical philosophy.

Rachel stood for the women of Israel. No where will you find in Jewish writing that Rachel is the spiritual mother of Israel. she represents the women the women who wept fortheir children lost. It was also a shadow of the time Herod slaughtered the innocents in Bethlehem. But calling her "spirituyal mother" of Israel is completely unwarranted.

I think the roman church created this falsehood in order too justify elevating Mary to Queen of Heaven as was their pagan roots held.

then how are these Rachel’s children?

Matt 2:18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are no more.

there not all her biological descendants

 

[theefaith]

And the spiritual children of Mary keep the children commandments and have the testimony of Jesus rev 12:17

precisely because she is their mother and obtained grace and salvation

 

[Amazed@grace]

lk 2:35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

I think it foretells Jesus being pierced in his side during his crucifixion. Those attending, many who would have witnessed crucifixions before, would have certainly known the piercing by the sword in Jesus' side proved he was dead.
The test of the faith of those people would come with news of his resurrection.

Faith in the Romans crucifixion method vs. faith in Jesus promise that death would not hold him.

That's how I see it anyway.

 

[Gary Urban]

mother of sorrows our model in honoring the wounds blood and passion of christ

The man of sorrow (Jesus) honoring the work of the father to strengthen the Son of man Jesus empowering him to finish the work of two working as one God .

Mary was not crucified for the sin of the world .Jesus suffered for her sin like any other sinner. .

 

[Gary Urban]

And the spiritual children of Mary keep the children commandments and have the testimony of Jesus rev 12:17

precisely because she is their mother and obtained grace and salvation

I think you meant sister in the Lord . The whole church is considered the mother us all .His bride the freewoman.


So yes in the same way all born again believers. By the incorruptible seed the gospel as it is written(sola scriptura)

Teaching that only our blessed sister in the lord received the fullness of grace while the rest of the sinners a unknown unknowable remnant of grace and even after they take their last breath it remains a unknown remnant and they must suffer in a place called purgatory for another unknown remnant .That teaching is simply trying to sell the doctrine of mystical wonderments never coming to the end of faith the salvation of one soul.

The believer receives the fullness of grace from the beginning of their new born again faith

1 Peter 1:8-10 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

Thei is no prophecy that informs us of recieve a unkown remnant of grace and must continue to wonder forever ..

 

[Timtofly]

Christ is God, savior, mediator and head yes, but he ascended to heaven leaving peter and the apostles in charge

He left them to make disciples, not to be in charge. Babylon is being in charge. Being a disciple is taking people out of Babylon, not putting them in the bondage of a hierarchy.

 

[amadeus]

And the spiritual children of Mary keep the children commandments and have the testimony of Jesus rev 12:17

precisely because she is their mother and obtained grace and salvation

Mary like Rachel is one of the types or shadows of the real Mother, which is the Church. The Church encompasses more than some within formal Catholicism. It includes everyone who is, or who is to be, subject to the Head, which is Christ Jesus. The connection between the various members to one another and to the Head is the Holy Spirit. People who quench the Spirit, if they persist in that, be they Catholic or other believer, will die for lack of nourishment. There will be I would say too many of those:

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matt 7:13-14

"Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed." John 6:53-55

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:" Amos 8:11

 

[Ronald Nolette]

then how are these Rachel’s children?

Matt 2:18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are no more.

there not all her biological descendants

Re read my post, if you pay attention this time, you will not sound like you didn't bother to read it in the first place.

It amazes me how you twist words that are clear and plain.

 

[theefaith]

The man of sorrow (Jesus) honoring the work of the father to strengthen the Son of man Jesus empowering him to finish the work of two working as one God .

Mary was not crucified for the sin of the world .Jesus suffered for her sin like any other sinner. .

she was sinless

 

[theefaith]

He left them to make disciples, not to be in charge. Babylon is being in charge. Being a disciple is taking people out of Babylon, not putting them in the bondage of a hierarchy.

God always establishes order in men with the people’s obedience to hierarchical authority!

The angelic order!
The church order!
The family order!
The civil order!

All require obedience to hierarchical authority!

The church is not a democracy but a kingdom!

Joseph administered the kingdom under pharaoh while receiving obedience from His brothers!

Genesis 42:6
And Joseph was the governor over the land, and he it was that sold to all the people of the land: and Joseph's brethren came, and bowed down themselves before him with their faces to the earth.

Without a central authority there can be no unity of the spirit, no obedience to the faith!
God - Christ - Peter - the apostles - the apostles successors - the people

The nature of the church is authority in hierarchy producing order!
Unity of the truth (thee faith) and the spirit!

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.


What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

The apostles are Christ’s successors!
They have authority to send others as well, apostle means one who is sent!

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Christ is an apostle, and has authority to send other apostles, the apostles also have this authority, so the apostles continue down thru the centuries as Christ promised! Matt 28:19-20

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments




Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.


