What is the initial evidence of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit?
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Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
Whatever anyone was saying about what went on in the 2nd century were not talking about the Christian doctrine. They were talking about the Catholic doctrine and practices.
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
You need to study history. Justin was born in Samaria at a time before any Pope of Rome had come to political power.
Because I do not agree with what they believe. Nor do I understand it. Thus, I would not know where to begin to try to unravel their religious concepts.
They had no pope in power but they had Bishops. Here I will give you one...
The concept of the original sin was first alluded to in the second century by Irenaeus, (Bishop of Lyon) who was working for the Catholics and not for the apostle Paul.
Perhaps in your declared ignorance, you are wrong about them. ???
Sometimes our task is to understand the other believer rather than prove them wrong.
/
In 3 of the 4 descriptions in Acts of receiving the Spirit, the initial evidence includes speaking in tongues. In the 4th case (Samaria) speaking tongues is not mentioned, but ecstatic speech seems implied by the fact that Simon the Magician is so impressed by this manifestation of the Spirit that he offers Peter and John money to give him this ability to convey the Spirit. So speaking in tongues does initially seem to qualify as the expected initial evidence of Spirit baptism.
Why is this so? Because most of the first Gentile converts were proselytes and god-fearers who attended local synagogues and ancient synagogue rabbis taught that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of prophecy, so that ecstatic speech in the form of prophesying or speaking in tongues would be expected as initial evidence of the reception of the Holy Spirit. Indeed, speaking in foreign tongues is considered a type of ecstatic prophesying in Acts 2:16-17 in fulfillment of Joel 2:28.
So does this mean that Pentecostals are correct in insisting on tongues as the definitive sign of Spirit baptism? I think not. Evangelicals overlook the fact that Luke's doctrine of the Spirit is more rabbinic than Pauline in the sense that Luke shows no awareness of the role of the Spirit in regeneration. Paul's development of the doctrine of the Spirit beyond prophesying opens the door for the initial experience of the Spirit to include other manifestations besides tongues.
in the first 3 descriptio
ev
,
Why is this so? Because most of the first Gentile converts were proselytes and god-fearers who attended local synagogues and ancient synagogue rabbis taught that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of prophecy, so that ecstatic speech in the form of prophesying or speaking in tongues would be expected as initial evidence of the reception of the Holy Spirit. Indeed, speaking in foreign tongues is considered a type of ecstatic prophesying in Acts 2:16-17 in fulfillment of Joel 2:28.
So does this mean that Pentecostals are correct in insisting on tongues as the definitive sign of Spirit baptism? I think not. Evangelicals overlook the fact that Luke's doctrine of the Spirit is more rabbinic than Pauline in the sense that Luke shows no awareness of the role of the Spirit in regeneration. Paul's development of the doctrine of the Spirit beyond prophesying opens the door for the initial experience of the Spirit to include other manifestations besides tongues.
in the first 3 descriptio
ev
,
Have you noticed I have never been nasty to you or attacked you personally? I have never told you or implied that you were ignorant or that you should learn how to read the Bible better or that you should read before speaking or any of the other negative insulting ways you have treated me. Wise men say that you lost the debate when you can no longer discuss the issues but find yourself attacking the other guy personally.
Godslittleservant
Active Member
What is the spirit baptism?? it is that of Acts 2:38.
Why? Because it is the one that John said Jesus would baptize with. It is the one that is for every person on earth. It is the one that remits sin and gives the indwelling spirit. It is the one of Romans 6:3ff It is the one that Jesus authorized. It is the one that all the conversions in Acts tells about.
Well then what about the power of witness that gives signs as tongues and such? Only twice and no other time do we read of it supernaturally coming upon anyone and that was Acts 2 on the Apostles only then on the gentiles in Acts 10 and it was for a sign to the unbelievers that God is using those for a purpose. The Apostles to spread the gospel and the gentiles to prove to the Jews that it is time to bring in the gentiles.
Any other time the gift was transferred it had to be done by the laying on of the Apostles hands. it was not for all but for those that were chosen as shepherds in the new church plants to grow the church in the Apostles absences. It is not was not and will not be for everyone but the indwelling given only through the baptism in Christ name is for every one that calls upon the Lord.
Why? Because it is the one that John said Jesus would baptize with. It is the one that is for every person on earth. It is the one that remits sin and gives the indwelling spirit. It is the one of Romans 6:3ff It is the one that Jesus authorized. It is the one that all the conversions in Acts tells about.
Well then what about the power of witness that gives signs as tongues and such? Only twice and no other time do we read of it supernaturally coming upon anyone and that was Acts 2 on the Apostles only then on the gentiles in Acts 10 and it was for a sign to the unbelievers that God is using those for a purpose. The Apostles to spread the gospel and the gentiles to prove to the Jews that it is time to bring in the gentiles.
Any other time the gift was transferred it had to be done by the laying on of the Apostles hands. it was not for all but for those that were chosen as shepherds in the new church plants to grow the church in the Apostles absences. It is not was not and will not be for everyone but the indwelling given only through the baptism in Christ name is for every one that calls upon the Lord.
