What is the meaning of life? Why are we here?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

JoeinArkansas

Member
Feb 14, 2012
84
0
6
63
Fayetteville, Arkansas
This is one of the most basic of questions that mankind has asked: what is the meaning of life for mankind? Why are we here? Do we have any control over our future? Understanding the scriptural answers to these questions is key to any new Christian's spiritual growth. Does anyone know some scriptures that help answer these questions?


Thanks,
Joe
 

MTPockets

New Member
Aug 4, 2012
155
15
0
Hi! 'JoeInArkansas'
Ummm, we all think and arrive at conclusions differently.
I personally never asked myself the question, "What is the meaning of life?". The question seemed to me to be much too mystical and elusive.
The question that always pestered me (prior my hearing the Gospel) was along the lines of your second question: "Why am I here?"
Your question, "Do we have any control over our future?", becomes somewhat redundant simply because the answer to the first question you posed becomes the answer to the second.
Then we have your final question: "Does anyone know some scriptures that help answer these questions?".
Wow! That's what the ENTIRE BIBLE answers. It's not as if someone might be able to pluck out a few scriptures and sufficiently answer your question.

Before I heard the gospel, I was a so-called 'professional' burglar and safe-cracker. I was always asking myself, "Well, if there's nothing more to life than eating an' sleeping ... why don't I jus' go out an' do the BIG SCORE ... even it meant killing a half dozen people ... and live like a prince?"
Yes, I had a conscience. But my conscience could sometimes seem like a nuisance to me. Just like there aren't too many successful sales men who stammer an' studder a lot, there aren't too many successful thieves who insist to retain a semblance of a moral compass either.
So, that's what I decided to do ... discover the meaning of my existence.
If I couldn't find the meaning of my existence, then no one else could attach a meaning to theirs either ... thus becoming expendable ... 'collateral damage', as one might say, to my earnest to be rich and self-sufficient.
Happily, I discovered the meaning of my existence. In so doing, God not only saved my own life; I suspect that He saved a few others in the process too ... physically, that is.
What exactly became the "meaning of life" for me?
Well, the short story is that I learned that everything which I had desired and treasured here on earth was temporary. Because of that, my greed and thoughts of murder became so much of a worthless thing to pursue.
The ol' story, "Yuh can't take it with yuh!", became very clear to me.
But much more than that:
I was absolutely astonished to learn that God desired me ... not merely loved me in some cuddly-creator-way ... but that He yearned for me.
But the final straw was when God showed me how, while I was busy stealing everyone's money and property, that the devil was stealing me away from Him through it all. It was my seeing the wounded heart of God that healed my own wounded heart.




.


.
 

JoeinArkansas

Member
Feb 14, 2012
84
0
6
63
Fayetteville, Arkansas
Hi! 'JoeInArkansas'
Ummm, we all think and arrive at conclusions differently.
I personally never asked myself the question, "What is the meaning of life?". The question seemed to me to be much too mystical and elusive.
The question that always pestered me (prior my hearing the Gospel) was along the lines of your second question: "Why am I here?"
Your question, "Do we have any control over our future?", becomes somewhat redundant simply because the answer to the first question you posed becomes the answer to the second.
Then we have your final question: "Does anyone know some scriptures that help answer these questions?".
Wow! That's what the ENTIRE BIBLE answers. It's not as if someone might be able to pluck out a few scriptures and sufficiently answer your question.

Before I heard the gospel, I was a so-called 'professional' burglar and safe-cracker. I was always asking myself, "Well, if there's nothing more to life than eating an' sleeping ... why don't I jus' go out an' do the BIG SCORE ... even it meant killing a half dozen people ... and live like a prince?"
Yes, I had a conscience. But my conscience could sometimes seem like a nuisance to me. Just like there aren't too many successful sales men who stammer an' studder a lot, there aren't too many successful thieves who insist to retain a semblance of a moral compass either.
So, that's what I decided to do ... discover the meaning of my existence.
If I couldn't find the meaning of my existence, then no one else could attach a meaning to theirs either ... thus becoming expendable ... 'collateral damage', as one might say, to my earnest to be rich and self-sufficient.
Happily, I discovered the meaning of my existence. In so doing, God not only saved my own life; I suspect that He saved a few others in the process too ... physically, that is.
What exactly became the "meaning of life" for me?
Well, the short story is that I learned that everything which I had desired and treasured here on earth was temporary. Because of that, my greed and thoughts of murder became so much of a worthless thing to pursue.
The ol' story, "Yuh can't take it with yuh!", became very clear to me.
But much more than that:
I was absolutely astonished to learn that God desired me ... not merely loved me in some cuddly-creator-way ... but that He yearned for me.
But the final straw was when God showed me how, while I was busy stealing everyone's money and property, that the devil was stealing me away from Him through it all. It was my seeing the wounded heart of God that healed my own wounded heart.




.


.

