What is the initial evidence of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit?

[Ritajanice]

God knows my heart and maybe he is using me to talk to you to get you to see the truth in the part of his word you are not seeing correctly just maybe I do have the spirit and it is using me to open your eyes just maybe

That’s just your opinion.

How many times have I told you ....I’m Born Again.....by the Living word of God......

Maybe you have the Spirit?...you say?

You must be Born Again.....NOT maybe I have the Spirit, where is that in scripture?

You have voiced just your opinion.

Water doesn’t birth anyone in the Spirit.....that’s a supernatural event that only God can do, via Holy Spirit.....breathtakingly mind blowing....for me it was!!

 

[Godslittleservant]

That’s just your opinion.

How many times have I told you ....I’m Born Again.....by the Living word of God......

Maybe you have the Spirit?...you say?

You must be Born Again.....NOT maybe I have the Spirit, where is that in scripture?

You have voiced just your opinion.

Water doesn’t birth anyone in the Spirit.....that’s a supernatural event that only God can do, via Holy Spirit.....breathtakingly mind blowing....for me it was!!

I said maybe because you insist on insinuating that You have the spirit and I don't but you also insist that I am wrong in my view even though it has scriptural backing and say I have voiced my opinion and it is just that my opinion even though I have given the scripture that you reject and have even asked me not to use scripture where I am telling you that yours is just your opinion and is contradicting scripture that you want no part of.

Yes I am born again and do have the indwelling spirit which is telling me to try to get you to accept the scriptures and not rely on your own understanding but what the truth in Gods word is telling you.

 

[Ritajanice]

I said maybe because you insist on insinuating that You have the spirit and I don't but you also insist that I am wrong in my view even though it has scriptural backing and say I have voiced my opinion and it is just that my opinion even though I have given the scripture that you reject and have even asked me not to use scripture where I am telling you that yours is just your opinion and is contradicting scripture that you want no part of.

Yes I am born again and do have the indwelling spirit which is telling me to try to get you to accept the scriptures and not rely on your own understanding but what the truth in Gods word is telling you.

I have NOT insinuated you don’t have the Spirit....you did that yourself....now I see you have moved the goalposts again.

You have suddenly become Born Again have you...a few minutes ago you said something else on another post.

I really don’t care what you say.....I also posted scripture regarding my rebirth...I know 100% I am Born Again..I don’t have to prove it to anyone.

You said @Godslittleservant ..... just maybe I do have the spirit...........that is by your own admission ..not mine,

You also told me on another thread..that I wasn’t born again, that it was just my opinion.

I don’t care what you think.....I only care what God’s Living word says....you can think and accuse as much as you like....only God’s word penetrate my heart/ spirit.

Ephesians 6:10-18

New International Version

​

The Armor of God​

10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities,against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people

 

[FaithWillDo]

Again, there's no bride for the Christian. The bride was a figure of speech about Israel. Christians are in the body of Christ. There's no ceremonial events. We get born again by...

Romans 10:9-10
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Dear Peterlag,
There is NO literal marriage to Christ. The term "Bride" is a spiritual symbol (a "spirit" word, John 6:63). When an Elect believer becomes the Bride of Christ, it means that they have been "born again" and have received the baptism of the Spirit.

If the church is not the Bride, then why does Paul says this?

2Cor 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ (when Christ returns for the marriage ceremony).

The Corinthian church (which is made up of Gentiles) had only received the Early Rain of the Spirit and had been baptized in water. They were espoused (engaged) to Christ and were waiting for Him to return for the marriage ceremony. It is at the marriage ceremony when Christ gives an Elect believer the Latter Rain of the Spirit (baptism of the Spirit) and when they become the Bride of Christ. It is not a literal marriage ceremony.

The "Marriage of the Lamb" is a spiritual symbol which carries a meaning which is different than what man's wisdom teaches.

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the Marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife (the Elect) hath made herself ready.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT, and they are life.

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Do you understand that Christ teaches us in "another language"?

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Christ's spiritual language uses types, symbols and parables to teach us His truth. He teaches in this language to keep Himself concealed from the world. When Christ gives an Elect believer the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, He heals their spiritual blindness and reveals Himself to the person. It is only then that the Word of God will open up to the person's understanding. This is what the symbol "eyes that can see" is referencing.

Joe

 

[Peterlag]

Dear Peterlag,
There is NO literal marriage to Christ. The term "Bride" is a spiritual symbol (a "spirit" word, John 6:63). When an Elect believer becomes the Bride of Christ, it means that they have been "born again" and have received the baptism of the Spirit.

