What is the mystery that Paul references in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52? Is it the rapture (catching up to Christ) as pretrib teaches or something else?

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Davidpt

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I believe it is taking the church to heaven. It talaks of Him going and coming and receiving us to Himself.

Look what this ignores, though.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 ¶And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?


Jesus was talking to Thomas at the time, for one. Obviously then, all the pronouns are meaning the ones He was talking to at the time. Not only them though, so not suggesting that. So the point is, we can't exclude them. And the fact Thomas is already long dead and gone how can Jesus come again and receive Thomas to Himself during the rapture of the church when that involves those still alive at the time not someone already dead?

Here's what the text would look like if we insert Thomas into it like such, for example.

Thomas, in my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you, Thomas. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you, Thomas, unto myself; that where I am, there ye, Thomas, may be also.


How then does that fit with how you are interpreting that passage by having it only involving a raptured church and none of it involving the ones He was speaking to at the time?

Which brings up something else. If it is true that Thomas literally went to heaven upon death and that he is there now, thus where Jesus is, there Thomas is al;so, why then was Jesus applying that after He comes again rather than before He comes again?

How can anyone read the following and have such subpar reading comprehension that they conclude He is meaning before He comes again rather than after---I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also?


That part is a lie if Thomas is already where Jesus now is. It's a lie several ways. First of all the text does not say one comes to Jesus before He comes again. After all, if Thomas is already in heaven with Jesus before He comes again, this equals Thomas coming to where Jesus is, not Jesus coming to get Thomas first, then Thomas being where Jesus is. It's also a lie since Thomas would already be where Jesus is, except this passage says Jesus has to come again first, then Thomas will be where He is.

Makes me wonder why many, including me, don't think soul sleep is Biblical? Are we being honest with the text? Is there a way to understand this to where Thomas can already be where He is, yet not already be where He is until He comes again and receives Thomas to Himself? That sounds like a contradiction to me, not something that can be squared somehow.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Jesus was talking to Thomas at the time, for one. Obviously then, all the pronouns are meaning the ones He was talking to at the time. Not only them though, so not suggesting that. So the point is, we can't exclude them. And the fact Thomas is already long dead and gone how can Jesus come again and receive Thomas to Himself during the rapture of the church when that involves those still alive at the time not someone already dead?
You have not listened to SCripture then.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

King James Version

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Thomas, in my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you, Thomas. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you, Thomas, unto myself; that where I am, there ye, Thomas, may be also.


How then does that fit with how you are interpreting that passage by having it only involving a raptured church and none of it involving the ones He was speaking to at the time?

Which brings up something else. If it is true that Thomas literally went to heaven upon death and that he is there now, thus where Jesus is, there Thomas is al;so, why then was Jesus applying that after He comes again rather than before He comes again?
First off, the promise of heaven is not a "may be" but a certainty.

The Apostles along with the rest of the 120 in the upper room at Pentecost, were the first members of the church.

Thomas' body is in the ground, but his soul and spirit are in heaven as God declared through Paul in 2 Cor.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8

King James Version

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
How can anyone read the following and have such subpar reading comprehension that they conclude He is meaning before He comes again rather than after---I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also?
Well your not so subtle dig aside, I have excellent reading Comprehension thank you! I do not know what the souls of the church are doing in heaven now, but the Scripture says they are there so they are there. Taking one passage and isolating it from the counsel of the rest of the NT is very unwise.
 

3 Resurrections

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Those who teach Jesus has already returned bodily are called "Full Preterist" with this teaching being false and complete heresy IMHO
You are incorrect. The Full Preterists NEVER teach that Christ BODILY returned in AD 70. When the Full Preterists teach that Christ never planned to return bodily to this planet at all to bodily resurrect His saints, this truly IS false teaching and complete heresy. This false teaching is NOT what I just wrote.
 

Davidpt

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You have not listened to SCripture then.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

King James Version

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

First off, the promise of heaven is not a "may be" but a certainty.