Dear MTPockets,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and being so open. Scripture does have many answers to the questions I posed but few know those answers and even fewer believe those answers. Here are some of the scriptures that answers the questions for me:

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

God created us to be made in His image. Of course, no one has been fully made into God's image at this time except for Christ. That leaves us with the conclusion that mankind is in the process of being made into God's image, from the best of human beings to the worst of human beings. In other words, we are all God's offspring that He is developing and teaching. At some point in time in the future, each person will be "born again" and will be like Christ, fully made into the image of God. Someday, when someone sees MTPockets, they will be able to say that when we see him, we are seeing the image of the Father and that MTPockets and the Father are one, just as Christ and the Father are one. Most of scripture deals with the details of us (mankind) changing from the carnal sinful creatures we are into perfect sinless children of God. It is a long, long process taking several ages of times. But by the completion of the final age, all of mankind will be in the Kingdom of Heaven, fully made into the image of God. Scripture proclaims the absolute power of God in accomplishing His will to make mankind into His children. However, most believe that God will fail with nearly all of mankind because man's will is too much for God to overcome - nonsense!


Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.


Isa 46:10-11 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

God has spoken that we will make mankind into His image and it will be accomplished by the plan He has layed out in scripture.


Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.



1 Tim 2:4-6 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

All of mankind that has ever lived are destined to become children of God. In this age, God's plan is to save only the first fruits of the havest of mankind and then in the final age to come, the full harvest of mankind will be brought into the Kingdom of Heaven. To me, the meaning of life is to learn and grow to become a child of God. Just because God's plan has not been revealed to everyone at this time does not make it any less certain to be accomplished in the life of each and every person who has ever lived. God's Word has gone out from His mouth and it will not return to Him void.

Joe
 

JoeinArkansas

Member
Feb 14, 2012
84
0
6
63
Fayetteville, Arkansas
Eph 4:13 until we reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the measure of the full stature of Christ

That's a good verse you quoted - all of mankind will someday be in the unity of faith and in the true knowledge of Christ, having grown to maturity in Christ and having attained to the image of God. This whole process of becoming a child of God is in the hands of God to complete and it is because of His love & grace that He will do it. All that He gives us (faith, repentance, judgment, etc.) is because of love & grace. By His grace we are saved and we are saved by all that He gives us. Grace is not a free ticket to heaven but a work of God that causes us to change into a new person in Christ and it is a long process for each of us. And once we are fully changed and receive the full measure of God's Spirit, only then can it be said that we are saved. Salvation is that change that comes inside us. It is not a location or destination as in the sense of "going to heaven". Heaven is that change inside us and is life more abundant.

Once we realize that "all things work together for good" (including the bad things) and know that God is working those things in the lives of all mankind for their eventual salvation, then we can view the people in the world with love and appreciation, even when they are at their worst. With love because they will someday be a brother or sister in the Kingdom of Heaven with us. With appreciation because of the part they play in our own growth and eventual salvation. Understanding God's plan gives meaning to the tribulation that we all must endure. But the tribulation is only temporary. What a glorious future each and every person has waiting for them - to be a child of God. But for now, we must have patience and wait for God's plan to unfold, "to be testified in due time".

Joe
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
52
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Learning how to love perfectly, like we were created to do and A&E did in the Garden before the Fall.
 

JoeinArkansas

Member
Feb 14, 2012
84
0
6
63
Fayetteville, Arkansas
Learning how to love perfectly, like we were created to do and A&E did in the Garden before the Fall.

Dear Aspen2,
Yes, learning how to love the way Christ loves is something everyone should seek to do. But until our carnal nature is replaced by the mind of Christ, we are always going to fall short of that goal, just as Adam and Eve fell short. Concerning Adam and Eve before the fall, why do you believe that they knew how to love perfectly? They were born just as carnal as we were and knew very little about love. They will have to learn about Christ's love in a future age before they will be ready for the Kingdom of Heaven. Did you know that we show our love for God when we follow His commands?

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Adam and Eve were given one command to follow but they were incapable of following it. This shows that their love for God was not very strong and that their carnal nature was much stronger. Before the fall, they were without sin but they were no less carnal than we are. If they had perfect love, they would have never sinned. And because they did not have perfect love, they could not have had the fullness of God's spirit dwelling in them (like Jesus). Adam and Eve did not have the ability to resist sin. God knew this when He created them in the manner in which He did. It was God's purpose that they should sin. It is God's plan that all mankind should sin so that we will have an experience of evil. It's necessary that mankind experience evil (the giving of it and the receiving of it) so that we know what good is and how it differs from evil. The knowledge of good and evil is necessary for mankind to be made into the image of God. God also gave mankind evil to humble us. It's one thing to see evil but another thing to actually be evil.


Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

That is why there is evil in the world - God purposed it to be here for our ultimate benefit. Experiencing evil is part of our growth process that is required to become a child of God. Being born into a child of God is a long and difficult process. But God will be with each of us through it all and He will direct our steps that leads to salvation in Christ. God is love and love never fails - not for even the worst of mankind.

Joe
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
52
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
JoeinArkansas said,

Yes, learning how to love the way Christ loves is something everyone should seek to do.

I believe it is our sole purpose.

But until our carnal nature is replaced by the mind of Christ, we are always going to fall short of that goal, just as Adam and Eve fell short.

I agree that we will far short of loving perfectly before our sanctification is complete. But on the first day of eternity, we will be in a perfect love relationship with Christ and His Body.

Concerning Adam and Eve before the fall, why do you believe that they knew how to love perfectly?

They were created to love perfectly - God declared them good. And they were in perfect relationship with God and each other until they chose to misuse creation (sin) and turned their love inward (selfish rather than selfless).