If the church is not the Bride, then why does Paul says this?

2Cor 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ (when Christ returns for the marriage ceremony).

The Corinthian church (which is made up of Gentiles) had only received the Early Rain of the Spirit and had been baptized in water. They were espoused (engaged) to Christ and were waiting for Him to return for the marriage ceremony. It is at the marriage ceremony when Christ gives an Elect believer the Latter Rain of the Spirit (baptism of the Spirit) and when they become the Bride of Christ. It is not a literal marriage ceremony.

The "Marriage of the Lamb" is a spiritual symbol which carries a meaning which is different than what man's wisdom teaches.

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the Marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife (the Elect) hath made herself ready.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT, and they are life.

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Do you understand that Christ teaches us in "another language"?

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Christ's spiritual language uses types, symbols and parables to teach us His truth. He teaches in this language to keep Himself concealed from the world. When Christ gives an Elect believer the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, He heals their spiritual blindness and reveals Himself to the person. It is only then that the Word of God will open up to the person's understanding. This is what the symbol "eyes that can see" is referencing.

Joe

The Christian Church is being compared to a virgin bride by a figure of speech. The Church is not literally a virgin bride, but the things expected of a virgin bride such as spiritual chastity, purity, and devotion, all apply to the Church.

 

[FaithWillDo]

The Christian Church is being compared to a virgin bride by a figure of speech. The Church is not literally a virgin bride, but the things expected of a virgin bride such as spiritual chastity, purity, and devotion, all apply to the Church.

Dear Peterlag,
As I said, Christ teaches us by types, symbols and parables. The church is not literally a virgin bride as this world understands that concept. But in Christ's spiritual language, the church is the virgin Bride of Christ.

The Nation of Israel has been cast into outer darkness (total spiritual blindness) and will not accept Christ as their Lord and Savior until the end of the final age. They will NOT receive the blessings that the church (the Elect) will receive.

The marriage analogy is just one of the ways Christ teaches His truth in scripture and that concept applies only to the church.

Joe

 

[Peterlag]

Dear Peterlag,
As I said, Christ teaches us by types, symbols and parables. The church is not literally a virgin bride as this world understands that concept. But in Christ's spiritual language, the church is the virgin Bride of Christ.

The Nation of Israel has been cast into outer darkness (total spiritual blindness) and will not accept Christ as their Lord and Savior until the end of the final age. They will NOT receive the blessings that the church (the Elect) will receive.

The marriage analogy is just one of the ways Christ teaches His truth in scripture and that concept applies only to the church.

Joe

We don't agree. I don't see the church as a bride. There's no teaching on this in the New Testament that started in Acts chapter two. You can find a verse or two in this New Testament where Paul speaks with such a figure of speech, but the teaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ is all about the body of Christ. The bride is all in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and that is not the "New Testament" since God did not put a paper in the Bible between Malachi and Matthew that says New Testament. Men did that... probably Catholics.

 

[FaithWillDo]

We don't agree. I don't see the church as a bride. There's no teaching on this in the New Testament that started in Acts chapter two. You can find a verse or two in this New Testament where Paul speaks with such a figure of speech, but the teaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ is all about the body of Christ. The bride is all in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and that is not the "New Testament" since God did not put a paper in the Bible between Malachi and Matthew that says New Testament. Men did that... probably Catholics.

Dear Peterlag,
The four Gospels contain mostly teachings concerning the New Covenant and the pathway the Elect will travel to salvation under that covenant. That pathway starts when Christ gives a person the Early Rain of the Spirit. But since Christ does not heal the person's spiritual blindness at that time, they are quickly deceived by Satan and become a part of the apostate church (all 2,000 different denominations/sects that are in the world). They remain in this lost, fallen away spiritual condition until they die UNLESS they are one of the Elect. In which case, Christ will "come again" to them and pour out the Latter Rain upon them. With the Latter Rain, they are "born again" and their spiritual blindness is healed. This is when they "see" the Abomination of Desolation that had occurred within God's temple (themselves). When they see the A of D, judgment will fall on them and destroy who they became under Satan's spiritual influence (a man of sin). This is the pathway that Paul's conversion "typed" which all the Elect must travel to salvation. Unless Christ comes to a person a second time before they die, they will not be His Bride/heir/First Fruit.

