What is the one true Church?

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Marymog

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Why do you keep repeating the same lie? The Catholic Church was not founded by Christ. Again, there is no mention of the Catholic church (which is actually a denomination) in the Bible. I don't know who named your denomination, but it was not Jesus or any of the apostles or other disciples of Jesus. Your claim is fiction!
Hey Jim,

Christian History Lesson Time:

The earliest Christian historical document we have in which “Catholic” is used to label The Church is in a letter from Ignatius of Antioch (a student of the Apostle John), who wrote around A.D. 107-110. Logically he was not the first to use the word Catholic to describe The Church so it is VERY possible the term was used well before that time—which is to say, possibly in the time of the apostles.

What historical documentation do you have that first mentions your denomination Jim?

Curious Mary
 

Jim B

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Got it Jim. It seems you are a pacifist.

If you were alive during any of the Crusades (they lasted from the 11th thru 13th century) would you have allowed the Muslims to take over all Christian holy sites, your churches, torture/kill your neighbors/family, forced conversions etc and allowed them to continue their wars of expansion by taking over the entire world? Or would have you fought back????????????

I didn't ignore anything. We are talking about the Crusades. A topic YOU mentioned. If you would like to talk about something other than the Crusades....let me know. How can I ignore something we are not talking about???

Since YOU brought it up: What YOU ignored is the FACT that some Protestants "murdered all who wouldn't submit to them". Soooooooo why did you only mention The Church doing that?

Keeping it real....Mary
The Bible -- the very words of God, says "You shall not kill". So why do you think it's okay to do so?

And you're wallowing in mythology about the crusades (plural).

Let's get past the crusades and look at the mass murder of indigenous peoples by the Catholic armies. They were not seizing any holy sites or taking over the entire world. (LOL!!!) They were living on lands that the church wanted to seize, so they killed all who resisted them. And those they didn't kill they "Christianized" them by destroying their cultures and identity.

And more recently, where I live, the diocese went bankrupt settling the lawsuit brought against the priests for the wholesale sexual abuse of children.

How are you going to justify either kind of abuse?
 

Jim B

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Hey Jim,

Christian History Lesson Time:

The earliest Christian historical document we have in which “Catholic” is used to label The Church is in a letter from Ignatius of Antioch (a student of the Apostle John), who wrote around A.D. 107-110. Logically he was not the first to use the word Catholic to describe The Church so it is VERY possible the term was used well before that time—which is to say, possibly in the time of the apostles.

What historical documentation do you have that first mentions your denomination Jim?

Curious Mary
The historical documentation that I have is called "The New Testament".

And your claiming that " it is VERY possible the term was used well before that time" is nonsense. There is no mention of the Catholic denomination in the Bible, which is the only documentation that counts.
 

Marymog

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They are not chosen by the Catholic church but by God. Saints are God's true people, people who are spiritually re-born by choice and repentance.
Hey Pearl,

The Catholic Church does recognize some people as "saints" but here is what The Church teaches:

Saints are persons in heaven (officially canonized or not), who lived heroically virtuous lives, offered their life for others, or were martyred for the faith, and who are worthy of imitation.

So, in a sense, you are right. Saints are not chosen by The Church. The person CHOOSES to be a Saint. Either you live the life of a saint, or you don't. No where at no point does the bible say that "Saints are God's true people, people who are spiritually re-born by choice and repentance". Becoming "re-born by choice and repentance" is the first step. There are quite a few more steps after that to become someone "worthy of imitation".

Respectfully, Mary
 

Marymog

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The historical documentation that I have is called "The New Testament".
OK.....so I have two questions for you. Both from the NT:

The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

What is your answer?

Curious Mary
 

Marymog

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And your claiming that " it is VERY possible the term was used well before that time" is nonsense. There is no mention of the Catholic denomination in the Bible, which is the only documentation that counts.
Lol...Right! Ignatious made up that word in that letter and it was NEVER used before that to describe The Church. OK....I will go with that logic.

So, a student of an Apostle called MY church The Catholic Church around 110 AD. Who named YOUR denomination and when?

Curious Mary
 

Jim B

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Why do Catholics like to set themselves apart from the rest of the body of Christ? One word: pride! It has been drummed into people's heads that somehow that denomination is special, but there is no Biblical justification for that boast.

The body of Christ is one body, with one head: Jesus Christ. To claim otherwise is to revert to the Old Testament: a chosen people, separate from all others, a separate priesthood with a presiding chief priest, prescribed penalties for sins committed, worship of idols, etc.
 

