What is the one true Church?

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BreadOfLife

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Do you think tombstones or grave marks represent a God to anybody?
Do you think they are worshiping God kneeling at tombstones.....that does not mean they are not praying....
Again it not the same thing....I don't know if it would be the same thing if you put the grave and the markers in a church.
Either way I was not criticizing the Catholics for kneeling in front of the statures....I explained that. I am just saying what it looked like to Protestants.
According to YOU and most Protestants, you read the Commandment as having ZERO tolerance for bowing or kneeling. This is the stringent rule you hold against Catholics - but you won't do the same for Protestants.

Remember - it says: "You shall not bow down to them or worship them"
This goes for AANY graven image.

If it's okay for Protestants - then it's okay for
Catholics.
Otherwise, you're all hypocrites . . .
 
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Grailhunter

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According to YOU and most Protestants, you read the Commandment as having ZERO tolerance for bowing or kneeling.
1. As I explained, the opinion of Christians vary on this.
2. As far as the Israelites that lived in that time period and lived by the Mosaic Law, as they practiced it, it was zero tolerance and absolute. Unless God told them specifically to make an image.
3. As far as Christians go, it is irrelevant because the Mosaic Law does not pertain to Christians.

The Christian effort to explain away the Mosaic Law is called Christianizing the Hebrew Bible and it has changed a lot of things.


Remember - it says: "You shall not bow down to them or worship them"
This goes for AANY graven image.
Remember and note where it says "likeness of any kind." I have them bolded for you.

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them." Exodus 20:4

"23 So watch yourselves, that you do not forget the covenant of the Lord your God which He made with you, and make for yourselves a graven image in the form of anything against which the Lord your God has commanded you. 24 For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.25 “When you become the father of children and children’s children and have remained long in the land, and act corruptly, and make an idol in the form of anything, and do that which is evil in the sight of the Lord your God so as to provoke Him to anger," Deuteronomy 4:23-25

"8 ‘You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth." Deuteronomy 5:8

If it's okay for Protestants - then it's okay for Catholics.
Otherwise, you're all hypocrites . . .
I did not say it was wrong of the Catholics to kneel in front of statures and images......putting words in my mouth again? I do not think it is wrong for Catholics to kneel in front of statues and images.

Now over a year age I gave you some lessons on Catholic manners in relation to respect for women....Do you need another lesson?
 

Illuminator

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Do you think tombstones or grave marks represent a God to anybody?
Do you think they are worshiping God kneeling at tombstones.....that does not mean they are not praying....
Again it not the same thing....I don't know if it would be the same thing if you put the grave and the markers in a church.
Either way I was not criticizing the Catholics for kneeling in front of the statures....I explained that. I am just saying what it looked like to Protestants.
I understand what you mean, what it looks like to Protestants. Many Protestants raise their hands in a gesture of praise to God. I have no problem with that. But if one who has never been in any church, they could apply the same superficial criteria of what it looks like, it looks like the congregation is worshipping the ceiling. The objection to bowing in prayer is just as ridiculous. Bowing in prayer with Bible in hand looks like they are worshipping a book. To some, all bowing is worship. Bowing is all over the place in the Bible, it does not always mean worship. The radical Calvinoid iconoclast thinks that bowing in prayer before a devotional aid is idolatry, a stupid conclusion because prayer does not stop at wood or plaster. Because prayer can't be visible, it looks like worship of wood or plaster. If a photo of the Pope bowing in prayer before a statue looks like absolute proof of idolatry, then a photo of raising hands looks like absolute proof of ceiling worship. One is as ridiculous as the other.

1679431208846.png

Proper use of religious statuary is totally biblical. Those who think otherwise don't know their Bible.

Here is a statue of John Calvin, who banned all statutes.
1679432288192.png
Makes perfect sense, doesn't it?
 
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BreadOfLife

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1. As I explained, the opinion of Christians vary on this.
2. As far as the Israelites that lived in that time period and lived by the Mosaic Law, as they practiced it, it was zero tolerance and absolute. Unless God told them specifically to make an image.
3. As far as Christians go, it is irrelevant because the Mosaic Law does not pertain to Christians.