The Apostles along with the rest of the 120 in the upper room at Pentecost, were the first members of the church.

Thomas' body is in the ground, but his soul and spirit are in heaven as God declared through Paul in 2 Cor.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8

King James Version

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

IOW, you have zero to actually address anything I said. You completely ignored the fact that Jesus has to come again first, including in Thomas' case, before He can receive anyone to Himself, including Thomas.


Well your not so subtle dig aside, I have excellent reading Comprehension thank you! I do not know what the souls of the church are doing in heaven now, but the Scripture says they are there so they are there. Taking one passage and isolating it from the counsel of the rest of the NT is very unwise.

As to that, I was just applying that in general, not to anyone in particular. My point was, no matter who you are, to read that to mean Jesus does not have to come again before He can receive someone to Himself, shows subpar reading comprehension pertaining to that in particular. Anyone that does not read it in that manner, this obviously excludes them having subpar reading comprehension pertaining to that part in particular.

There is only one correct way to understand the following. Not several different ways.

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

It either means this, thus exactly what it says---First He has to go and prepare a place for us, including Thomas. After He does this He then will come again. Can't come again unless He already came earlier but then left. And when He comes again, it is at that time that He receives us unto Himself including Thomas, that where He is, there we may be also, including Thomas.

Or it means this instead, thus not what it says---And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will NOT come again, and receive you unto myself at that time; because where I am, you are already there, therefore, I don't need to come again in order to do that.
 

grafted branch

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You think the end of the age happened in 70 AD.
You are correct when you said in post # 49 “Jesus made it clear that when He spoke about ages, He always had two ages in mind. This age and the age to come.”. The two ages were the old covenant age and the new covenant age.

Let’s look at Luke 20.

Vs 34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage.

The “children of this world” are also seen in Luke 16:8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.

The “children of this world” or children of this age, which are the unjust stewards, is directly referring to the scribes and Pharisees.

These unjust stewards are married and given in marriage just as people did in the days before the flood. In Luke 17:27 they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Up until the flood they were married and given in marriage but after the flood they no longer were married or given in marriage.

Jesus was in the old covenant age when He spoke, He was simply stating that in that current old covenant age, people under the old covenant were getting married, just as it was prior to the flood.

Vs 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

The old covenant wife Israel was divorced by God and the new covenant “Israel of God” became His betrothed bride. The old covenant believers who were worthy, did obtain the new covenant resurrection but they are not married (they have been divorced) nor are they given in marriage (they are not the betrothed bride).

Vs 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection

Notice here that they are equal to the angels and angels are not the bride nor are they betrothed.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I believe it is taking the church to heaven. It talaks of Him going and coming and receiving us to Himself.
Yes, but according to Paul He will receive us to Himself "in the air", not in heaven. Nothing specifically says He then turns back around and takes us to heaven with Him. I believe He will be bringing heaven to us in the form of the new heaven.

Also in Rev. 19 we see the marriage of the church to Jesus take place in heaven before He returns.
That is not what it says. Instead, it says the bride is ready for the marriage. Not that the marriage has already taken place.

Revelation 19:Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

It wouldn't say "his wife hath made herself ready" if the marriage already took place at this point. What this verse is saying is that the time of the marriage will have come at that point and the bride has made herself ready for it.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Most of what Paul taught was "a mystery".

Paul uses that word like you use "spiritually discerned".
LOL. As usual, you have no idea of what you're talking about. What he wrote in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 doesn't take much spiritual discernment at all to see what the mystery was that he revealed. He revealed the mystery very straightforwardly. So, no, you are wrong that Paul used the term "mystery" in the same sense as something needing to be "spiritually discerned", like he wrote about in 1 Corinthians 2:9-16.