They were born just as carnal as we were and knew very little about love.

They were not born - they were created. They loved perfectly because they were able to walk with God without shame/guilt - they were naked before Him and each other.

They will have to learn about Christ's love in a future age before they will be ready for the Kingdom of Heaven.

They had/have/will have a chance for redemption through Christ's sacrifice - history and time happen in an instant before God.

Did you know that we show our love for God when we follow His commands?

Indeed. Following the sum of the law is loving God and neighbor perfectly, as we were created to do. If we are loving perfectly (selfless), it is impossible to sin (selfish).

Adam and Eve were given one command to follow but they were incapable of following it. This shows that their love for God was not very strong and that their carnal nature was much stronger.

They were not created with a carnal nature. They decided to misuse creation by eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. There was nothing important or special about the tree - it was not magic; it received it's name because it was misused. A&E could have misused any part of creation and it would have been remembered as the _____ of the Knowledge of Good and Evil; sort of like some parents have names for the paddle (peacemaker; learning paddle; justice; etc). It marked the point in time when A&E learned how to be selfish (sinful).

Before the fall, they were without sin but they were no less carnal than we are.

There is no evidence of this idea in the Bible. A Carnal person is a selfish person or a person with selfish (self gratifying) tendencies - in other words, the person is sinful or has sinful tendencies - this was the result of the Fall, not the result of Creation by God - He does not make sinful / broken creatures and call them Good.

If they had perfect love, they would have never sinned.

Perfect creatures with the capacity for freewill have the potential to misuse themselves or other parts of creation and therefore 'break'. Adam and Eve started off whole / good / perfect because they acted out their purpose without error; unfortunately, they chose to misuse themselves and the Tree, by gratifying self instead of loving God and each other, which resulted in their broken state.

And because they did not have perfect love, they could not have had the fullness of God's spirit dwelling in them (like Jesus). Adam and Eve did not have the ability to resist sin.

Sure they did. It was easier for them to continue to act in a loving manner towards each other and God than twist love into a monstrous form called self-love. The Spirit of God walked with them all the time - they were in perfect relationship with God until they made the decision to operate outside their capacity.

God knew this when He created them in the manner in which He did. It was God's purpose that they should sin.

Oh No! This idea is heresy (Dualism) and was condemned by the early Church. Mormons not Christians, teach this idea today. Here are several reasons why it is a false conclusion and rejected by Christianity:

1. Sin is not a force - it is a lack of Good. It is like cold is to heat; cold is not a force, it is a lack of heat.
2. Sin is a broken form of creation - it was created by good creatures with freewill, who decided to misuse creation.
3. Good can exist by itself, but evil can only exist in relationship to good.
4. Determining good from evil is not a 'skill' - Adam and Eve had no need to understand the difference between Good and Evil if Evil was never discovered. An analogy might look like, having to experience alcoholism in order to know what it feels like to be sober, when alcohol is never discovered.
5. Satan is not a counterpart to God - he is a mere creature; a cautionary tale of a willfully, broken piece of creation.

It is God's plan that all mankind should sin so that we will have an experience of evil. It's necessary that mankind experience evil (the giving of it and the receiving of it) so that we know what good is and how it differs from evil. The knowledge of good and evil is necessary for mankind to be made into the image of God. God also gave mankind evil to humble us. It's one thing to see evil but another thing to actually be evil.

No. Absolutely not. For one thing, we are already created in the image of God. 'Whole' does not need to be defined by 'partial' - it defines itself. If Good was dependent on Evil for definition, God, himself would have to be reliant on an Evil force (oxymoron) for His own definition. God is omnipotent / omniscient / omnipresent - He is truly self-reliant, 'I AM'.

Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

God allows brokenness to exist in the world and allows it to effect us, to humble us, but this is a far cry from creating it to mold us into perfection.

That is why there is evil in the world - God purposed it to be here for our ultimate benefit. Experiencing evil is part of our growth process that is required to become a child of God. Being born into a child of God is a long and difficult process. But God will be with each of us through it all and He will direct our steps that leads to salvation in Christ. God is love and love never fails - not for even the worst of mankind.

Sorry. We were created good and in the image of God; chose to misuse creation and blame it on another creature; and ended up in a broken, sinful state - having the tendency to love ourselves rather than God and our neighbor as we were created to do, AMEN
 

JoeinArkansas

Member
Feb 14, 2012
84
0
6
63
Fayetteville, Arkansas
JoeinArkansas said,

Yes, learning how to love the way Christ loves is something everyone should seek to do.

I believe it is our sole purpose.

But until our carnal nature is replaced by the mind of Christ, we are always going to fall short of that goal, just as Adam and Eve fell short.

I agree that we will far short of loving perfectly before our sanctification is complete. But on the first day of eternity, we will be in a perfect love relationship with Christ and His Body.

Concerning Adam and Eve before the fall, why do you believe that they knew how to love perfectly?

They were created to love perfectly - God declared them good. And they were in perfect relationship with God and each other until they chose to misuse creation (sin) and turned their love inward (selfish rather than selfless).

They were born just as carnal as we were and knew very little about love.

They were not born - they were created. They loved perfectly because they were able to walk with God without shame/guilt - they were naked before Him and each other.