Marymog

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The Bible -- the very words of God, says "You shall not kill". So why do you think it's okay to do so?
Hey Jim,

It is not ok to murder someone jim. Murdering and self-defense are two different things Jim. You need a better teacher. Here is what your Protestant men teach and apparently haven't taught you yet:


 

Jim B

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OK.....so I have two questions for you. Both from the NT:

The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

What is your answer?

Curious Mary
Why are you changing the subject?
 

Marymog

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And you're wallowing in mythology about the crusades (plural).

Let's get past the crusades and look at the mass murder of indigenous peoples by the Catholic armies. They were not seizing any holy sites or taking over the entire world. (LOL!!!) They were living on lands that the church wanted to seize, so they killed all who resisted them. And those they didn't kill they "Christianized" them by destroying their cultures and identity.

And more recently, where I live, the diocese went bankrupt settling the lawsuit brought against the priests for the wholesale sexual abuse of children.

How are you going to justify either kind of abuse?
Oh, I see. Now that I destroyed your false teachings/beliefs on the Crusade and showed how bankrupt you are on the subject....you want to change the subject?

You crack me up Jim.
 

Jim B

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Hey Jim,

It is not ok to murder someone jim. Murdering and self-defense are two different things Jim. You need a better teacher. Here is what your Protestant men teach and apparently haven't taught you yet:


LOL!!! You're changing the subject yet again!
 

Jim B

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Oh, I see. Now that I destroyed your false teachings/beliefs on the Crusade and showed how bankrupt you are on the subject....you want to change the subject?

You crack me up Jim.
Okay, I'm putting you on "ignore". You are so consumed by Catholicism that you have become irrational.
 

Marymog

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Why are you changing the subject?
The subject is you only adhere to or read one historical Christian document. The NT! So I presented a question to you from that historical document. Sooooo how is that changing the subject?

If you have read that historical document, then you have read those questions. Have EVER tried to answer or contemplated on those two questions that Paul asked?

Curious Mary
 

Marymog

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Okay, I'm putting you on "ignore". You are so consumed by Catholicism that you have become irrational.
Translation: I can't defend what I believe when asked tough questions about what I believe.
 

Grailhunter

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The Pope's call for a crusade in Middle East to take back Jerusalem.
On November 27, 1095, Pope Urban II makes perhaps the most influential speech of the Middle Ages, giving rise to the Crusades by calling all Christians in Europe to war against Muslims in order to reclaim the Holy Land, with a cry of “Deus vult!” or “God wills it!”

At the Council of Clermont, in France, at which several hundred clerics and noblemen gathered, Urban delivered a rousing speech summoning rich and poor alike to stop their in-fighting and embark on a righteous war to help their fellow Christians in the East and take back Jerusalem. Urban denigrated the Muslims, maybe
exaggerating stories of their anti-Christian acts, and promised absolution and remission of sins for all who died in the service of Christ.

Pope Urban II at the Council of Clermont....in France.

Most beloved brethren: Urged by necessity, I, Urban, by the permission of God chief bishop and prelate over the whole world, have come into these parts as an ambassador with a divine admonition to you, the servants of God. I hoped to find you as faithful and as zealous in the service of God as I had supposed you to be. But if there is in you any deformity or crookedness contrary to God's law, with divine help I will do my best to remove it. For God has put you as stewards over his family to minister to it. Happy indeed will you be if he finds you faithful in your stewardship. You are called shepherds; see that you do not act as hirelings. But be true shepherds, with your crooks always in your hands. Do not go to sleep, but guard on all sides the flock committed to you. For if through your carelessness or negligence a wolf carries away one of your sheep, you will surely lose the reward laid up for you with God. And after you have been bitterly scourged with remorse for your faults-, you will be fiercely overwhelmed in hell, the abode of death. For according to the gospel you are the salt of the earth [Matthew 5:13 ]. But if you fall short in your duty, how, it may be asked, can it be salted? O how great the need of salting! It is indeed necessary for you to correct with the salt of wisdom this foolish people which is so devoted to the pleasures of this -world, lest the Lord, when He may wish to speak to them, find them putrefied by their sins unsalted and stinking. For if He, shall find worms, that is, sins, In them, because you have been negligent in your duty, He will command them as worthless to be thrown into the abyss of unclean things. And because you cannot restore to Him His great loss, He will surely condemn you and drive you from His loving presence. But the man who applies this salt should be prudent, provident, modest, learned, peaceable, watchful, pious, just, equitable, and pure. For how can the ignorant teach others? How can the licentious make others modest? And how can the impure make others pure? If anyone hates peace, how can he make others peaceable ? Or if anyone has soiled his hands with baseness, how can he cleanse the impurities of another? We read also that if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into the ditch [Matthew 15:14 ]. But first correct yourselves, in order that, free from blame , you may be able to correct those who are subject to you. If you wish to be the friends of God, gladly do the things which you know will please Him. You must especially let all matters that pertain to the church be controlled by the law of the church. And be careful that simony does not take root among you, lest both those who buy and those who sell [church offices] be beaten with the scourges of the Lord through narrow streets and driven into the place of destruction and confusion. Keep the church and the clergy in all its grades entirely free from the secular power. See that the tithes that belong to God are faithfully paid from all the produce of the land; let them not be sold or withheld. If anyone seizes a bishop let him be treated as an outlaw. If anyone seizes or robs monks, or clergymen, or nuns, or their servants, or pilgrims, or merchants, let him be anathema [that is, cursed]. Let robbers and incendiaries and all their accomplices be expelled from the church and anathematized. If a man who does not give a part of his goods as alms is punished with the damnation of hell, how should he be punished who robs another of his goods? For thus it happened to the rich man in the gospel [Luke 16:19 ]; he was not punished because he had stolen the goods of another, but because he had not used well the things which were his.