Arguing over what specifically was a mystery and what was not a mystery, seems pointless.
Of course it would seem pointless to you because you don't understand anything. But, the reason for it is to show that the rapture itself (the act of being gathered and caught up to Christ) was not a mystery at the time Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 as pretribs claim. They want to believe that because that would mean the rapture was never previously mentioned. But, it was in John 14:1-3 and Matthew 24:31 (Mark 13:27). Pretribs don't want to admit that the rapture is referenced in Matthew 24:29-31 which talks about the gathering of believers occurring "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days".
 

Truth7t7

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You are incorrect. The Full Preterists NEVER teach that Christ BODILY returned in AD 70. When the Full Preterists teach that Christ never planned to return bodily to this planet at all to bodily resurrect His saints, this truly IS false teaching and complete heresy. This false teaching is NOT what I just wrote.
Jesus didn't return bodily in 70AD a "False Claim"
 

3 Resurrections

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Jesus didn't return bodily in 70AD a "False Claim"
Yes, He did, according to His own promise that there would be some of those He was speaking to during His earthly ministry who would not have died before He came in the glory of His Father with His angels, to give rewards to everyone according to their works (Matt. 16:27-28).

I believe Him. Christ was not a false prophet.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Yes, He did, according to His own promise that there would be some of those He was speaking to during His earthly ministry who would not have died before He came in the glory of His Father with His angels, to give rewards to everyone according to their works (Matt. 16:27-28).

I believe Him. Christ was not a false prophet.
I believe you are missing the context of Matthew 16:27-28. It is unfortunate that a chapter break was put in after Matthew 16:28 because that was a mistake. There is no chapter break after the same text in Luke 9:26-27. Why it was decided to put one after Matthew 16:28 but not after Luke 9:27 is anyone's guess. And look at happened in Mark:

Mark 8:38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels. 9:1 And he said to them, “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.” 2 After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them.

Obviously, putting a chapter break after Mark 8:38 was ridiculous and a bad decision. In my opinion the same is the case for putting a chapter break after Matthew 16:28.

Anyway, let's look at those verses in context which requires looking at several verses which followed that.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. 28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. 6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. 7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. 8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only. 9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

The way I interpret this passage is that, first, Jesus told them what would happen at some point in the future, which is that He will "come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works". Which is exactly what we see portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46.

Where I believe you go astray is in your understanding of Matthew 16:28. In that verse Jesus was NOT telling them that some of them standing there would not die before He came in glory with His angels. That event so clearly has not yet happened. I believe it is INSANE to think otherwise. Have you stood before Christ to give an account of yourself yet? No. I haven't, either. So, judgment day has not yet come because it involves the judgment of all people from all time.

So, what was Jesus saying in verse 28 then? The answer is found in the verses that follow which were not divided from the text of Matthew 16:27-28 in the original manuscripts. He was not talking about His coming in glory itself in verse 28, He was talking about giving them a preview or taste of His coming in glory by way of His transfiguration. The "some" who were standing there that He guaranteed to get a preview of Him coming in glory before they died were Peter, James and John.

Notice in Matthew 17:2-3 that Jesus "was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.". He appeared to them in glory. That is what He was talking about in Matthew 16:28. He gave them a preview or taste of what His future coming in glory would be like. Moses and Elijah being there talking to Him also gave a preview of the fact that His saints, which includes all OT saints, would be with Him when He comes in glory with His angels.

One other thing to consider here is that Jesus said no one knows the day or hour of His coming in glory with His angels (Matt 24:36, Matt 25:13). Not even Him. Only the Father. So, considering even He didn't know when He would come in glory, how could He know whether any of them standing there at the time would still be alive or not when He came in glory with His angels? He would not have known that.

I believe your doctrine is built upon misinterpretations of passages like Matthew 16:27-28, which is unfortunate.
 
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Truth7t7

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Yes, He did, according to His own promise that there would be some of those He was speaking to during His earthly ministry who would not have died before He came in the glory of His Father with His angels, to give rewards to everyone according to their works (Matt. 16:27-28).

