What is the initial evidence of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit?

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St. SteVen

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I'm still trying to figure out how to hear the sound of the רוּחַ, even if I can't tell where it comes from, or where it is going.
Reminded me of the verse below.

I remember being outdoors one day and noticing that the wind in
the Aspen trees sounds like the roar of human applause.

Isaiah 55:12 NIV
You will go out in joy
and be led forth in peace;
the mountains and hills
will burst into song before you,
and all the trees of the field
will clap their hands
.

/
 

St. SteVen

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Since I wasn't given the gift of speaking in tongues (or interpreting them; any gifts I may have lie elsewhere)
Do you recall manifesting any of the "spiritual gifts"?

1 Corinthians 12:7-10 NIV
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.
8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom,
to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit,
9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,
10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy,
to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a]
and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[b]

/
 

Lambano

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If God asks me to do something, I assume the needed manifestation
of the Spirit will be there.
Okay; I like that, but for many (most?) of us, what God asks us to do does not require any supernatural manifestations of power, but only a willing heart. The theologians may argue that a willing heart is also a supernatural manifestation of power, but I see non-Christians who show more love than our own brothers and sisters, so...

I also know a couple of people who were rejected by, ahem, certain churches because they did not manifest the gift of Tongues. I do love brother Willis's response to the Elder of one such church: "Sir, 1 Corinthians lists many different gifts of the Spirit, of which Tongues is only one. My spiritual gift is Discernment, and right now I'm discerning that you're full of s*** and you need to repent!" It's too bad we shoot our wounded, because Willis and his wife really loved the people in that church.
 
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St. SteVen

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Do you recall manifesting any of the "spiritual gifts"?

1 Corinthians 12:7-10 NIV
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.
8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom,
to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit,
9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,
10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy,
to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a]
and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[b]

/
Defining them might help all readers.

- a message of wisdom = Godly wisdom/deep spiritual understanding
- a message of knowledge = a fact revealed through the Spirit
- faith = extraordinary faith to believe God for BIG things
- gifts of healing = note the plural "gifts", more than physical
- miraculous powers = supernatural ability
- prophecy = a message given from God for the prophet alone, for an individual, or the congregation
- tongues = speaking an unknown language, of humans, or angels
- interpretation of tongues = as stated, but can be more of a prophecy expanded from the message in tongues

/
 

St. SteVen

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Right now, a supernatural gift of healing would come in handy.
We should talk about that. Is it okay to discuss online, or should we do a PM?
Any of us can pray for healing. We don't need the gift for that. Just need to know how.

/
 
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St. SteVen

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I also know a couple of people who were rejected by, ahem, certain churches because they did not manifest the gift of Tongues. I do love brother Willis's response to the Elder of one such church: "Sir, 1 Corinthians lists many different gifts of the Spirit, of which Tongues is only one. My spiritual gift is Discernment, and right now I'm discerning that you're full of s*** and you need to repent!" It's too bad we shoot our wounded, because Willis and his wife really loved the people in that church.
I agree with Willis, obviously. Too bad things went that way.

/
 
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St. SteVen

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Any of us can pray for healing. We don't need the gift for that. Just need to know how.
One of the biggest problems with manifestations of the Spirit is that the Bible says so little about it.
If the Corinthian church had not been "swinging from the chandeliers" we wouldn't have hardly anything.

/
 
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Lambano

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We should talk about that. Is it okay to discuss online, or should we do a PM?
Any of us can pray for healing. We don't need the gift for that. Just need to know how.

/
The details are available in the Prayer Forum. You're welcome to add your own prayers if you are so moved. That's all I can say about it in an open forum.
 
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rwb

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In a previous topic we explored why the baptized believers in Samaria hadn't received the Holy Spirit.

Why hadn't the baptized believers in Samaria received the Holy Spirit?

The typical response to the question about the initial evidence of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, is tongues.
But when I read the book of the Acts of the Apostles, I see it is not limited to tongues.
I conclude that any manifestation of the Holy Spirit could be the initial evidence.

Would you limit the initial evidence to speaking in tongues?

Here are the scriptures that led to my conclusions on this.

Acts 10:46 NIV
For they heard them speaking in tongues[a] and praising God. ...

Acts 19:6 NIV
When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them,
and they spoke in tongues[a] and prophesied.

/

You seem to be talking specifically about the supernatural miracle of speaking in unknown tongues and prophesy to authenticate both the message about Christ (Gospel) and the messenger? Are you asking if the signs given to believers in the beginning are still necessary proof for being eternally saved?
 

rwb

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That's interesting. Great post, thanks.

How could believers today activate the indwelling Spirit to "receive"? (lambanō)

/

Who was to receive this power from on high? Acts 1:6-11
 

St. SteVen

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You seem to be talking specifically about the supernatural miracle of speaking in unknown tongues and prophesy to authenticate both the message about Christ (Gospel) and the messenger? Are you asking if the signs given to believers in the beginning are still necessary proof for being eternally saved?
You are taking the Cessationist position, that the "miracle" gifts were sign gifts for the time of the Apostles only.
Or at least you asking the questions from their perspective.

I am taking the Continuationist position.
But not claiming the manifestations are "necessary proof for being eternally saved".

Who was to receive this power from on high? Acts 1:6-11
Don't stop there.

Acts 2:17-21 NIV
“‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’

Acts 2:39 NIV
The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—
for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

/
 

MatthewG

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Have the last days come and gone? :Broadly:
The last days of our very individual lives, they are still coming around, and then the final day, one will be gone from this earth.
 

rwb

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You are taking the Cessationist position, that the "miracle" gifts were sign gifts for the time of the Apostles only.
Or at least you asking the questions from their perspective.