"You have seen for a long time the great disorder in the world caused by these crimes. It is so bad in some of your provinces, I am told, and you are so weak in the administration of justice, that one can hardly go along the road by day or night without being attacked by robbers; and whether at home or abroad one is in danger of being despoiled either by force or fraud. Therefore it is necessary to reenact the truce, as it is commonly called, which was proclaimed a long time ago by our holy fathers. I exhort and demand that you, each, try hard to have the truce kept in your diocese. And if anyone shall be led by his cupidity or arrogance to break this truce, by the authority of God and with the sanction of this council he shall be anathematized."

After these and various other matters had been attended to, all who were present, clergy and people, gave thanks to God and agreed to the pope's proposition. They all faithfully promised to keep the decrees. Then the pope said that in another part of the world Christianity was suffering from a state of affairs that was worse than the one just mentioned. He continued:

"Although, O sons of God, you have promised more firmly than ever to keep the peace among yourselves and to preserve the rights of the church, there remains still an important work for you to do. Freshly quickened by the divine correction, you must apply the strength of your righteousness to another matter which concerns you as well as God. For your brethren who live in the east are in urgent need of your help, and you must hasten to give them the aid which has often been promised them. For, as the most of you have heard, the Turks and Arabs have attacked them and have conquered the territory of Romania [the Greek empire] as far west as the shore of the Mediterranean and the Hellespont, which is called the Arm of St. George. They have occupied more and more of the lands of those Christians, and have overcome them in seven battles. They have killed and captured many, and have destroyed the churches and devastated the empire. If you permit them to continue thus for awhile with impurity, the faithful of God will be much more widely attacked by them. On this account I, or rather the Lord, beseech you as Christ's heralds to publish this everywhere and to persuade all people of whatever rank, foot-soldiers and knights, poor and rich, to carry aid promptly to those Christians and to destroy that vile race from the lands of our friends. I say this to those who are present, it meant also for those who are absent. Moreover, Christ commands it.

"All who die by the way, whether by land or by sea, or in battle against the pagans, shall have immediate remission of sins. This I grant them through the power of God with which I am invested. O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ! With what reproaches will the Lord overwhelm us if you do not aid those who, with us, profess the Christian religion! Let those who have been accustomed unjustly to wage private warfare against the faithful now go against the infidels and end with victory this war which should have been begun long ago. Let those who for a long time, have been robbers, now become knights. Let those who have been fighting against their brothers and relatives now fight in a proper way against the barbarians. Let those who have been serving as mercenaries for small pay now obtain the eternal reward. Let those who have been wearing themselves out in both body and soul now work for a double honor. Behold! on this side will be the sorrowful and poor, on that, the rich; on this side, the enemies of the Lord, on that, his friends. Let those who go not put off the journey, but rent their lands and collect money for their expenses; and as soon as winter is over and spring comes, let hem eagerly set out on the way with God as their guide."
 
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Illuminator

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Ah yes, the holy and peace loving Muslims never attacked pilgrims on their way to Jerusalem, and were good and righteous just like ISIS today.

4 MYTHS ABOUT THE CRUSADES < not a Catholic source.

MYTH #1: THE CRUSADES REPRESENTED AN UNPROVOKED ATTACK BY WESTERN CHRISTIANS ON THE MUSLIM WORLD.​

Nothing could be further from the truth, and even a cursory chronological review makes that clear...