I believe Him. Christ was not a false prophet.
John 8:51KJV
51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
 

3 Resurrections

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Where I believe you go astray is in your understanding of Matthew 16:28. In that verse Jesus was NOT telling them that some of them standing there would not die before He came in glory with His angels.
LOL, You are so wrong...that was exactly what Christ was telling His disciples. You are grasping at straws to avoid the obvious nature of Christ's statement.

The Mount of Transfiguration was NOT Christ "coming in His kingdom" with the angels, and dispensing rewards to everyone according to their works. Chapter break or not, the Mount of Transfiguration was not Christ's coming return, since He had never left the planet yet as of that point. It wasn't even a preview, since Christ's return would be in His resurrected body, and that was certainly not what Christ was displaying on the Mount of Transfiguration. Moses and Elijah were discussing Christ's coming death at Jerusalem on that occasion - not His return.

That event so clearly has not yet happened. I believe it is INSANE to think otherwise. Have you stood before Christ to give an account of yourself yet? No. I haven't, either. So, judgment day has not yet come because it involves the judgment of all people from all time.
You are making the mistaken assumption that there was to be ONLY ONE judgment of the dead simultaneously for everyone from creation forward unto the culmination of fallen man's history on this planet. This is not true. When Christ promised to return in that first-century generation before some of those He personally had spoken to had died, of course that did not yet include you and me and everyone else who has died or will die in the faith after that point. We will be participating in yet another bodily resurrection event and a final judgment in our future.

As you know, it is stated that "we must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ", eventually, but it is not required by any scripture text whatever that God must do this simultaneously for everyone without exception at one occasion only. In fact, the scriptures make references to more than just one "harvest" of bodily resurrected saints. Why do you think scripture speaks of "the FIRST resurrection" anyway? That is because there are more than just one bodily resurrection event. There are, in fact, THREE of them, just as there were THREE required harvest feast celebrations back in OT Israel, designed to be a symbol of the THREE separate bodily resurrection events for the saints from the dust of the grave. Two of those bodily resurrection events have already occurred, in AD 33, and AD 70. We are waiting for the last bodily resurrection event coming in our distant future. And it will not be soon.
 

3 Resurrections

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John 8:51KJV
51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
This is better translated, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying death in no wise will he see forever". Christ repeated this in John 11:26 to Martha, just before He raised Lazarus from the tomb. "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me in no wise shall die forever."

The rule in scripture is that all mankind is appointed to physically die the one time (Heb. 9:27). However, for the child of God who possesses eternal life of the soul, this death of their physical body is not a permanent status, since our physical body's remains are to be changed into the immortal and incorruptible in the bodily-resurrection process so that we cannot ever physically die again.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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LOL, You are so wrong...that was exactly what Christ was telling His disciples. You are grasping at straws to avoid the obvious nature of Christ's statement.
LOL. As wrong as you wrongly think I am, I feel just as much that you are wrong. To think that Jesus has already come in glory with His angels is as wrong as wrong can be. When He comes in glory with His angels all people will have to give an account of themselves to Him at that point. He will not do that until the end of this temporal age when eternity is ushered in.

The Mount of Transfiguration was NOT Christ "coming in His kingdom" with the angels, and dispensing rewards to everyone according to their works.
That isn't what I'm saying. Are you even trying to understand what I said? I didn't say He came in glory with His angels at the mount of transfiguration. Try a bit harder to read what I'm actually saying. I'm saying he gave Peter, James and John a preview or taste of His future coming in glory with His angels. And that is exactly what He did and that is what He was talking about in Matthew 16:28.

Chapter break or not, the Mount of Transfiguration was not Christ's coming return, since He had never left the planet yet as of that point.
LOL!!! You didn't even read everything I said, did you. I did NOT say that was His return in glory with His angels. I very clearly said it was a PREVIEW or TASTE of that and not His coming in glory with His angels itself.