The Parable of the Ten Virgins is also teaching this pathway to salvation the Elect will travel. It is not a teaching that applies to the Nation of Israel. It applies only to the church.

In the parable, a "virgin" is a person who has received the Early Rain of the Spirit and has become "espoused" to Christ. This is when a person enters the church. However, a short time later, all ten virgins will fall away from faith and spiritually die under Satan's influence (spirit of anti-Christ) The parable presents this truth by showing that all ten virgins are sleeping (spiritual death) at night (time of spiritual blindness). This is the time when all believers are in the apostate church. When Christ returns, only the Elect (the wise virgins) have the extra oil (Latter Rain) to become a chaste virgin again. The foolish virgins were simply not chosen from the foundation of the world for salvation in this present age. And because they were not, they were not given the extra oil (anointing of the Baptism of the Spirit/Latter Rain) they needed. The foolish virgins had no choice but to remain carnally minded/spiritually blind and lost until they died. Only the Baptism of the Spirit can make a fallen away believer faithful again. As Paul said, a fallen away believer cannot be renewed by repentance alone:

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and age-enduring judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit. 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come 6 if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance: seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7 For the earth (carnal mankind) which drinketh in the rain (the Early Rain) that cometh oft upon it (many are called out), and bringeth forth herbs (spiritual fruit) meet for them (the Elect) by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God (the Latter Rain): 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected (the foolish virgins, Early Rain only), and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Joe

 

[Peterlag]

Dear Peterlag,
The four Gospels contain mostly teachings concerning the New Covenant and the pathway the Elect will travel to salvation under that covenant. That pathway starts when Christ gives a person the Early Rain of the Spirit. But since Christ does not heal the person's spiritual blindness at that time, they are quickly deceived by Satan and become a part of the apostate church (all 2,000 different denominations/sects that are in the world). They remain in this lost, fallen away spiritual condition until they die UNLESS they are one of the Elect. In which case, Christ will "come again" to them and pour out the Latter Rain upon them. With the Latter Rain, they are "born again" and their spiritual blindness is healed. This is when they "see" the Abomination of Desolation that had occurred within God's temple (themselves). When they see the A of D, judgment will fall on them and destroy who they became under Satan's spiritual influence (a man of sin). This is the pathway that Paul's conversion "typed" which all the Elect must travel to salvation. Unless Christ comes to a person a second time before they die, they will not be His Bride/heir/First Fruit.

The Parable of the Ten Virgins is also teaching this pathway to salvation the Elect will travel. It is not a teaching that applies to the Nation of Israel. It applies only to the church.

In the parable, a "virgin" is a person who has received the Early Rain of the Spirit and has become "espoused" to Christ. This is when a person enters the church. However, a short time later, all ten virgins will fall away from faith and spiritually die under Satan's influence (spirit of anti-Christ) The parable presents this truth by showing that all ten virgins are sleeping (spiritual death) at night (time of spiritual blindness). This is the time when all believers are in the apostate church. When Christ returns, only the Elect (the wise virgins) have the extra oil (Latter Rain) to become a chaste virgin again. The foolish virgins were simply not chosen from the foundation of the world for salvation in this present age. And because they were not, they were not given the extra oil (anointing of the Baptism of the Spirit/Latter Rain) they needed. The foolish virgins had no choice but to remain carnally minded/spiritually blind and lost until they died. Only the Baptism of the Spirit can make a fallen away believer faithful again. As Paul said, a fallen away believer cannot be renewed by repentance alone:

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and age-enduring judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit. 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come 6 if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance: seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7 For the earth (carnal mankind) which drinketh in the rain (the Early Rain) that cometh oft upon it (many are called out), and bringeth forth herbs (spiritual fruit) meet for them (the Elect) by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God (the Latter Rain): 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected (the foolish virgins, Early Rain only), and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Joe

The four Gospels do not contain the teachings concerning the New Covenant. That gospel is taught in the Epistles.

 

[FaithWillDo]

The four Gospels do not contain the teachings concerning the New Covenant. That gospel is taught in the Epistles.