MYTH #2: WESTERN CHRISTIANS WENT ON CRUSADE BECAUSE THEIR GREED LED THEM TO PLUNDER MUSLIMS IN ORDER TO GET RICH.​

Again, not true...

MYTH #3: CRUSADERS WERE A CYNICAL LOT WHO DID NOT REALLY BELIEVE THEIR OWN RELIGIOUS PROPAGANDA; RATHER, THEY HAD ULTERIOR, MATERIALISTIC MOTIVES.​

However, like the first two myths, this statement is generally untrue, and demonstrably so.

MYTH #4: THE CRUSADES TAUGHT MUSLIMS TO HATE AND ATTACK CHRISTIANS.​

Part of the answer to this myth may be found above, under Myth #1. Muslims had been attacking Christians for more than 450 years before Pope Urban declared the First Crusade. They needed no incentive to continue doing so. But there is a more complicated answer here, as well.
4 Myths about the Crusades - Intercollegiate Studies Institute
 

Grailhunter

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Ah yes, the holy and peace loving Muslims never attacked pilgrims on their way to Jerusalem, and were good and righteous just like ISIS today.

4 MYTHS ABOUT THE CRUSADES < not a Catholic source.

MYTH #1: THE CRUSADES REPRESENTED AN UNPROVOKED ATTACK BY WESTERN CHRISTIANS ON THE MUSLIM WORLD.​

Nothing could be further from the truth, and even a cursory chronological review makes that clear...

MYTH #2: WESTERN CHRISTIANS WENT ON CRUSADE BECAUSE THEIR GREED LED THEM TO PLUNDER MUSLIMS IN ORDER TO GET RICH.​

Again, not true...

MYTH #3: CRUSADERS WERE A CYNICAL LOT WHO DID NOT REALLY BELIEVE THEIR OWN RELIGIOUS PROPAGANDA; RATHER, THEY HAD ULTERIOR, MATERIALISTIC MOTIVES.​

However, like the first two myths, this statement is generally untrue, and demonstrably so.

MYTH #4: THE CRUSADES TAUGHT MUSLIMS TO HATE AND ATTACK CHRISTIANS.​

Part of the answer to this myth may be found above, under Myth #1. Muslims had been attacking Christians for more than 450 years before Pope Urban declared the First Crusade. They needed no incentive to continue doing so. But there is a more complicated answer here, as well.
4 Myths about the Crusades - Intercollegiate Studies Institute
Just to make myself clear here....
I fully support the Catholic Church's decision to take back Jerusalem.
In fact I believe they should have employed Yahweh's rules of war.....kill all that breaths and take the spoils of war and take custody of their cities.
If we would have done that we would not still be fighting them today. Which I believe is the reason for Yahweh's way of conducting wars. You do not have to just keep killing for centuries....one time and you are done.

Today Jerusalem is a mess....would God want it that way? Which is kinda what Pope Urban was getting at.
 

amigo de christo

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Got it Jim. It seems you are a pacifist.

If you were alive during any of the Crusades (they lasted from the 11th thru 13th century) would you have allowed the Muslims to take over all Christian holy sites, your churches, torture/kill your neighbors/family, forced conversions etc and allowed them to continue their wars of expansion by taking over the entire world? Or would have you fought back????????????

I didn't ignore anything. We are talking about the Crusades. A topic YOU mentioned. If you would like to talk about something other than the Crusades....let me know. How can I ignore something we are not talking about???

Since YOU brought it up: What YOU ignored is the FACT that some Protestants "murdered all who wouldn't submit to them". Soooooooo why did you only mention The Church doing that?

Keeping it real....Mary
Their just sites and buildings . THE CHURCH is far more than that my friend .
What they should have done was simply preached the true gospel to them .
And if they were killed for doing so , then amen . The true apostels , lots of them were killed for preaching CHRIST .
They would never have taken up arms like the RCC did .
 

amigo de christo

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Paul ,peter , stephen nor any other picked up sword to evanglize .
They simply preached the gospel.
Many lambs have through all ages . Even recently we see some
being beheaded by muslims , EVEN FORGIVING THEM . But never conforming to a lie either .
True evangelists know other religoins are false . THEIR desire is for souls to be saved not graved .
Stephen even prayed forgiveness for his killers . Ol stephen sure did light them up with the truth .
Was very direct about it too . STILL he forgave his stoners , saying LORD hold not this sin to their charge .
Paul would not even let a jailor kill himself . Ponder on that .
HOW easy it could have been for them to just have shut up and let him kill himself and then sneak out .
BUT NOT EVEN THEN . Their desire was FOR SOULS to be saved . AND the jailor ended up saved too .
Came to saving faith in CHRIST . Yep .