He gave Peter, James and John a preview or taste of His coming in glory by appearing to them in glory like He will appear in the future when He comes with His angels. That is what He was talking about in Matthew 16:28. In verse 27 He said what He was going to eventually do and then in verse 28 He said He was going to show some who were standing there what that was going to be like by appearing to some (Peter, James and John) in His true power and glory.

What you are not even considering here is that He said no one knows the day or hour of His coming in glory with His angels, so how could He say that He would come in glory with His angels before some standing there died? He would not have known that He would come before that because even He didn't know the day or hour of His coming. It makes far more sense that He was saying He would give some standing there a glimpse of how He will appear at His future coming in glory with His angels.

It wasn't even a preview, since Christ's return would be in His resurrected body, and that was certainly not what Christ was displaying on the Mount of Transfiguration. Moses and Elijah were discussing Christ's coming death at Jerusalem on that occasion - not His return.
You spent an entire post arguing with a straw man. You didn't carefully read what I said. You apparently read maybe one sentence and then jumped to all kinds of conclusions without reading beyond that. Again, I am NOT saying the transfiguration was His coming in glory with His angels itself, I'm merely saying He gave some (Peter, James and John) are preview or taste of it at His transfiguration and I believe that is what Matthew 16:28 (but not Matthew 16:27) is about.

You are making the mistaken assumption that there was to be ONLY ONE judgment of the dead simultaneously for everyone from creation forward unto the culmination of fallen man's history on this planet.
That isn't a mistake at all. That is exactly what is portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46. Why in the world would God not judge all people at once? There is no reason and no point to having multiple judgment days. It's complete nonsense.

This is not true. When Christ promised to return in that first-century generation before some of those He personally had spoken to had died, of course that did not yet include you and me and everyone else who has died or will die in the faith after that point. We will be participating in yet another bodily resurrection event and a final judgment in our future.
LOL. Yet another bodily resurrection. What is the difference between you and futurists who also think there are multiple mass bodily resurrection events? It's all nonsense! Jesus very clearly said that ALL who are in the graves will be resurrected in the same hour (John 5:28-29). He knew nothing of multiple mass bodily resurrections of believers as both futurists and preterists falsely teach.

As you know, it is stated that "we must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ", eventually, but it is not required by any scripture text whatever that God must do this simultaneously for everyone without exception at one occasion only.
LOL! That is exactly what is described in Matthew 25:31-46! You have no scriptural support for your doctrine whatsoever. It blatantly contradicts scripture like John 5:28-29 and Matthew 25:31-46.

In fact, the scriptures make references to more than just one "harvest" of bodily resurrected saints.
What are you talking about? I'm not going to take your word for anything. Show me the scripture.

Why do you think scripture speaks of "the FIRST resurrection" anyway?
Because Christ's resurrection itself was the first resurrection (Acts 26:23). All believers spiritually have part in His resurrection. Next in order of bodily resurrections unto bodily immortality is the resurrection of those who belong to Christ, as Paul taught here:

1 Corinthians 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

As Paul said, Christ Himself is the firstfruits (would've been better translated as firstfruit to avoid confusion) of those who have fallen asleep (physically/bodily died). The order of bodily resurrections unto bodily immortality that Paul gives is Christ's first and "then, when he comes, those who belong to him". ALL of those who belong to Him. And that's it. He doesn't mention any other bodily resurrection of believers because there are none! You make that up in your imagination. It's not taught in scripture. You base your doctrine on highly debatable passages within a highly symbolic book instead of on straightforward scripture like John 5:28-29 and 1 Corinthians 15:22-23.

That is because there are more than just one bodily resurrection event. There are, in fact, THREE of them, just as there were THREE required harvest feast celebrations back in OT Israel, designed to be a symbol of the THREE separate bodily resurrection events for the saints from the dust of the grave. Two of those bodily resurrection events have already occurred, in AD 33, and AD 70. We are waiting for the last bodily resurrection event coming in our distant future. And it will not be soon.
That is all complete, utter nonsense that is not taught in scripture anywhere. You have a doctrine all to yourself. You're yet another lone wolf who thinks he alone has the understanding of what scripture teaches about bodily resurrections. Well, aren't you special to be the only one in the world to have that understanding. I didn't realize that God revealed truth like that to only one person.
 