Chapter and verse in Acts?
You forgot the Ephesian speaking in tongues (19:1-6) and thus miss the 4-fold pattern discussed abov
Godslittleservant
Active Member
Acts 2:38 and no I did not forget Acts 19:6 it did not happen supernaturally but by Paul laying hands on them after he converted them (Acts 19:1-5) by the baptism in Christ name ( Acts 2:38) and it was because Paul just planted the church of Ephesus so he transferred the power of witness so they could be shepherds in the new church so he would be free to go spread the gospel.
Godslittleservant
Active Member
Most everyone says that the baptism talked about in Romans 6:3ff is the spirit baptism and I agree it is the one of Acts 2:38 a spiritual baptism where God is doing a spiritual work of transforming us from dead in sin to alive in Christ. We all agree it is a spiritual baptism but most cannot see that it is actually talking about the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ that he was to baptize with. That of Acts 2:38 the only only one he authorized his Apostles to do.
What is the evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit? None
The apostles were promised it, Luke 24:49,
- Jesus: Behold I send the promise of My Father upon you but tarry in Jerusalem until you(apostles) are endued with power from on high
John was speaking to the apostles when he said specifically to them,
Mark 1:8,
- I indeed baptized you with water but Jesus will baptize you(the apostles) with the Holy Spirit
Those who claim this HS baptism is for all believers are too careless in their meditation on the scriptures. Really, they probably dont really mediate on Gods word.
Now what was the Apostles evidence?
This promise is going to the apostles only IN JERSUSELM ON PENTECOST!!!
You were not in Jerusalem as Jesus commanded the apostles must be there to receive the baptism of the HS.
Now the apostles get it,
Acts 1:7,8
- Jesus: it is not for you(apostles) to know the times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority
But you(apostles) shall receive power when the HS comes upon you(apostles) and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and to the end of the earth
None of us witnessed Jesus' ressurection as the apostles did!
None of us were in Jerusalem on pentecost.
None of us witnessed in all of Judea.
None of us witnessed to the end of the earth.
Now here is the evidence of Holy Spirit baptism,
Acts 2:1-3,
- when the day of penetcost had fully come, they(apostles) were all with one accord in one place
And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind EVIDENCE
and IT filled the whole house where they were sitting
Then there appeared to them divided tongues as of fire EVIDENCE
and one sat upon each one of them EVEDENCE
And they(apostles) were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in tongues EVIDENCE
as the Spirit gave them utterance
Now most all claim all in the upper room all 120 received HS baptism.
You must carefully read ALL of Acts chapter 1 and Acts chapter 2
You must pay extremely close attention to the PRONOUNS being used.
You will learn that it is MEN FROM GALILEE that are the ones receiving the promise Jesus will baptize with the Holy Spirit.
Listen to who only was speaking in tongues,
Acts 2:1-7; 7,
- then all were amazed and marveled saying to one another, Look, are not ALL these that speak GALILAEANS
Go back to Acts 1:10-11,
- who said MEN OF GALILEE, why do you stand gazing up into heaven
This same Jesus who was taken up from you into heaven will so come in like manner
as you saw Him go into heaven
Did anyone here have a visible fire that sat upon them and a sound of a mighty rushing wind?
Where any of you told to be in Jerusalem when this power from on high would take place?
Where is your EVIDENCE? There is none
What do the saved receive from the Holy Spirit today?
Acts 2:38,
- Then Peter said to them, repent and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit
For the promise is to you and to your children and to all who are afar off as many as the Lord our God will call
The gift is given by the Holy Spirit.
The gift is not the Holy Spirit Himself!
This gift given by the Holy Spirit is promised to all who repent and are baptized for the remission of their sins.
Romans 6:23,
- for the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord
1John 2:25,
- and this is the promise that God has promised us, eternal life
Dont confuse miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit with baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Gifts of the Holy Spirit only occured by the laying on of the apostles hands,
No one in Acts chapter 2 those 3000 Jews that were saved on pentecost got miraculous gifts from the Holy Spirit.
The reason why is because gifts of the Holy Spirit only began in Acts chapter 8!!!
That's the first time the apostles laid hands on others to impart miraculous gifts.
Acts 8:14-15,16,17
- now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,
Who when they had come down prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit
for He had fallen upon none of them, they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus
Then they(apostles) laid hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit
Notice this multitude was already SAVED!!! Yet did not even have the Holy Spirit,
Acts 8:5,
- then Philip went down to the city of Samaria and preached Christ to them
And the multitude with one accord HEEDED the things spoken by Philip hearing and seeing the miracles which he did
Verse 12
- but when they BELIEVED Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ both men and women were baptized(water baptism)
We receive the gift of the Holy Spirit today when we believe and obey the gospel of Jesus Christ.
We are promised eternal life not Holy Spirit baptism.
Those in Acts 8 were saved yet still had not received any miraculous gift of the HS until the apostles came and laid hands on them. Proving the doctrine of recieving Holy Spirit baptism the moment you believe in Jesus to be false.