The Christian effort to explain away the Mosaic Law is called Christianizing the Hebrew Bible and it has changed a lot of things.
No – as Christians, we are bound by the Commandments - and therein lies the issue. Is the Commandment against the MAKING of grave images – or the WORSHIP of them as gods?

It CANNOT be against the making of images because God would have been guilty of violating His own commandment – and for telling Moses to violate it.

Additionally, if it was against BOTH – then there would be an ELEVERNTH Commandment.

Remember and note where it says "likeness of any kind." I have them bolded for you.

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them." Exodus 20:4

"23 So watch yourselves, that you do not forget the covenant of the Lord your God which He made with you, and make for yourselves a graven image in the form of anything against which the Lord your God has commanded you. 24 For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.25 “When you become the father of children and children’s children and have remained long in the land, and act corruptly, and make an idol in the form of anything, and do that which is evil in the sight of the Lord your God so as to provoke Him to anger," Deuteronomy 4:23-25

"8 ‘You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth." Deuteronomy 5:8
Is a cross not a “thing” on earth?

ANYTHING
can be worshipped as an idol.

I did not say it was wrong of the Catholics to kneel in front of statures and images......putting words in my mouth again? I do not think it is wrong for Catholics to kneel in front of statues and images.

Now over a year age I gave you some lessons on Catholic manners in relation to respect for women....Do you need another lesson?
Right.
THIS is what you said –


Well we have images and statues all over the place. Protestants do not kneel in front of them and pray.”

THIS
is why I responded – because of the hypocrisy of that statement.
 

Jim B

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That was Gods ark. He condemned men bowing to graven images than can do nothing. Catholics bow to a carved image of Jesus behind the pulpit. They kiss a little piece of metal( cross) that can do nothing. Jesus is a king on a throne in heaven, he can do things.
Every Apostle was an Israelite, serving their God-YHWH(Jehovah)
It was to any spiritual teacher-do not call them Father--Why? Because they fathered nothing. God fathered all truth.
Yes God appointed them-- God gets all credit for fathering all truth, the apostles, prophets, teachers fathered 0.
Great post!
 
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Jim B

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Jesus teaches--FEW will find the road that leads off into life. He as well compared these last days to Noahs day( 99.9% minimum mislead) Luke 17:26)--about 99% minimum today.
There are approximately 2.2 billion Christians in the world today. So, according to you, that means that there are only 22 million actual believers, or only10% of Christians in the US. That is foolishness!
 

Grailhunter

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I understand what you mean, what it looks like to Protestants. Many Protestants raise their hands in a gesture of praise to God. I have no problem with that. But if one who has never been in any church, they could apply the same superficial criteria of what it looks like, it looks like the congregation is worshipping the ceiling. The objection to bowing in prayer is just as ridiculous. Bowing in prayer with Bible in hand looks like they are worshipping a book. To some, all bowing is worship. Bowing is all over the place in the Bible, it does not always mean worship. The radical Calvinoid iconoclast thinks that bowing in prayer before a devotional aid is idolatry, a stupid conclusion because prayer does not stop at wood or plaster. Because prayer can't be visible, it looks like worship of wood or plaster. If a photo of the Pope bowing in prayer before a statue looks like absolute proof of idolatry, then a photo of raising hands looks like absolute proof of ceiling worship. One is as ridiculous as the other.

View attachment 30657
I do it all....I walk around talking to Christ or Miriam so much people think I am talking to myself....my family is use to it.
The Catholics have those kneel boards that flip down, I like them.
The raising of hands in worship is biblical.
The holding the palms together and finger tips pointed up is not.
But I know this hand gesture for pray is approved.....You are going to like this.
When I saw Miriam she did it for a moment.

And this is something the Protestants cannot understand.
Whether it is Christ or Miriam in the visitations that occurred over the centuries.....some of the things they said and did is where the Catholics get some of their beliefs.
 