Dear Peterlag,
Christ most certainly taught the New Covenant in the Gospels. Until you can "see" that truth, there is nothing I can say that can possibly help your overall understanding of Christ. This is a good time to end our discussion.
Joe

 

[Peterlag]

Dear Peterlag,
Christ most certainly taught the New Covenant in the Gospels. Until you can "see" that truth, there is nothing I can say that can possibly help your overall understanding of Christ. This is a good time to end our discussion.
Joe

I feel the same way. Take Care

 

[Wick Stick]

Examples of what people do does not establishment doctrine. There's no teaching on this water anywhere in the New Testament. And again, only by the habit of tradition, and only for a short period of time, a small handful of people were baptized with water into the New Testament, but never again afterwards. The teachings of the gospel of Jesus Christ is taught all throughout the New Testament starting in the book of Romans. Water is never taught anywhere. Everybody must have said no to Peter in verse 47 because nobody mentions water in verse 48.

You're moving the goalposts. You claimed that in this chapter, they weren't baptized with water. I showed that they were, now you're changing the question to something else.

 

[Peterlag]

You're moving the goalposts. You claimed that in this chapter, they weren't baptized with water. I showed that they were, now you're changing the question to something else.

I'm not changing or moving a goal posts. I have stated from the beginning that from the habit of tradition, and only for a short period of time, a small handful of people were baptized with water into the New Testament, but never again afterwards. Now I'm adding there's no doctrine on this. No teaching about water anywhere in the New Testament that started once the new birth was given. Nothing. Not one verse on water. From Romans forward... nothing.

 

[Godslittleservant]

I'm not changing or moving a goal posts. I have stated from the beginning that from the habit of tradition, and only for a short period of time, a small handful of people were baptized with water into the New Testament, but never again afterwards. Now I'm adding there's no doctrine on this. No teaching about water anywhere in the New Testament that started once the new birth was given. Nothing. Not one verse on water. From Romans forward... nothing.

There are many verses that talk about when they were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ in the water it just does say water but it had already happened so it does not say how you really need to learn to read. Romans 6:3 is talking about when they were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Galatians 3:27, and Colossians 2:11-13 are talking about when you were baptized with the baptism of Acts 2:38

It started at Acts 2 where we see the conversion stories and in the epistles we read of when they submitted they are not being saved but have been saved the epistles were letters to the saved not preaching the gospel to save.

 

[Wick Stick]

I'm not changing or moving a goal posts. I have stated from the beginning that from the habit of tradition, and only for a short period of time, a small handful of people were baptized with water into the New Testament, but never again afterwards. Now I'm adding there's no doctrine on this. No teaching about water anywhere in the New Testament that started once the new birth was given. Nothing. Not one verse on water. From Romans forward... nothing.

You might want to check claims like that before you repeat them.

Eph 5:25-26 Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word.

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

1Pe 3:20-21 ...The longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

The Didache, Chapter 7:​

And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19 in living water. But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you can not in cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whatever others can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.​

Justin Martyr's First Apology:
I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water.

Not only are there a handful of verses from Peter and Paul after Acts, but the early writings of the church attest to water baptism as well. Above, Justin Martyr wrote in the 2nd century AD, and the Didache is a collection of teachings from the 2nd - 4th centuries. The practice of baptism has been in continual use from Old Testament times up til the present. It may not always be well-understood, but it has continued unabated...

 

[St. SteVen]

New topic.

Is the Logos meaningful, or meaningless? - Depends on your view of Logos.

I want to discuss the Logos as what it means before the Logos became flesh. (and dwelt among us) In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God. (John 1:1) This tells three things about the Logos. 1) The Logos was from the beginning. 2) The Logos was with...

www.christianityboard.com

/

 

[Peterlag]

You might want to check claims like that before you repeat them.






Not only are there a handful of verses from Peter and Paul after Acts, but the early writings of the church attest to water baptism as well. Above, Justin Martyr wrote in the 2nd century AD, and the Didache is a collection of teachings from the 2nd - 4th centuries. The practice of baptism has been in continual use from Old Testament times up til the present. It may not always be well-understood, but it has continued unabated...

I will do Ephesians 5:26...
“washing of water.” The Greek noun “washing” is loutron (λουτρόν), and it only occurs twice in the New Testament, here in Ephesians 5:26 and in Titus 3:5. In this context, it refers to bathing or taking a bath, which is why some English versions say “bath” or “bathing” instead of “washing” ( CEB; NAB; NOY; Rotherham; YLT). The more common use of loutron in Greek literature was to refer to the place a bath is taken, but here and in Titus loutron refers to the bath itself. Some have tried to make loutron refer to immersion in water, but that is forcing too much meaning into the word. One does not need to immerse oneself to bathe, and besides that, there is good evidence that at least some, if not most, Christian baptism was done by pouring water on the person, not immersing them. This is the way Christians are “baptized” in holy spirit; it is “poured out” onto the believer (Joel 2:28; Acts 2:33).https://www.revisedenglishversion.com/Ephesians/chapter5/SIT

It is worth pointing out that Paul uses loutron, bathing, in Ephesians 5:26 and Titus 3:5, but if he meant water baptism it seems he would have used the Greek word baptismos (“baptism”) or a related “baptism” word like he did when he spoke of being “baptized” in the spirit, and that he would not have used loutron, a word that refers to a bath or bathing place.