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Ronald Nolette

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IOW, you have zero to actually address anything I said. You completely ignored the fact that Jesus has to come again first, including in Thomas' case, before He can receive anyone to Himself, including Thomas.
Well if you ignore the rapture, which is not the second coming of Jesus but His descent into the atmosphere to gather the church to Himself, then you are correct. But since there is a rapture before His second coming to earth, you are mistaken.
It either means this, thus exactly what it says---First He has to go and prepare a place for us, including Thomas. After He does this He then will come again. Can't come again unless He already came earlier but then left. And when He comes again, it is at that time that He receives us unto Himself including Thomas, that where He is, there we may be also, including Thomas.

The Rapture is not teh second coming of jesus, it is a coming, but it is not THE coming when Jesus physically returns to earth. We know He descends to the atmosphere as written in Thess. to receive the church, because we are in heaven in REv. 19 to take part in our wedding ceremony to Jesus.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Yes, but according to Paul He will receive us to Himself "in the air", not in heaven. Nothing specifically says He then turns back around and takes us to heaven with Him. I believe He will be bringing heaven to us in the form of the new heaven.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

King James Version

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So you think we may ever stay in the air then?
That is not what it says. Instead, it says the bride is ready for the marriage. Not that the marriage has already taken place.

Revelation 19:Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

It wouldn't say "his wife hath made herself ready" if the marriage already took place at this point. What this verse is saying is that the time of the marriage will have come at that point and the bride has made herself ready for it.
the marriage of the Lamb is come! The bride is ready and now the groom marries His bride. The point is it takes place in heaven before Jesus returns.
 

WPM

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Well if you ignore the rapture, which is not the second coming of Jesus but His descent into the atmosphere to gather the church to Himself, then you are correct. But since there is a rapture before His second coming to earth, you are mistaken.


The Rapture is not teh second coming of jesus, it is a coming, but it is not THE coming when Jesus physically returns to earth. We know He descends to the atmosphere as written in Thess. to receive the church, because we are in heaven in REv. 19 to take part in our wedding ceremony to Jesus.
I see a pattern with Pretribs, because they have no supporting Scripture, Pretribbers imagine that stating a theory is proving a fact. It is not. This is what you have been taught, not what Scripture teaches. That why you have no prooftexts.
 
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MA2444

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Edit: Adding a note at the beginning of this post for clarification, since it seems that a few people are not understanding the point I'm making in this thread. The point of this thread is not to try to say that 1st Corinthians 15:51-52 does not happen at generally the same time as the rapture (being gathered and caught up to Christ), as if 1 Thess 4:14-17 and 1 Cor 15:50-54 are completely different events that happen at entirely different times. That is not what I believe. I believe those passages describe things that will happen at generally the same time (with maybe only a moment of time between the dead in Christ being resurrected, then all being changed, and then all being caught up) during the same one event, the second coming of Christ. Instead, the point of the thread is to determine what part of the things that will occur on that day was a mystery as of the time Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 15:50-54.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The word "rapture" simply means to be snatched or caught up. In this case it refers to believers being caught up to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess 4:14-17). Is that the mystery that Paul is referencing here as many pre-trib adherents believe? Is that what he said was a mystery, being caught up to meet the Lord in the air? No. He specifically said that the mystery was that everyone's bodies will be changed and made incorruptible and immortal at the last trumpet. That's it. Nothing about the rapture, which specifically refers to our being caught up to meet the Lord in the air, as being a mystery. So, why do people try to say that the rapture was a mystery before Paul wrote 1st Corinthians when Paul himself didn't say that was a mystery?