They will have to learn about Christ's love in a future age before they will be ready for the Kingdom of Heaven.

They had/have/will have a chance for redemption through Christ's sacrifice - history and time happen in an instant before God.

Did you know that we show our love for God when we follow His commands?

Indeed. Following the sum of the law is loving God and neighbor perfectly, as we were created to do. If we are loving perfectly (selfless), it is impossible to sin (selfish).

Adam and Eve were given one command to follow but they were incapable of following it. This shows that their love for God was not very strong and that their carnal nature was much stronger.

They were not created with a carnal nature. They decided to misuse creation by eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. There was nothing important or special about the tree - it was not magic; it received it's name because it was misused. A&E could have misused any part of creation and it would have been remembered as the _____ of the Knowledge of Good and Evil; sort of like some parents have names for the paddle (peacemaker; learning paddle; justice; etc). It marked the point in time when A&E learned how to be selfish (sinful).

Before the fall, they were without sin but they were no less carnal than we are.

There is no evidence of this idea in the Bible. A Carnal person is a selfish person or a person with selfish (self gratifying) tendencies - in other words, the person is sinful or has sinful tendencies - this was the result of the Fall, not the result of Creation by God - He does not make sinful / broken creatures and call them Good.

If they had perfect love, they would have never sinned.

Perfect creatures with the capacity for freewill have the potential to misuse themselves or other parts of creation and therefore 'break'. Adam and Eve started off whole / good / perfect because they acted out their purpose without error; unfortunately, they chose to misuse themselves and the Tree, by gratifying self instead of loving God and each other, which resulted in their broken state.

And because they did not have perfect love, they could not have had the fullness of God's spirit dwelling in them (like Jesus). Adam and Eve did not have the ability to resist sin.

Sure they did. It was easier for them to continue to act in a loving manner towards each other and God than twist love into a monstrous form called self-love. The Spirit of God walked with them all the time - they were in perfect relationship with God until they made the decision to operate outside their capacity.

God knew this when He created them in the manner in which He did. It was God's purpose that they should sin.

Oh No! This idea is heresy (Dualism) and was condemned by the early Church. Mormons not Christians, teach this idea today. Here are several reasons why it is a false conclusion and rejected by Christianity:

1. Sin is not a force - it is a lack of Good. It is like cold is to heat; cold is not a force, it is a lack of heat.
2. Sin is a broken form of creation - it was created by good creatures with freewill, who decided to misuse creation.
3. Good can exist by itself, but evil can only exist in relationship to good.
4. Determining good from evil is not a 'skill' - Adam and Eve had no need to understand the difference between Good and Evil if Evil was never discovered. An analogy might look like, having to experience alcoholism in order to know what it feels like to be sober, when alcohol is never discovered.
5. Satan is not a counterpart to God - he is a mere creature; a cautionary tale of a willfully, broken piece of creation.

It is God's plan that all mankind should sin so that we will have an experience of evil. It's necessary that mankind experience evil (the giving of it and the receiving of it) so that we know what good is and how it differs from evil. The knowledge of good and evil is necessary for mankind to be made into the image of God. God also gave mankind evil to humble us. It's one thing to see evil but another thing to actually be evil.

No. Absolutely not. For one thing, we are already created in the image of God. 'Whole' does not need to be defined by 'partial' - it defines itself. If Good was dependent on Evil for definition, God, himself would have to be reliant on an Evil force (oxymoron) for His own definition. God is omnipotent / omniscient / omnipresent - He is truly self-reliant, 'I AM'.

Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

God allows brokenness to exist in the world and allows it to effect us, to humble us, but this is a far cry from creating it to mold us into perfection.

That is why there is evil in the world - God purposed it to be here for our ultimate benefit. Experiencing evil is part of our growth process that is required to become a child of God. Being born into a child of God is a long and difficult process. But God will be with each of us through it all and He will direct our steps that leads to salvation in Christ. God is love and love never fails - not for even the worst of mankind.

Sorry. We were created good and in the image of God; chose to misuse creation and blame it on another creature; and ended up in a broken, sinful state - having the tendency to love ourselves rather than God and our neighbor as we were created to do, AMEN

Dear Aspen2,
That is quite a response but every little of what you said is actually supported by scripture. What you said comes from church teachings but does not come from scripture. If what you said is true, why did you not quote the scriptures and let them speak to me?

Here is what scripture says:

1Joh 2:15-16 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world,(1) the lust of the flesh, and(2) the lust of the eyes, and (3) the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Eve exhibited all three of the weaknesses of our carnality BEFORE she sinned. These weakness are of THIS WORLD, and come from our carnality.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food (LUST OF THE FLESH), and that it was pleasant to the eyes (LUST OF THE EYES), and a tree to be desired to make one wise (LUST OF THE PRIDE OF LIFE), she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Adam and Eve were created just as carnal as we were and it was GOOD for the purpose of making man into His image. God planned for Adam and Eve to sin. He knew what He was doing and even so, He said that it was "good".

