What is the initial evidence of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit?

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St. SteVen

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In a previous topic we explored why the baptized believers in Samaria hadn't received the Holy Spirit.

Why hadn't the baptized believers in Samaria received the Holy Spirit?

The typical response to the question about the initial evidence of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, is tongues.
But when I read the book of the Acts of the Apostles, I see it is not limited to tongues.
I conclude that any manifestation of the Holy Spirit could be the initial evidence.

Would you limit the initial evidence to speaking in tongues?

Here are the scriptures that led to my conclusions on this.

Acts 10:46 NIV
For they heard them speaking in tongues[a] and praising God. ...

Acts 19:6 NIV
When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them,
and they spoke in tongues[a] and prophesied.

/
 

Tommy Cool

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I agree any of the manifestation would be evidence, although tongues is the predominant evidence.

The magnifying (praising) God in Acts_10:46 is a result of speaking in tongues, it is not listed as a manifestation of the spirit in 1 Corinthians 12 ……………but prophecy absolutely is.



Going back to the link you provided Why hadn't the baptized believers in Samaria received the Holy Spirit?

Under the facts #2 you stated they were water baptized and I don’t think we can guess at that…. It may have been, but it doesn’t say …However Act 19:3 does state John’s (water) baptism.


There is another reason that is not noticeable in the English…. which is think is what happened in Samaria and is still happening today with many believers …. It has to do with the word receive.

Act 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received (dechomai) the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive (lambanō) the Holy Ghost:

Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Act 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received (lambanō) the Holy Ghost.


As you can see in verse 16 they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus (not John’s) but they had not manifested tongues ….probably due to a lack of teaching.

Next to the words receive I have put the two primary Greek words used in the Bible translated into our one English word receive ….

dechomai…. is a subjective reception.

lambanō…. is and objective reception…. to receive into manifestation (evidence)



If I gave you a knife and you received it… but put it in your pocket that is…. dechomai

If I gave you a knife and you received it… and started carving a pumpkin with it…. that is … lambanō

In both cases you received the knife ….but (dechomai) you did nothing with it… just as those in Samaria had done (they probably didn’t know it was available) in verse 16 ….they accepted the Lord Jesus and were born again but did not manifest.
However, when you received the knife and started carving the pumpkin (lambanō) you received it into manifestation….as they did in verse 17.
 
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St. SteVen

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There is another reason that is not noticeable in the English…. which is think is what happened in Samaria and is still happening today with many believers …. It has to do with the word receive.
That's interesting. Great post, thanks.

How could believers today activate the indwelling Spirit to "receive"? (lambanō)

/
 

MatthewG

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Some type of change of heart, which comes by the spirit. ( I dont believe tongues still exist today Paul mentioned they would cease in 1 Corinthians 13.)

Deuteronomy 30:6​

Young's Literal Translation​

6 `And Jehovah thy God hath circumcised thy heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, for the sake of thy life;

The change of heart that comes from Yahava, is for the sake of ones life. A change from old life to new life, in Christ today.
 

Tommy Cool

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That's interesting. Great post, thanks.

How could believers today activate the indwelling Spirit to "receive"? (lambanō)

/
Knowing it is available …

I know that sounds simple, but so many don’t believe it’s available or that God hasn’t given them what …they mistakenly think is a gift …but it’s not a gift … It is a manifestation (evidence) of the gift of holy spirit (as are the other 8) that we receive (dechomai) when we are born again.

Due to the added word gifts by translators (in ..1 Cor 12:1, 13:2, 14:1 &12) which lends itself to the misunderstanding of the manifestations, many people completely ignore what verse 1Co 12:7 states…. because people have a tendency to read what they believe.

But if God was selective on who received certain things… it would make Him a respecter of persons, He’s not (Act 10:34).

In addition 1Co 12:11 which is misunderstood due to the word severally (idios) which should be translated “his own” or “ones own”. And they quote it as being God wills, who receives or who doesn’t…butverse 11 doesn’t say that …. if it did it would contradict verse 7 →“given to every man”. …But people are still going to read what they believe… and unfortunately many have been taught those manifestations are no longer necessary or ceased with the apostles.