Was the rapture a mystery before Paul wrote his first letter to the Corinthians? No, it wasn't. He had already written about the rapture in 1st Thessalonians which was written somewhere between 49-51 AD, which means he wrote that before 1st Corinthians was written (somewhere between 53-55 AD). So, the rapture itself (being caught up to meet the Lord in the air) was not a mystery when 1st Corinthians 15:51-54 was written. Paul explicitly said what the mystery was, which was that we (our bodies) will all be changed at the last trumpet. That's it.

Just to be clear, I am not saying that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 won't happen at the same time. That is not my point. They will happen at the same time. They both are speaking of things that will happen on the day of Christ's second coming. And, apparently, if how quickly our bodies will be changed (in a moment) is any indication, it will all happen quickly (the resurrection of the dead in Christ, the change of our bodies and the catching up to meet the Lord in the air).

Paul did a lot of talking about the rapture. It was a mystery before and then behold I show you a mystery. The OT doesnt talk about the rapture directly (because it was a mystery) but it alludes to the rapture all over the place in the OT.

Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel and perhaps ezekial too? It's still sort of mystery to many judging by all the threads on it. But that's ok because it is the glory of God to conceal a matter and the honor of Kings to search the matter out.

Isaiah 26:19-21 Daniel 9 Daniel 7 Daniel 11

There's only 12 chapters in the entire book of Daniel so it's fairly short study. Mostly chapters 8-12 when the Angel comes and interprets Daniels dreams & visions for him, then tells him seal this up until the end times...
 

3 Resurrections

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When He comes in glory with His angels all people will have to give an account of themselves to Him at that point. He will not do that until the end of this temporal age when eternity is ushered in.
You are forgetting that Paul wrote to his first-century readers, saying, "...they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come." (1 Cor. 10:11).

Hebrews 9:26 said the same thing about those first century days. "But NOW once in the consummation of the ages hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself." This was the same thing that Peter wrote about in 1 Peter 4:7, saying "the END of all things is at hand" for the time in which Peter was writing.

There was an "end of the ages" and an "end of all things" that was then taking place in the first century. Other ages followed that end, as Paul also wrote about "the ages that are coming" in Ephesians 2:7, but this did not detract from the fact that God was bringing a conclusion to a set of ages back then in the first century. And that particular end of those ages would include Christ's second coming return and a bodily resurrection and judgment.

I'm saying he gave Peter, James and John a preview or taste of His future coming in glory with His angels. And that is exactly what He did and that is what He was talking about in Matthew 16:28.
No, that is NOT what Matthew 16:28 wrote. You are misquoting Christ. He did NOT say He was going to give a so-called "preview" of His future return before some of those He personally spoke to had died. He said He would actually return in the glory of His Father with His angels, to give rewards to all according to their works before some of them had died. There is a world of difference between your made-up "preview", and His stated purpose of actually returning before some of them had died. You were not there in the first century to be an eye-witness of what happened or did not happen in that generation. So your denial that Christ fulfilled His promised return back in the first century is useless.
What you are not even considering here is that He said no one knows the day or hour of His coming in glory with His angels, so how could He say that He would come in glory with His angels before some standing there died? He would not have known that He would come before that because even He didn't know the day or hour of His coming. It makes far more sense that He was saying He would give some standing there a glimpse of how He will appear at His future coming in glory with His angels.
For Christ to have put a limit on His own knowledge of the day and hour of His return did not mean He had no knowledge at all of the approximate season for it. Indeed, He scolded the Pharisees for not being able to discern the times surrounding His return, even though they could read the skies to predict the weather. Even the devils knew the approximate time of their own judgment, and asked Christ if He had come "before the time" to punish them.