Rom 8:20-21 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Adam and Eve were made suject to "vanity" which Gen 3:6 testifies to us. Eve was carnal before she sinned and her sin is a direct result of her carnality. In Rom 8:20, God says He made us subject to "vanity" for a reason and that was to make us "into the glorious liberty of the children of God". The Word of God is an account of how God makes His children. God's plan for each person is working perfectly. When God finished the 6 days of creation, He said it was "good". It was good for making many sons and daughters of God. God created everything in this world and it "works together for good", the same "good" that He said about His creation work. All the sin and evil in the world was created by God for a purpose. It did not come into the world by accident or because of Adam and Eve's supposed "free will". Satan was even created to destroy and to tempt. He was never an angel of light who "fell". Scripture says that Satan was evil from the beginning:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

From the beginning, Satan did not live in truth and he was a murderer. Did He fall into this state of being or did God created him for this purpose?

Isa 54:17 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

Satan was created to be who he is and to play a key part in God's creation plan. The scriptures that are commonly used to show that Satan is a fallen angel are completely misunderstood and are not speaking of Satan. The name "Lucifier" is not even in scripture - it is an translation error. I'll let you research it for yourself if you are so inclined. I can steer you to a good expose' of it if you are interested.

Also, you mentioned in your reply that we have a "free will" to direct our our lives and do as we please. If that we so, then God is a liar and the scripture is not worth the paper it is printed on. According to scripture, mankind does not have that ability - only God does. Here are just a few of the scriptures that teach mankind does not have free moral agency:

John 1:12–13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Eph 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps. (Darby)

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, Thou appointest peace to us, For, all our works also Thou hast wrought for us. (Darby)

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Ecc 3:1 To every thing there is a season and a time to every purpose under the heaven.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

If as you say, mankind has a free will, then the scriptures above are lies. Do you know why man can't "understand his own way"? God has placed "obsurity" in our carnal hearts.

Ecc 3:11 He (God) has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does, that which God does from the beginning to the end.

If as you say, Adam and Eve were perfect from the beginning, why did they sin? You say because they had a free will to choose to follow God or not. After they are saved and become perfect again, what is going to stop them from choosing "from the power of their free will" to sin again? If they sinned the first time, they may do it again. If mankind has free will as you define it, what is going to stop us from sinning again someday after we are made into the image of God? Do you have a "free will" to choose to sin or not? Do you still have sin in your life or are you perfect? If you have the power to choose not to sin, then the Law of Moses would have been all that was necessary for at least some of mankind to choose not to sin. But it never happened and never will. God created us carnal with no ability to stop sinning. Our "free will" you believe we have is no match for our carnal state. But you say Adam and Eve were not carnal when they choose to sin. You said they we "perfect". So what will ever stop mankind from sinning if we are perfect but have a "free will"?

In the future, scripture says that Christ will destroy "death" which is the penalty of sin (not the fabled place called hell). If death is destroyed, by necessity sin must likewise be destroyed. If we have a "free will", I don't see how God can ever be sure that someday we won't decide to sin again.

The reason He can be sure is because we do not have a free will. We have a will but it is subject to God's will at all times. If God says that all men will be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth, then it will happen. Our "will" is not strong enough to stop Him.

1 Tim 2:4-6 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do. (Darby)

Isa 46:10-11 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

God can declare the end from the beginning not because He can see into the future and see how things turn out. No, there is not one scripture that supports that false teaching. What scripture does say is that God directs all things to the outcome He desires. He knows the end from the beginning because He has the power to cause the future to be just as He says. All the members of Christ's true church have been chosen since the foundation of the creation. How is this so? It's not because God looks into the future and takes a peek. It happens because God directs all things and causes all things to happen just has He wills. God reigns supreme. The scriptures I have quoted above declare it to be so and the carnal mind of man hates it with a passion. In fact, the carnal mind of man hates God and refuses to come to Him. If it weren't for God's grace in choosing to draw us to Him, we would never choose to come to Him - not even one person. God is the cause and it does not come from within us "lest we should boast".

If there is a specific point you made in your response to me that I did not answer, please point it out and I will answer it.

Joe
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
52
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I started responding to you post about two hours ago and I have only gotten through a third of it. There is so much you have written that needs to be straighten out, I am not sure I have the time to commit to it, Joe.

I am not sure where you have acquired your ideas about scripture, but your understanding of the Fall of humanity is heresy.

If I have time, I may just add scripture references to my first response to your post.

blessings
 

JoeinArkansas

Member
Feb 14, 2012
84
0
6
63
Fayetteville, Arkansas
I started responding to you post about two hours ago and I have only gotten through a third of it. There is so much you have written that needs to be straighten out, I am not sure I have the time to commit to it, Joe.

I am not sure where you have acquired your ideas about scripture, but your understanding of the Fall of humanity is heresy.

If I have time, I may just add scripture references to my first response to your post.

blessings

Dear Aspen2,
Up until I was 44 years old and had been in the "church" all my adult life, I believed probably most of what you believe. I studied and taught others and was a well respect teacher in my church. Then EVERYTHING changed. My world was turned upside down from out of the blue. Christ came to me (not visibly) and healed my spiritual blindness. This scripture in Mark ch. 8 is scripturally what happened to me.