The night I spoke in tongues…. There is many details but I’ll spare you.

I was in the basement ready to take my life and my sister came through and tossed a book at me and said “someone gave me …but you need it more than me”… the book Power in Praise.

For some odd reason I started reading it. I had opened it up to a part that said something like…. By accepting Jesus as your Lord… God will give you a heavenly language to speak …I don’t remember the exact wording, but I definitely needed help… so I accepted Jesus and opened my mouth and began to speak …I was totally blown away….It was indiscernibly awesome!!!!

Now, I had never heard of tongues or heard it done ….but it was there! I stopped and started …stopped and started for well over an hour …then I went out about 1 in the morning and found several people I knew …told them about it and they all spoke in tongues …that was decades ago …I still have the same tongues as that night. …and it never gets old.

Since that time I have guided (from the Word) several hundred people into tongues …Never in my time has anyone not manifested ….because it’s not me…. It’s God
 

Tommy Cool

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Some type of change of heart, which comes by the spirit. ( I dont believe tongues still exist today Paul mentioned they would cease in 1 Corinthians 13.)
Fortunately, God doesn’t cancel things based on a person’s belief.

Do you think any of the things on this list were only necessary during the time of the apostles... and we have no need for them today because they are irrelevant. …so God cancelled them.


Benefits of Speaking in Tongues


The primary purpose of tongues is designed for the individual believer in his/her private prayer life. It edifies the believers

It is also a sign → when in a group meeting and the person speaking, also interprets.


1. To speak the wonderful works of God
Act 2:11
Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.


2.
To magnify God
Act 10:46
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

3.
To give thanks well
1Co 14:17
For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

4. To bring a message from God {when interpreted}
1Co 14:5& 27

5)except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

27
) If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let that one interpret.

5. Sign to the unbelievers
1Co 14:22,,,,, Mar 16:17

1Co 14
22) Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Mar 16
17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

6. To edify you, build you up.
1Co 14:4..... Jude 20

1Co 14:4
He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Jde 20
But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the holy spirit.

7. To speak to God mysteries {divine secrets}
1Co 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

8.
Makes intercession for us
Rom 8:26 &27.... Eph 6:18

Rom
26: Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom
27: And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God

Eph 6:18
18. Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

9. Your proof in the senses world that you are born again.

1Co 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the holy spirit.

10.
To have the spirit bear witness with our spirit – Similar to #9
Rom 8:16
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

11. To know you are a joint-heir with Christ.
Rom 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.



12. To strengthen you with might in the inner man
Eph 3:16
That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his spirit in th
 

MatthewG

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Fortunately, God doesn’t cancel things based on a person’s belief.

Do you think any of the things on this list were only necessary during the time of the apostles... and we have no need for them today because they are irrelevant. …so God cancelled them.


Benefits of Speaking in Tongues


The primary purpose of tongues is designed for the individual believer in his/her private prayer life. It edifies the believers

It is also a sign → when in a group meeting and the person speaking, also interprets.


1. To speak the wonderful works of God
Act 2:11
Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.


2.
To magnify God
Act 10:46
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

3.
To give thanks well
1Co 14:17
For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

4. To bring a message from God {when interpreted}
1Co 14:5& 27

5)except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

27
) If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let that one interpret.

5. Sign to the unbelievers
1Co 14:22,,,,, Mar 16:17

1Co 14
22) Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Mar 16
17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

6. To edify you, build you up.
1Co 14:4..... Jude 20

1Co 14:4
He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Jde 20
But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the holy spirit.

7. To speak to God mysteries {divine secrets}
1Co 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

8.
Makes intercession for us
Rom 8:26 &27.... Eph 6:18

Rom
26: Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom
27: And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God

Eph 6:18
18. Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

9. Your proof in the senses world that you are born again.

1Co 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the holy spirit.