I am taking the Continuationist position.
But not claiming the manifestations are "necessary proof for being eternally saved".

It's not that I would call it a view for cessation of the supernatural sign gifts, but a fulfillment view. According to Peter speaking in other tongues was foretold by the Prophet Joel. Saying "in the last days" all these things Peter writes would be fulfilled. Have all the things written by Peter quoting the prophesy of Joel come fully to pass on the day of Pentecost, the day that began "these last days"? No, if all that was foretold was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost, then Joel would not have said "in these last day(s). These last days only began at Pentecost, with the outpouring of the Spirit, and signs and wonders done by the apostles. (Acts 2:43 & 5:12)

The first sign given was outpouring of the Holy Spirit on all flesh. I would hope that you agree 'all' does not mean without exception, but without distinction. Not only on the Jews, but on mankind from every nation of the world. That day there were three thousand men from every nation under heaven who were added to the Church by faith (they believed the Gospel). They repented and believed in the name of Jesus Christ, and were baptized, and according to Peter they received the gift of the Holy Spirit. They did NOT speak in other tongues they had only to believe and be baptized to be added to those who were saved.

Acts 2:38-41 (KJV) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

The three thousand continued in fellowship and breaking of bread and prayers in the apostles doctrine. But the many signs and wonders were done by the apostles. There isn't even evidence that these three thousand souls had the ability to speak in other tongues, even though it is clear they were baptized and believed and received the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:42-47 (KJV) And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

There should be no doubt that the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on all flesh began on the day of Pentecost. But the gift of the Holy Spirit did not end on that day. The Holy Spirit coming to mankind clearly came to pass at Pentecost, and the Spirit continues to be in whosoever believes the Gospel and repents throughout these last days. Now the Holy Spirit comes into man without any outward signs or miracles. Believers no longer need a physical manifestation of His presence in us to know and believe that we have gone from being spiritually dead in trespasses and sins to being alive in Christ. And that we have entered the spiritual Kingdom of God.

The next promise of what shall come to pass in these "last days" is "your sons and your daughters shall prophesy" "And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy". This too was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost, when the apostles began to speak with other tongues under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. That's what prophesy is. The ability to foretell events and speak the things of God through His Spirit.

What about visions and dreams? Is there Biblical proof to support this sign too is taking place since the day of Pentecost in "these last days"? Acts 9:10 records that Ananias was given a vision. And Peter and Cornelius in Acts 10 were given a vision. And of course there is Paul, and Stephen saw a vision of heaven (Acts 7:56-60).

All that was spoken by Peter quoting the Prophet Joel has come to pass, is coming to pass and shall be during these last days the prophet foretells would come after the advent of the Messiah coming to earth, returning to heaven and sending His Spirit. The signs and miracles in the beginning had to be physically shown to authenticate the message and the messengers. Since we have the complete Word of God and His Spirit to guide us unto all truths since Pentecost, we no longer need a physical manifestation of His supernatural power. The power of the Spirit in us has not been done away. But that power is now made known spiritually and not physically.

The other tongues believers now speak is called the Gospel of Christ. Unknown language to the world before He came. Because the Word of God is the power of life for all who believe. That's the greatest sign gift, the miracle of man, who was spiritually dead in trespasses and sins, being spiritually taken from the power of our flesh, the world and Satan, darkness and death, from eternal damnation to eternal life and light through Christ. No, the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit in believers is still alive and well! He supernaturally works through His disciples as they go forth telling the wonderful supernatural works of God, foretelling of Christ coming again for judgment and the second death to all who reject Him through unbelief.
 
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St. SteVen

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The three thousand continued in fellowship and breaking of bread and prayers in the apostles doctrine. But the many signs and wonders were done by the apostles. There isn't even evidence that these three thousand souls had the ability to speak in other tongues, even though it is clear they were baptized and believed and received the Holy Spirit.
Have you seen this topic?


The other tongues believers now speak is called the Gospel of Christ.
What is your view on 1 Corinthians chapters 12 and 14?
Where the Apostle instructs believers about tongues.

/
 

Peterlag

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In a previous topic we explored why the baptized believers in Samaria hadn't received the Holy Spirit.

Why hadn't the baptized believers in Samaria received the Holy Spirit?

The typical response to the question about the initial evidence of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, is tongues.
But when I read the book of the Acts of the Apostles, I see it is not limited to tongues.
I conclude that any manifestation of the Holy Spirit could be the initial evidence.

Would you limit the initial evidence to speaking in tongues?

Here are the scriptures that led to my conclusions on this.

Acts 10:46 NIV
For they heard them speaking in tongues[a] and praising God. ...

Acts 19:6 NIV
When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them,
and they spoke in tongues[a] and prophesied.

/

Could this have something to do with Acts 18? There was a guy who only knew water baptism and was not he the guy who shared the Scriptures with the group of folks you're talking about who believed, but had no spirit. Perhaps it was Apollos not knowing the correct baptism for the Christians that started in Acts chapter two.

Acts 18:25
This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
 

St. SteVen

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Could this have something to do with Acts 18? There was a guy who only knew water baptism and was not he the guy who shared the Scriptures with the group of folks you're talking about who believed, but had no spirit. Perhaps it was Apollos not knowing the correct baptism for the Christians that started in Acts chapter two.

Acts 18:25
This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
Interesting thought.
But no, this was the ministry of Philip.
Although, I suppose you could bring the same charge against him.
He was the one who baptized the Ethiopian eunuch.
Or add Samaria to your list of items that don't fit your premise?

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