Mark 8:25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

If you can understand the meaning of why Christ took the blind man out of the town and healed his vision twice, then you will understand what occurred in my life and why everything changed in my Christian life. I had always thought I have spiritual vision before that day of October 8, 2005 but I was wrong. I couldn't have been more wrong. For most of my life I was spiritually blind. I soon learned through scripture that when we first come to Christ, He gives us just enough spiritual vision so that we want to follow him. But like the blind man, Christ only heals us to the point of being very nearsighted. And because we are so nearsighted, we are EASILY deceived. Scripturally speaking, at this point we are "spiritually blind". Then, if Christ chooses us to truly know Him and His truth, He will come again to us and heal our vision completely (second coming of Christ to the individual). It is at this point that we can see and understand the true Christ through His Word. For me, I was rejected by my church and within two weeks of my healing, I heard Christ's voice calling to me and commanding me to "come out of her my people" (Rev 18:4). My wife experienced the same event with me on that day. Since that time, we have never again set foot in a "church". Immediately, scripture opened up to me and I soon learned that the churches in the world (all denominations or groups) are harlot and that Christ's true church is made up of those whom He has called out from their midst. In fact, the churches are so harlot that not one mainstream doctrine is based on the truth of scripture. Some do have elements of truth, but those are the worst because they are so deceiving. Some time after my healing, I found a few people through the internet that had experienced the same healing and they too had immediately left their churches. But the number is very small.

Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus is the pattern that Christ layed out for those who are called and chosen for His church. Let me explain. When Christ first appeared to Paul on the road, Paul immediately calls Him Lord but also immediately became blind (spiritually nearsighted as in the man from Mark ch. 8). For three days, Paul was led around by the hand. This symbolizes Paul's time in the harlot church where, being spiritual blind, Paul allows others to lead him around. This is the time where the harlot church makes us into a "child of the devil". But after 3 days, Paul is healed. The number 3 in scripture is used to symbolized a process of time. Upon Paul's healing of His blindness, He receives the Holy Spirit and now has spiritual understanding. That is the point where our spiritual growth begins. Most people who have been called to Christ have never had Christ come to them a second time to heal their spiritual vision. They remain in the harlot church until their death where the blind lead the blind. From there they will go to judgment and will be cast into the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire is a symbol for a confined place of judgment. It is not eternal as the translations say but it is only for an age. At the end of that age, the trumpet will sound and the Feast of Tabernalces harvest will begin taking place. Once the fullness of the Gentiles are brought in (harvested), then the physical nation of Israel will be saved. It is all in scripture but it is hidden from the masses and is only revealed to those who have been given spiritual eyes and ears.

Haven't you wondered why Christ made a point of ending a lot of His teachings with "for those with eyes to see" or words to that effect? The parables are a tool Christ uses to keep the true meaning of His teachings hidden. The book of Revelation is taught in symbols to keep its meaning concealed as well. In fact, the entire bible is really one big parable. The "called" that dwell in the harlot churches have no clue as to what scriputre really teaches. Christ has hidden His meaning and only reveals it to those He chooses. And to make matters worse for those in the "church", Satan has moved in and is masquerading as Christ. It is Satan's doctrines that the churches of the world are actually following. Satan deceives the world and that means everyone except for those who Christ chooses to come out from that delusion. Haven't you ever thought about the doctrine of hell and being eternally lost? That doctrine goes against everything that Christ is and stands for. The hell doctrine comes from Satan. Can you imagine anything that is more hideous and evil than tormenting someone in fire for all eternity for no redeeming purpose? The harlot church calls it justice. I call it Satanic and sick. It is no wonder Christ will sprew those members of the harlot church out of His mouth. But because those same people say that they can see, their sin will remain until they repent in the Lake of Fire.

So now you have a better idea of why I understand scripture as I do. As long as you can read scripture like 1Tim 2:4-6 and maintain that it really says Christ is NOT going to save the all men nor is he going to teach them His truth, then we are going to disagree on the meaning of just about everything else in scripture. But if you have an interest, I am willing to share what the Lord leads me to share with you.


1 Tim 2:4-6 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Joe
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
52
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You are right, I do have a better idea of where you are coming from, but I am even more worried because you seem to be relying on private interpretation and a gnostic method of understanding the scriptures.
 

JoeinArkansas

Member
Feb 14, 2012
84
0
6
63
Fayetteville, Arkansas
You are right, I do have a better idea of where you are coming from, but I am even more worried because you seem to be relying on private interpretation and a gnostic method of understanding the scriptures.

Dear Aspen2,
You don't need to be worried about me because I trust my "private interpretation". My understanding of scripture comes directly from the Holy Spirit. I don't need or desire anyone else to tell me what scripture means any longer. When I was a babe in Christ, God provided me with a fine teacher. But now that I have matured, I receive my understanding of scripture from God.


Isa 28:9 Whom will He direct in knowledge? And to whom will He explain a report? Those weaned from milk. Those pulled away from breasts.

Christ says that He will give "hidden manna" to those who overcome this world, who have had their spiritual hearing and vision healed.

Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Manna is the Word of God given to us as scripture. It is for His Elect and only they can eat it (understand and believe it). Christ's hidden manna is not available to the masses because they are only called to be in His church. His bread is given to those who have been blessed to be called AND CHOSEN. Certainly, the doctrines of the harlot church are not hidden to any of her followers. However, her bread is not bread at all, it is stones given to her by the Father of lies. Christ rejected the stones but Satan's church eats them right up.

Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.