10.
To have the spirit bear witness with our spirit – Similar to #9
Rom 8:16
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

11. To know you are a joint-heir with Christ.
Rom 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.



12. To strengthen you with might in the inner man
Eph 3:16
That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his spirit in th
Hello Tommy Cool,

I just do not believe the whole speaking an entire language like they did in that day is possible anymore, unless someone learns it, that is all. That is what I am talking about what ceased. I also do not believe in the laying on the hands of people and healing them.

1 Corinthians 13:8
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

Thank you for all the other scriptures, no problem there.
 

St. SteVen

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Here's my short list. @Tommy Cool

Five Different Uses of Tongues
1) Personal prayer language (worship/edification)
2) Intercessory prayer language (praying for others in the Spirit)
3) A prophetic message for a congregation (the Gift of tongues)
4) Singing in the Spirit
5) Evangelistic language (like at Pentecost)

There may be more.
We can't limit the Holy Spirit.

/
 

Tommy Cool

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Hello Tommy Cool,

I just do not believe the whole speaking an entire language like they did in that day is possible anymore, unless someone learns it, that is all. That is what I am talking about what ceased. I also do not believe in the laying on the hands of people and healing them.

1 Corinthians 13:8
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

Thank you for all the other scriptures, no problem there.

Matt I was pretty sure I knew where you stood on this ...

I will concede to your scripture 1 Cor_13:8 that tongues have ceased ....IF....you will concede that knowledge has passed away also.
Because if it has ...you wouldn't have any knowledge that tongues have ceased.... as there would be no knowledge.
 
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MatthewG

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Matt I was pretty sure I knew where you stood on this ...

I will concede to your scripture 1 Cor_13:8 that tongues have ceased ....IF....you will concede that knowledge has passed away also.
Because if it has ...you wouldn't have any knowledge that tongues have ceased.... as there would be no knowledge.
Well I look at knowledge passing when your dead. You cant pass any knowledge on when your dead. We have all are knowledge from the bible, but all peoples are dead and gone. Cant get anymore than we got now, aside from the spirit, but when we dead the knowledge to pass on ceases.

Perhaps you right though, I suppose: :p Perhaps I am just a whole batch of crazy, nonsense, Tommy Cool.


It begs to question why cant i faithfully heal my blind son (i dont have one), but why couldnt even the faithful preacher on stage even let us up there.
 

Tommy Cool

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Well I look at knowledge passing when your dead. You cant pass any knowledge on when your dead. We have all are knowledge from the bible, but all peoples are dead and gone. Cant get anymore than we got now, aside from the spirit, but when we dead the knowledge to pass on ceases.

Perhaps you right though, I suppose: :p Perhaps I am just a whole batch of crazy, nonsense, Tommy Cool.


It begs to question why cant i faithfully heal my blind son (i dont have one), but why couldnt even the faithful preacher on stage even let us up there.

I do think you are crazy Matt …crazy in love with God our Father and the Lord Jesus.

If I remember right…. a few years ago in CF message you told me you had some really bad experiences with speaking in tongues at a church you attended. I don’t remember the details ...but I am sorry that it has impacted you that way. One of my sisters went through some weirdness with a church dealing with tongues, and it took her several years before realizing the people can be idiots and totally mislead you … It took almost 15 years for her to recover from that and finally accept the truth of what God say’s in his Word about speaking in tongues. …So I still hold out hope and prayers for you because you have a sincere love and desire for truth….

You shouldn’t get me started on healing preachers …which to me is a deceptive racket with $$ and fame being the underline motivator. … There are specific principles in the Word regarding healing that are not followed by those cloaked tricksters… When it is conducted accurately from the truth, there is no hit-n-miss or fake healings…………. God always comes through…every time.
 

Bob Estey

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In a previous topic we explored why the baptized believers in Samaria hadn't received the Holy Spirit.

Why hadn't the baptized believers in Samaria received the Holy Spirit?

The typical response to the question about the initial evidence of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, is tongues.
But when I read the book of the Acts of the Apostles, I see it is not limited to tongues.
I conclude that any manifestation of the Holy Spirit could be the initial evidence.