Grailhunter

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No – as Christians, we are bound by the Commandments - and therein lies the issue. Is the Commandment against the MAKING of grave images – or the WORSHIP of them as gods?

It CANNOT be against the making of images because God would have been guilty of violating His own commandment – and for telling Moses to violate it.

Additionally, if it was against BOTH – then there would be an ELEVERNTH Commandment.

Is a cross not a “thing” on earth?

ANYTHING
can be worshipped as an idol.

Right.
THIS is what you said –


Well we have images and statues all over the place. Protestants do not kneel in front of them and pray.”

THIS
is why I responded – because of the hypocrisy of that statement.
More name calling!!! We are going to switch to teaching you manners.....again.
 

BreadOfLife

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More name calling!!! We are going to switch to teaching you manners.....again.
Where did I engage in "name-calling" in that post?
And you completely ignored the points I made?

Are you NOT able to refute them?
 

Grailhunter

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Where did I engage in "name-calling" in that post?
And you completely ignored the points I made?

Are you NOT able to refute them?
THIS is why I responded – because of the hypocrisy of that statement.
It is really irrelevant because you are not going to learn anything.....just be rude.
 

BreadOfLife

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THIS is why I responded – because of the hypocrisy of that statement.
It is really irrelevant because you are not going to learn anything.....just be rude.
That's not "name-calling". I was referring to your statement.
If I called YOU a "Hypocrite" - that that would be name-calling.

Face it - you didn't address the points I made because you CANT . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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See post 1402
Post #1402 didn't address the points I made in post #1408 - where I said:
No – as Christians, we are bound by the Commandments - and therein lies the issue. Is the Commandment against the MAKING of grave images – or the WORSHIP of them as gods?

It CANNOT be against the making of images because God would have been guilty of violating His own commandment – and for telling Moses to violate it.

Additionally, if it was against BOTH – then there would be an ELEVERNTH Commandment.

Is a cross not a “thing” on earth?
ANYTHING
can be worshipped as an idol.
 

Grailhunter

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No – as Christians, we are bound by the Commandments - and therein lies the issue
You are wrong.....Christians have two Commandments....Love God and each other. Paul explained in several ways that the Mosaic Laws do not apply. If you need a truck load of scriptures to prove that I can dump them on you.

I explained in post 1402 that the commandment was not to make any image....the stipulation was not to worship them and some of the scriptures discussed not to worship images that were already made.

It CANNOT be against the making of images because God would have been guilty of violating His own commandment – and for telling Moses to violate it.
God made the commandment to not murder and then directed the Israelites to kill all that breaths and do not forget the babies.
The Mosaic Laws did not govern God......

Is a cross not a “thing” on earth?
ANYTHING
can be worshipped as an idol.

Again Christians are not bound by the Mosaic Law we can make images....
 

Keiw

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Show me in scripture where scripture in art form is forbidden. It's not there. You've fallen for an unbiblical doctrine, leftovers from John Calvins' radical iconoclasm. Catholics don't bow to wood or plaster, we bow to who it represents. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

The prohibition on graven images had to do solely with the worship of false gods. This proves you read into scripture what isn't there.
You have reduced "call no man father" into a stupid slogan. Jesus was using hyperbole, a literary device He uses in other places.. He meant no one should elevate rabbis to the level of God. If you honestly think that by calling our priest "father" means he is God, it's because all the anti-Catholic garbage you've swallowed down whole has damaged your brain.




Don't read or listen, Keiw, you might get a headache. The links aren't meant for you, they are meant for people who are sincere in their inquiries. You are just looking for a fight.
I dontlook for fights, i share reality. Like this one--your religion in their pictures of Jesus show him bringing dishonor to his Fathers name with his long hair. It was forbidden for an Israelite ( 1Cor 11:14) male to have long hair. God made a special provision with the Nazarites( not Nazarenes) not to cut their hair, Samson was one. Its simple bible milk yet your religion cannot even understand simple bible milk.
 