Prov 2:1-5 My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

Christ's true church is quite small and is made up of only the chosen few. And in Luke 18:8, even with the earth's population explosion, Christ questioned whether or not He will find any faith on earth. Now contrast that scripture with the churches of today who claim to have 100's of millions of saved followers of Christ. I see a problem here. Who do you believe is correct?

Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Joe
 

[email protected]

Choir Loft
Apr 2, 2009
1,635
127
63
West Central Florida
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
This is one of the most basic of questions that mankind has asked: what is the meaning of life for mankind? Why are we here? Do we have any control over our future? Understanding the scriptural answers to these questions is key to any new Christian's spiritual growth. Does anyone know some scriptures that help answer these questions?


Thanks,
Joe

I was raised in the Episcopal Church, which had no theoretical questions to ask. Answers to the meaning of life? Forget about it.
Church was just something you did on Sunday morning even if you'd rather be doing something else. At the first opportunity, I quit.
Why?
Empty, boring, completely lacking in purpose and the ability to address my biggest question about God.
What do I do about Jesus?

My mom was embarrassed that I even asked questions about God and Jesus and sent me to an Episcopal priest who gave me a lecture about patriotism and duty. He knew less than I did, really.

And so my life began in earnest, guided directed and persuaded by people I respected; extorted by others I did not know....'patriots' in uniform who needed to fill quotas for military enlistment. After that first venture into philosophical wanderings, my curiosity was quenched by the immediacy and lusts of life. In short, there was never any inner purpose. Plenty of outer pressure to conform, though. That was the sole nature of purpose. Control over my future? None of that either.

I went overseas and spent time among people who never raised the question, being too consumed by activities to simply keep them alive. I spent time eating, drinking and talking with men from military persuasions of other countries; a member of the French foreign legion, sailors in the French Navy, a fellow from Hong Kong who looked and talked and acted like a man from another planet and a communist soldier who spent time with his comrades in the hills and jungles during the week and enjoyed the night life in town on the weekends. I worked with small police departments from Cuba to Pakistan and spent hours talking to guys in the Indian military. Nobody had a purpose apart from trying to make a life for themselves or just survive the experience they'd been thrust into. Just like me.

Then I got saved.

In short order I found myself in the midst of a hurricane of dogmas, doctrines and self-serving protestant evangelicals. For a while it was a grand party until I discovered that they hadn't a clue about purpose, spiritual growth or control of the future either. What's more they didn't want it. They had only exchanged one set of chains for another and were quite happy with telling themselves that they were 'special' when in fact they were just as aimless as everybody else.

Once those folk surrendered to Jesus it seemed that they just continued to allow the winds of chance to blow them along like rudderless ships at sea. They just called it God's will instead of political expediency. Some of those I met had developed a doctrine to justify their meandering attitude and path. Some believed that they had a choice in life, while others insisted that they were puppets of ethereal energies. To this day they defend their notions to the ends of their limited understanding, which usually isn't much. Illiteracy and ideology among the gullible and impressionable goes far to steal anything that resembles purpose or self-determination. You can salute the flag of John Calvin or Jacobus Arminius all you want, but the bottom line is that you do what you're told to do. That's the end of the argument in America today. You do what you're told to do because, just like everybody else in the world, you have to secure a living for yourself and your family. It doesn't matter at all if doing what your told to do is immoral, destructive and in direct opposition to everything Jesus Christ stood for.

The programming of the masses is complete. Somewhere in the dark and quiet moments as we rest our heads on our pillows we sometimes wonder. Just before we drift off to sleep on rare occasions we wonder how we got to the place we occupy and what will happen tomorrow. Then sleep takes what is left of our waking minds and before we know it we rise to begin another day of pre-programmed activity and thinking.

None of us are able or even willing to veer from the path we find ourselves upon. There's a name for that path. We call it a rut. Do you know what a rut is, really? It's a grave with the ends kicked out.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...
 

Stumpmaster

Well-Known Member
Apr 5, 2009
2,099
1,420
113
69
Hamilton, New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
If you want to know the meaning of life live a life of meaning...like Christ!

In terms of natural history the meaning of life is naturally evident, as proof of what is possible.

 

JoeinArkansas

Member
Feb 14, 2012
84
0
6
63
Fayetteville, Arkansas
I was raised in the Episcopal Church, which had no theoretical questions to ask. Answers to the meaning of life? Forget about it.
Church was just something you did on Sunday morning even if you'd rather be doing something else. At the first opportunity, I quit.
Why?
Empty, boring, completely lacking in purpose and the ability to address my biggest question about God.
What do I do about Jesus?

My mom was embarrassed that I even asked questions about God and Jesus and sent me to an Episcopal priest who gave me a lecture about patriotism and duty. He knew less than I did, really.

And so my life began in earnest, guided directed and persuaded by people I respected; extorted by others I did not know....'patriots' in uniform who needed to fill quotas for military enlistment. After that first venture into philosophical wanderings, my curiosity was quenched by the immediacy and lusts of life. In short, there was never any inner purpose. Plenty of outer pressure to conform, though. That was the sole nature of purpose. Control over my future? None of that either.