Successors of Jesus Christ!

Jesus already prepares His apostles to continue His mission with His power (binding and loosing) and with His authority (keys) matt 16:18 matt 18:18

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

John 4:1 when therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John...
Jn 4:2 Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples

Here we see Jesus delegating to His successors, Peter and the apostles!

Jn 15:5 apart from me you can do nothing

There can be no unity of the spirit without obedience to the faith! Rom 1:5 eph 4:3

Matt 28 I am with you (the apostles)

The papacy based on Matt 16:18 and Isa 22:21-22

Matt 16:18-19
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Isa 22:21-22
21 And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.

22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

Behold I am with you (the successors or the apostles until the end of the age, so the successors must remain until the end of the age) matt 28:19

(None of the so called reformers were apostles) (no man has authority to start a church)

 

[Timtofly]

God always establishes order in men with the people’s obedience to hierarchical authority!

The angelic order!
The church order!
The family order!
The civil order!

All require obedience to hierarchical authority!

The church is not a democracy but a kingdom!

Joseph administered the kingdom under pharaoh while receiving obedience from His brothers!

Genesis 42:6
And Joseph was the governor over the land, and he it was that sold to all the people of the land: and Joseph's brethren came, and bowed down themselves before him with their faces to the earth.

Without a central authority there can be no unity of the spirit, no obedience to the faith!
God - Christ - Peter - the apostles - the apostles successors - the people

The nature of the church is authority in hierarchy producing order!
Unity of the truth (thee faith) and the spirit!

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.


What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

The apostles are Christ’s successors!
They have authority to send others as well, apostle means one who is sent!

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Christ is an apostle, and has authority to send other apostles, the apostles also have this authority, so the apostles continue down thru the centuries as Christ promised! Matt 28:19-20

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments




Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.


Successors of Jesus Christ!

Jesus already prepares His apostles to continue His mission with His power (binding and loosing) and with His authority (keys) matt 16:18 matt 18:18

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

John 4:1 when therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John...
Jn 4:2 Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples

Here we see Jesus delegating to His successors, Peter and the apostles!

Jn 15:5 apart from me you can do nothing

There can be no unity of the spirit without obedience to the faith! Rom 1:5 eph 4:3

Matt 28 I am with you (the apostles)

The papacy based on Matt 16:18 and Isa 22:21-22

Matt 16:18-19
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Isa 22:21-22
21 And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.

22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

Behold I am with you (the successors or the apostles until the end of the age, so the successors must remain until the end of the age) matt 28:19

(None of the so called reformers were apostles) (no man has authority to start a church)

You seem to have no Biblical authority for your human aspirations. The church is not a kingdom. The church is a called out assembly at best. A civil authority at it's worse.

 

[theefaith]

You seem to have no Biblical authority for your human aspirations. The church is not a kingdom. The church is a called out assembly at best. A civil authority at it's worse.

The church is a kingdom, we have a king

Dan 2: 44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Lk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Matthew 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Matt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

 

[Timtofly]

The church is a kingdom, we have a king

Dan 2: 44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Lk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Matthew 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Matt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

A kingdom that cannot be observed has authority that cannot be observed. There is no observable hierarchy.

 

[theefaith]

A kingdom that cannot be observed has authority that cannot be observed. There is no observable hierarchy.

matt 10:2-3

 

[Ronald Nolette]

she was sinless

Wrong again! If she was sinless she had no need for a savior.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The angelic order!
The church order!
The family order!
The civil order!

All require obedience to hierarchical authority!

The church is not a democracy but a kingdom!

Sorry the church is an organism known as the body of Christ. We live inn a kingdom under a king.

You have authority messed up.

First and foremost is being under authority to God.

Then comes family.

Then comes church and government , only as long as they are following Scripture. If either requires a believer to obey an unbiblical rule, they have left legitimate authority and do not have to be obeyed in that requirement.

Angles are our servants, we are not under any angelic authority.

 

[theefaith]

Wrong again! If she was sinless she had no need for a savior.

the angles have an order and hierarchy
Angels, archangels so on

Mary was preserved from sin by God in virtue of Christ’s merits

 

[theefaith]

Sorry the church is an organism known as the body of Christ. We live inn a kingdom under a king.

You have authority messed up.

First and foremost is being under authority to God.

Then comes family.

Then comes church and government , only as long as they are following Scripture. If either requires a believer to obey an unbiblical rule, they have left legitimate authority and do not have to be obeyed in that requirement.

Angles are our servants, we are not under any angelic authority.

I did not put them in any order
Where does it say only if they follow scripture?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I did not put them in any order
Where does it say only if they follow scripture?

So you believe if the church declares homosexuality to no longer be a sin- you will follow that instead of Scripture? Sorry but the church (and that includes all its leaders ) are under the authority of Scripture. they only derive their authority because of being faithful to Scripture.