Christ in the Olivet Discourse told the disciples the particular signs that would occur before His first-century coming return. He gave the entire list of ominous events in Luke 21:8-35, and then announced to the disciples that they were to "watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape ALL these things that are ABOUT TO come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." And that INCLUDED His own coming return at the end of the list of ALL things that were "ABOUT TO come to pass". Just as soon as Christ's final ascension in Acts 1, the persecution of the early church believers would begin. Matthew 24:8's record of the Olivet Discourse called the beginning of all these ominous events "the beginning of sorrows" for the disciples in that first-century generation.

No, Christ was NOT ignorant of the season for His first-century coming return that would come "immediately after the tribulation of those days", since He knew about the escalating series of persecutions and tribulations that immediately preceded His return.

Christ was not as clueless as you suppose He was.
Because Christ's resurrection itself was the first resurrection (Acts 26:23).
Yes, that WAS the "First resurrection" of "Christ the First-fruits". But don't forget those whom Christ brought out of the grave on that same day - the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints. There were 144,000 of those "First-fruits" saints who participated in that same "First resurrection" event the same day as Christ had arisen from the dead. They shared Christ's same title of being the "First-fruits" because they shared the same "First resurrection" event in AD 33.
The order of bodily resurrections unto bodily immortality that Paul gives is Christ's first and "then, when he comes, those who belong to him". ALL of those who belong to Him.
Paul was speaking about ALL of the saints who had died up to that point in time in that first century when Christ had promised to return. These would compose the next, second group resurrection event. But human history would continue to flow forward in "the ages that are coming" following that first century "consummation of the ages" that Paul and Peter wrote about.

Why are you so irate about Christ staging three resurrection events over time instead of your assumed once-and-done resurrection event, which scripture does not even teach? Why should it bother you that all those saints who had died up until Christ's first-century return should already be "raptured" and enjoying resurrected eternal life with God in heaven before you yourself get to arrive there? That's a rather myopic view, and a self-centered one at that. The whole of human history and prophetic scripture does not revolve around our own current generation. You and I get to join those already-resurrected and raptured saints in the next resurrection event coming in our future.

James 5:7-9 wrote about the coming of the Lord, which at that time had already "drawn near", with "the judge standing before the door" at that time. James urged the believers to be patient, comparing Christ's coming to a "husbandman" who waited with great patience until he received both the "early" and the "latter" rain. This was harvest language that any Jew understood - that there were three main harvests in Israel: the barley harvest at Passover, the wheat harvest at Pentecost, and the "feast of ingathering" in the 7th month at the end of the agricultural year. The rainy seasons of the "early" and "latter" rain formed the foundation for all the OT harvest feast celebrations. God was going to resurrect and "harvest" the bodies of His saints out of the dust of the grave at the same time of year when each of those 3 agricultural harvest feast festivals were scheduled.

The Passover "First resurrection" occurred for all the "First-fruits" in AD 33 with Christ and the Matt. 27:52-53 saints resurrected on that same day.
The Pentecost second group resurrection event occurred, as Christ promised for that first-century generation, in AD 70 on that year's Pentecost day (Daniel's 1,335th day).
The Feast of Tabernacles' third group resurrection is in our future, at the culmination of fallen mankind's history on this planet.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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1 Thessalonians 4:15-17​

King James Version​

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So you think we may ever stay in the air then?
LOL. Of course not. Are you aware that I'm an amillennialist? I'm pretty sure I've indicated that to you before, but I don't know if you recall that or not. So, what I believe will happen at His return is that we will be caught up to Him in the air and then He will proceed to take "vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:". Since we will have immortal bodies at that point, it doesn't leave any mortals to populate the earth as premils like yourself believe.

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

the marriage of the Lamb is come! The bride is ready and now the groom marries His bride. The point is it takes place in heaven before Jesus returns.
But, that is not described in scripture anywhere. In Revelation 19 it describes the time of the marriage having come and the bride being ready for the marriage and that is followed by a depiction of the second coming of Christ where He comes with His armies and defeats all of His enemies. How does what is described there have anything to do with a pre-trib rapture?