The apostles were promised it, Luke 24:49,
- Jesus: Behold I send the promise of My Father upon you but tarry in Jerusalem until you(apostles) are endued with power from on high
John was speaking to the apostles when he said specifically to them,
Mark 1:8,
- I indeed baptized you with water but Jesus will baptize you(the apostles) with the Holy Spirit
Those who claim this HS baptism is for all believers are too careless in their meditation on the scriptures. Really, they probably dont really mediate on Gods word.
Now what was the Apostles evidence?
This promise is going to the apostles only IN JERSUSELM ON PENTECOST!!!
You were not in Jerusalem as Jesus commanded the apostles must be there to receive the baptism of the HS.
Now the apostles get it,
Acts 1:7,8
- Jesus: it is not for you(apostles) to know the times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority
But you(apostles) shall receive power when the HS comes upon you(apostles) and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and to the end of the earth
None of us witnessed Jesus' ressurection as the apostles did!
None of us were in Jerusalem on pentecost.
None of us witnessed in all of Judea.
None of us witnessed to the end of the earth.
Now here is the evidence of Holy Spirit baptism,
Acts 2:1-3,
- when the day of penetcost had fully come, they(apostles) were all with one accord in one place
And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind EVIDENCE
and IT filled the whole house where they were sitting
Then there appeared to them divided tongues as of fire EVIDENCE
and one sat upon each one of them EVEDENCE
And they(apostles) were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in tongues EVIDENCE
as the Spirit gave them utterance
Now most all claim all in the upper room all 120 received HS baptism.
You must carefully read ALL of Acts chapter 1 and Acts chapter 2
You must pay extremely close attention to the PRONOUNS being used.
You will learn that it is MEN FROM GALILEE that are the ones receiving the promise Jesus will baptize with the Holy Spirit.
Listen to who only was speaking in tongues,
Acts 2:1-7; 7,
- then all were amazed and marveled saying to one another, Look, are not ALL these that speak GALILAEANS
Go back to Acts 1:10-11,
- who said MEN OF GALILEE, why do you stand gazing up into heaven
This same Jesus who was taken up from you into heaven will so come in like manner
as you saw Him go into heaven
Did anyone here have a visible fire that sat upon them and a sound of a mighty rushing wind?
Where any of you told to be in Jerusalem when this power from on high would take place?
Where is your EVIDENCE? There is none
What do the saved receive from the Holy Spirit today?
Acts 2:38,
- Then Peter said to them, repent and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit
For the promise is to you and to your children and to all who are afar off as many as the Lord our God will call
The gift is given by the Holy Spirit.
The gift is not the Holy Spirit Himself!
This gift given by the Holy Spirit is promised to all who repent and are baptized for the remission of their sins.
Romans 6:23,
- for the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord
1John 2:25,
- and this is the promise that God has promised us, eternal life
Dont confuse miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit with baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Gifts of the Holy Spirit only occured by the laying on of the apostles hands,
No one in Acts chapter 2 those 3000 Jews that were saved on pentecost got miraculous gifts from the Holy Spirit.
The reason why is because gifts of the Holy Spirit only began in Acts chapter 8!!!
That's the first time the apostles laid hands on others to impart miraculous gifts.
Acts 8:14-15,16,17
- now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,
Who when they had come down prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit
for He had fallen upon none of them, they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus
Then they(apostles) laid hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit
Notice this multitude was already SAVED!!! Yet did not even have the Holy Spirit,
Acts 8:5,
- then Philip went down to the city of Samaria and preached Christ to them
And the multitude with one accord HEEDED the things spoken by Philip hearing and seeing the miracles which he did
Verse 12
- but when they BELIEVED Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ both men and women were baptized(water baptism)
We receive the gift of the Holy Spirit today when we believe and obey the gospel of Jesus Christ.
We are promised eternal life not Holy Spirit baptism.
Those in Acts 8 were saved yet still had not received any miraculous gift of the HS until the apostles came and laid hands on them. Proving the doctrine of recieving Holy Spirit baptism the moment you believe in Jesus to be false.
Last edited:
Godslittleservant
Active Member
I agree with everything but one small glitch. The first laying on of hand happened in Acts 6 when The Apostles chose some to shepherd the church so they could go spread the gospel.
Excellent observation!!!! Very impressed you knew that!!!
Yes but they were not imparting miraculous gifts. They were laying hands on those men as a gesture of approval for there appointment.
Read the whole chapter and you will learn the laying on of hands in chapter 6 never mentions anything miraculous being given.
Miraculous gifts from the HS by the apostles hands is first recorded in Acts chapter 8.
Thankyou for reading my posts. And I am not above making mistakes. But what I teach I already have learned.
If I dont know I dont post because I try to not give out opinions only what sayeth the word of God.
Godslittleservant
Active Member
Acts 6:5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:
6 Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.
This is the same Philip that they laid hands on he received the power transferred by the Apostles for the first time.
Acts 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
6 Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.
This is the same Philip that they laid hands on he received the power transferred by the Apostles for the first time.
Acts 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
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