I went overseas and spent time among people who never raised the question, being too consumed by activities to simply keep them alive. I spent time eating, drinking and talking with men from military persuasions of other countries; a member of the French foreign legion, sailors in the French Navy, a fellow from Hong Kong who looked and talked and acted like a man from another planet and a communist soldier who spent time with his comrades in the hills and jungles during the week and enjoyed the night life in town on the weekends. I worked with small police departments from Cuba to Pakistan and spent hours talking to guys in the Indian military. Nobody had a purpose apart from trying to make a life for themselves or just survive the experience they'd been thrust into. Just like me.

Then I got saved.

In short order I found myself in the midst of a hurricane of dogmas, doctrines and self-serving protestant evangelicals. For a while it was a grand party until I discovered that they hadn't a clue about purpose, spiritual growth or control of the future either. What's more they didn't want it. They had only exchanged one set of chains for another and were quite happy with telling themselves that they were 'special' when in fact they were just as aimless as everybody else.

Once those folk surrendered to Jesus it seemed that they just continued to allow the winds of chance to blow them along like rudderless ships at sea. They just called it God's will instead of political expediency. Some of those I met had developed a doctrine to justify their meandering attitude and path. Some believed that they had a choice in life, while others insisted that they were puppets of ethereal energies. To this day they defend their notions to the ends of their limited understanding, which usually isn't much. Illiteracy and ideology among the gullible and impressionable goes far to steal anything that resembles purpose or self-determination. You can salute the flag of John Calvin or Jacobus Arminius all you want, but the bottom line is that you do what you're told to do. That's the end of the argument in America today. You do what you're told to do because, just like everybody else in the world, you have to secure a living for yourself and your family. It doesn't matter at all if doing what your told to do is immoral, destructive and in direct opposition to everything Jesus Christ stood for.

The programming of the masses is complete. Somewhere in the dark and quiet moments as we rest our heads on our pillows we sometimes wonder. Just before we drift off to sleep on rare occasions we wonder how we got to the place we occupy and what will happen tomorrow. Then sleep takes what is left of our waking minds and before we know it we rise to begin another day of pre-programmed activity and thinking.

None of us are able or even willing to veer from the path we find ourselves upon. There's a name for that path. We call it a rut. Do you know what a rut is, really? It's a grave with the ends kicked out.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

Dear [email protected]
I read your entire post with great interest. I too have had similiar experiences and feelings in the past, but no longer. However, there is a lot of truth in what you said, you just don't seem to understand the reasons why things are the way they are - and there are some very good reasons for why things are the way they are. I wish you would read some of my recent posts (the "Satan" thread, "why I never go to church" thread and also on this thread). They will give you my understanding from scripture why things are the way they are. You might be amazed at what you read. Things in this life are not what they seem to be. Satan has deceived the entire whole including the "church". Rather than repeat what I have previously written, please read my recent posts. I would like to know what you think after you have read them.

Thanks for sharing,
Joe
 

Brother James

Active Member
Jun 2, 2008
270
56
28
68
Melbourne, FL
The Westminster Shorter Catechism says that, "Man's chief end is to glorify God and to enjoy Him forever."

That seems sufficient to give life meaning for me.

I don't need or desire anyone else to tell me what scripture means any longer.

I hope never to get to that point. I have yet to meet a person I was convinced had 100% perfect understanding of all of God's truths. I'm certainly not one.
 

JoeinArkansas

Member
Feb 14, 2012
84
0
6
63
Fayetteville, Arkansas
I hope never to get to that point. I have yet to meet a person I was convinced had 100% perfect understanding of all of God's truths. I'm certainly not one.

Dear Brother James,
If you have never met anyone with perfect understanding, then why do you still listen to others? Christ has perfect understanding. You should be desiring to "get to that point" of having your knowledge of Christ come from Christ. Our relationship should be with Christ, not a church or church leader. After we spiritually mature in Christ, teachers will no longer be necessary.

Eph 4:11-15 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:

It should be your goal to "get to that point".

Joe
 

Brother James

Active Member
Jun 2, 2008
270
56
28
68
Melbourne, FL
I listen to others because I do not fancy myself to be superior to everyone else. I have much to learn from those God has blessed with the gift of teaching. When I think I have no use for other people, I will know I've gone far away from what Christ wants for me.

What I know of Christ certainly comes from Him. Pride and arrogance are terrible things, though. I am barely worthy to stoop and wash my brothers' feet, and I certainly do not view them as my lessers. I certainly hope I would not use the understanding God has granted me to lord over others.

I reflect on Revelation 3:17, which reads: "Because you say, 'I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing'--and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked--"

Verses like that keep me from thinking I cannot learn from my brother or sister, because when I think I'm "all that", I'm ready for painful correction.

I have, in fact, taken classes over the summer at a Christian university that have given me great insights on how I can study scriptures better. I remember my great-grandmother sitting and studying her Bible when she was 87 years old and the joy you could see on her face as she came to some deeper understanding of God's Word. There is no such thing as finally arriving at perfection until we are with Him in His Kingdom.
 

us2are1

Son Of Man
Sep 14, 2011
895
26
0
This is one of the most basic of questions that mankind has asked: what is the meaning of life for mankind? Why are we here? Do we have any control over our future? Understanding the scriptural answers to these questions is key to any new Christian's spiritual growth. Does anyone know some scriptures that help answer these questions?


Thanks,
Joe

Man was created for Christ to save. To believe and trust in the invisible God. Then After salvation to fellowship with God in person.

9 But as it is written: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him."