Would you limit the initial evidence to speaking in tongues?

Here are the scriptures that led to my conclusions on this.

Acts 10:46 NIV
For they heard them speaking in tongues[a] and praising God. ...

Acts 19:6 NIV
When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them,
and they spoke in tongues[a] and prophesied.

/
I think the initial evidence would be a change in attitude - a person now wants to serve the Lord, something that wouldn't have occurred to them before. I've never met anyone who claimed to speak in tongues. Paul told us not to speak in tongues at a gathering, if no one was there to interpret.
 

St. SteVen

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I think the initial evidence would be a change in attitude - a person now wants to serve the Lord, something that wouldn't have occurred to them before. I've never met anyone who claimed to speak in tongues. Paul told us not to speak in tongues at a gathering, if no one was there to interpret.
That's one of my pet peeves.
Christians that don't speak in tongues telling everyone else how it should be done. - LOL

The type of tongue you are referring to is #3 in the list below, The gift of tongues.
Addressed to the whole congregation. Not a reference to the other kinds.

Five Different Uses of Tongues
1) Personal prayer language (worship/edification)
2) Intercessory prayer language
3) A prophetic message for a congregation
4) Singing in the Spirit
5) Evangelistic language (like at Pentecost)

There may be more uses...

/
 

St. SteVen

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Paul told us not to speak in tongues at a gathering, if no one was there to interpret.
He also said this. (among other things)

1 Corinthians 14:39 NIV
... do not forbid speaking in tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:18 NIV
... I speak in tongues more than all of you.

/
 

Bob Estey

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That's one of my pet peeves.
Christians that don't speak in tongues telling everyone else how it should be done. - LOL

The type of tongue you are referring to is #3 in the list below, The gift of tongues.
Addressed to the whole congregation. Not a reference to the other kinds.

Five Different Uses of Tongues
1) Personal prayer language (worship/edification)
2) Intercessory prayer language
3) A prophetic message for a congregation
4) Singing in the Spirit
5) Evangelistic language (like at Pentecost)

There may be more uses...

/
I think the Apostle Paul rates higher than "everyone else." If he says you shouldn't speak in tongues at a gathering, unless someone is there to interpret, then I suggest you do as he says, unless you have a good reason to disobey.
 
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Bob Estey

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He also said this. (among other things)

1 Corinthians 14:39 NIV
... do not forbid speaking in tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:18 NIV
... I speak in tongues more than all of you.

/
I think you are taking that first quote out of context, and I doubt Paul ever disobeyed himself by speaking in tongues when no one was there to interpret.
 

St. SteVen

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I think the Apostle Paul rates higher than "everyone else." If he says you shouldn't speak in tongues at a gathering, unless someone is there to interpret, then I suggest you do as he says, unless you have a good reason to disobey.
You clearly aren't understanding the passage.
What do you make of this?
Why would this tongues-speaker need an interpretation
since they were speaking to God, not the congregation?

1 Corinthians 14:2 NIV
For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to people but to God.
Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit.

I think you are taking that first quote out of context, and I doubt Paul ever disobeyed himself by speaking in tongues when no one was there to interpret.
Here Paul wants everyone to speak in tongues. But what do you say?
Are you obeying that command?

The issue isn't about good or bad; or a right or wrong.
It's about the church being edified. (built up)
Have you been built up by listening to tongues and interpretation?

1 Corinthians 14:5 NIV
I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,[a]
but I would rather have you prophesy.
The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,[b]
unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

/
 
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St. SteVen

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Here Paul wants everyone to speak in tongues. But what do you say?
Are you obeying that command?

The issue isn't about a good or bad; or a right or wrong.
It's about the church being edified. (built up)
Have you been built up by listening to tongues and interpretation?
I suppose you will claim that tongues has ended. If so, why do you say...
"Paul told us not to speak in tongues at a gathering, if no one was there to interpret." ?

Rather a moot point, right?

/ cc: @Bob Estey