The evidence suggests that in the context of Ephesians 5:26, “bathing in water” is metaphorical and refers to the cleansing wash that the person gets the moment they are born again. That is the point of the phrase “with the word.” It is the Word of God, i.e., what it says about Jesus and what the person believes and confesses that results in the person being born again and thus receiving everlasting life. Romans 10:9 gives clear and simple instruction about how to be saved, and it does not mention water baptism, and Romans 3:22, 26, 28, 30; 4:13, 24; 5:1; Galatians 2:26; 3:8 and 3:24. All mention being saved by “trust in Jesus” (“faith in Jesus”), and don’t say a thing about adding water baptism to one’s trust in order to be saved. Also, Ephesians 1:13 outlines the process of salvation: a person hears the word of truth, believes it, and then is sealed with holy spirit until the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30). Added to that evidence is the fact that in the previous chapter Ephesians 4:5 mentions there being “one baptism” and that refers to baptism in spirit and not baptism in water.https://www.revisedenglishversion.com/Eph/4/5

There is nothing in the New Testament that indicates a person is not fully saved when they confess and believe. Although it is true that most people in the New Testament times were water baptized—that was the common custom that came down from John and even Jesus himself—nevertheless by necessity many times a person’s water baptism would have occurred hours or perhaps even days after the person confessed and believed. There is no verse of Scripture that indicates a person who confesses and believes in Jesus is “almost saved” until they are water baptized and then they are saved. Also, it should be abundantly clear from history that a person can be water baptized and not actually be born again. Christian churches have many people who went through the ritual of baptism but were never actually born again because they never really believed and confessed that Jesus was their risen lord.

The “baptism” that accompanies true salvation is the baptism in holy spirit. John the Baptist spoke about it (Matthew 3:16; Mark 1:8); Jesus taught about it (ACTS 1:5); Peter remembered it being taught in Acts 11:16 where it says "John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the holy ghost." And Paul recognized that every genuine born-again believer had been baptized in the spirit into “one body” which is the Body of Christ: “For we were all baptized in one spirit into one body” (1 Corinthians 12:13). It was in speaking about being “baptized in one spirit” that Paul actually used the Greek verb baptizō (“baptize”) and it is the baptism in holy spirit, which occurs the instant a person confesses and believes in Christ, that makes the person holy and cleanses them from sin.

 

[Peterlag]

There are many verses that talk about when they were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ in the water it just does say water but it had already happened so it does not say how you really need to learn to read. Romans 6:3 is talking about when they were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Galatians 3:27, and Colossians 2:11-13 are talking about when you were baptized with the baptism of Acts 2:38

It started at Acts 2 where we see the conversion stories and in the epistles we read of when they submitted they are not being saved but have been saved the epistles were letters to the saved not preaching the gospel to save.

The “baptism” that accompanies true salvation is the baptism in holy spirit. John the Baptist spoke about it (Matthew 3:16; Mark 1:8); Jesus taught about it (ACTS 1:5); Peter remembered it being taught in Acts 11:16 where it says "John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the holy ghost." And Paul recognized that every genuine born-again believer had been baptized in the spirit into “one body” which is the Body of Christ: “For we were all baptized in one spirit into one body” (1 Corinthians 12:13). It was in speaking about being “baptized in one spirit” that Paul actually used the Greek verb baptizō (“baptize”) and it is the baptism in holy spirit, which occurs the instant a person confesses and believes in Christ, that makes the person holy and cleanses them from sin.

 

[Wick Stick]

I will do Ephesians 5:26...
“washing of water.” The Greek noun “washing” is loutron (λουτρόν), and it only occurs twice in the New Testament, here in Ephesians 5:26 and in Titus 3:5. In this context, it refers to bathing or taking a bath, which is why some English versions say “bath” or “bathing” instead of “washing” ( CEB; NAB; NOY; Rotherham; YLT). The more common use of loutron in Greek literature was to refer to the place a bath is taken, but here and in Titus loutron refers to the bath itself. Some have tried to make loutron refer to immersion in water, but that is forcing too much meaning into the word. One does not need to immerse oneself to bathe, and besides that, there is good evidence that at least some, if not most, Christian baptism was done by pouring water on the person, not immersing them. This is the way Christians are “baptized” in holy spirit; it is “poured out” onto the believer (Joel 2:28; Acts 2:33).Ephesians 5, REV Bible and Commentary

It is worth pointing out that Paul uses loutron, bathing, in Ephesians 5:26 and Titus 3:5, but if he meant water baptism it seems he would have used the Greek word baptismos (“baptism”) or a related “baptism” word like he did when he spoke of being “baptized” in the spirit, and that he would not have used loutron, a word that refers to a bath or bathing place.

The evidence suggests that in the context of Ephesians 5:26, “bathing in water” is metaphorical and refers to the cleansing wash that the person gets the moment they are born again. That is the point of the phrase “with the word.” It is the Word of God, i.e., what it says about Jesus and what the person believes and confesses that results in the person being born again and thus receiving everlasting life. Romans 10:9 gives clear and simple instruction about how to be saved, and it does not mention water baptism, and Romans 3:22, 26, 28, 30; 4:13, 24; 5:1; Galatians 2:26; 3:8 and 3:24. All mention being saved by “trust in Jesus” (“faith in Jesus”), and don’t say a thing about adding water baptism to one’s trust in order to be saved. Also, Ephesians 1:13 outlines the process of salvation: a person hears the word of truth, believes it, and then is sealed with holy spirit until the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30). Added to that evidence is the fact that in the previous chapter Ephesians 4:5 mentions there being “one baptism” and that refers to baptism in spirit and not baptism in water.Ephesians 4:5, REV Bible and Commentary

You have expended a great deal of effort to explain away a fifth of the examples I provided.

There is nothing in the New Testament that indicates a person is not fully saved when they confess and believe. Although it is true that most people in the New Testament times were water baptized—that was the common custom that came down from John and even Jesus himself—nevertheless by necessity many times a person’s water baptism would have occurred hours or perhaps even days after the person confessed and believed. There is no verse of Scripture that indicates a person who confesses and believes in Jesus is “almost saved” until they are water baptized and then they are saved. Also, it should be abundantly clear from history that a person can be water baptized and not actually be born again. Christian churches have many people who went through the ritual of baptism but were never actually born again because they never really believed and confessed that Jesus was their risen lord.

The “baptism” that accompanies true salvation is the baptism in holy spirit. John the Baptist spoke about it (Matthew 3:16; Mark 1:8); Jesus taught about it (ACTS 1:5); Peter remembered it being taught in Acts 11:16 where it says "John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the holy ghost." And Paul recognized that every genuine born-again believer had been baptized in the spirit into “one body” which is the Body of Christ: “For we were all baptized in one spirit into one body” (1 Corinthians 12:13). It was in speaking about being “baptized in one spirit” that Paul actually used the Greek verb baptizō (“baptize”) and it is the baptism in holy spirit, which occurs the instant a person confesses and believes in Christ, that makes the person holy and cleanses them from sin.

It would seem that your main quarrel is with the idea that the water is somehow regenerative. I can agree with you on that. Like I said earlier, the water is not salvic, it's a symbol.

That symbol is meant for the church, to show them that the baptizee has been adopted. They are publicly accepted as "one of us." Nobody coming afterwards can gainsay their membership - it's now public. That's how it happened for Cornelius, and that is how it continues.

That said, your insistence that the church somehow DIDN'T practice water baptism does harm to your argument. They clearly did baptize in water. If not, we wouldn't have instructions from the 2nd century on how to do it, or describing it.

 

[Peterlag]

You have expended a great deal of effort to explain away a fifth of the examples I provided.

It would seem that your main quarrel is with the idea that the water is somehow regenerative. I can agree with you on that. Like I said earlier, the water is not salvic, it's a symbol.

That symbol is meant for the church, to show them that the baptizee has been adopted. They are publicly accepted as "one of us." Nobody coming afterwards can gainsay their membership - it's now public. That's how it happened for Cornelius, and that is how it continues.

That said, your insistence that the church somehow DIDN'T practice water baptism does harm to your argument. They clearly did baptize in water. If not, we wouldn't have instructions from the 2nd century on how to do it, or describing it.

Your historians and instructions from the 2nd century are all about the Catholics and not the Church of God. And if you're Catholic. Then I will have to end this conversation.