BreadOfLife

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You are wrong.....Christians have two Commandments....Love God and each other. Paul explained in several ways that the Mosaic Laws do not apply. If you need a truck load of scriptures to prove that I can dump them on you.

I explained in post 1402 that the commandment was not to make any image....the stipulation was not to worship them and some of the scriptures discussed not to worship images that were already made.

God made the commandment to not murder and then directed the Israelites to kill all that breaths and do not forget the babies.
The Mosaic Laws did not govern God......

Again Christians are not bound by the Mosaic Law we can make images....
WRONG.

Loving God and loving your neighbor are explained in the Ten Commandments.
The first 3 are about God and the rest are about your neighbor.
 

Keiw

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Oh yes, the notorious photo showing Vatican diplomats with Nazis. It's on every hate site on the internet.

Pope Pius XI signed a concord with Germany to secure the rights of Christians in the country, because the Vatican recognized what a threat Hitler and his henchmen were to religious liberty. This was not an endorsement of the Nazi Party or its philosophy (it may be remembered that America also had treaties with Germany before the war broke out). But you don't care about that.

When Hitler went back on the deal and began abrogating the civil rights of Christians, the Vatican responded by issuing the only encyclical ever written in German (Mit Brennender Sorge or "With Burning Anxiety"), concerning the horrors of the National Socialist German state. This encyclical was smuggled into Germany (it would never have been allowed in, had the Nazis known it was coming) and read at all the parishes on the same day.

The Encyclopedia of Catholic History (by Matthew Bunson) notes: "the encyclical was a strong denunciation of Nazism, noting that the Nazis had broken several points of the concordat and were actively involved in anti-Catholic and anti-Christian programs, such as the removal of the OT [Old Testament] from schools and the promotion of the so-called German National Church. The encyclical was read from the pulpit of every German church on March 21, 1937" (p. 563).

Keiv, how do you explain away the fact that 3,000,000 Catholics, in Poland alone, were exterminated by the Nazis?
Hitler made LUTHERANISM the state religion, but nobody blames Lutherans for being Nazis.

The Nazi's LOVED Martin Luther. He was to them a great German hero who resisted the corrupting influence of non-Germanic outsiders like the Pope and the Southern European non-Aryan masses. Catholicism was to them an effeminate religion. Luther with his boldness and his support of unrestricted force (including rape, torture, mutilation, and execution) by the German Princes against the peasantry was their kind of guy. Luther was also a vituperate anti-Semite and recommended putting Jews to the sword in some of his writings. From a Nazi perspective, what's not to love?

There is a book Martin Luther: Hitler's Spiritual Ancestor by Peter F. Wiener that was published during WWII in England which is available free online which speaks about the admiration both Hitler and the Nazis had for Luther. You can read it here:

Martin Luther - Hitler's Spiritual Ancestor by Peter F. Wiener

There is further evidence of the Nazi appropriation of Luther. Consecrated in 1935, the Martin Luther Memorial Church still stands in Berlin. Originally the Church bells and altar contained the swastika, but they were later removed because of post-war law that outlaws swastikas in Germany. Nevertheless, the church still retains many of the Nazi symbols and icons, including a muscular Aryan Jesus, Iron cross chandeliers, statues of Nazi stormtroopers, and a bust of Adolf Hitler. During the 30s, Nazi party members made up two thirds of the church attendance, where they also baptized their children.



The above picture from the church shows Nazi Soldiers and Aryan women surrounding a muscular Aryan Christ.




And above we have Adolph Hitler's likeness carved into the baptismal font. He is holding an SS serivce cap with a death's head emblem on the brim.




And here is a Nazi Luthertag [Luther Day] Commemorative Badge struck for Germany's Martin Luther Day on 10th November 1933. Strictly speaking not a Nazi award but, nevertheless, it was issued after Hitler's rise to power. Broad segments of the Nazi Party participated in Luther Day ceremonies across Germany every year.

Here are some quotations from Nazis about Luther especially highlighting his antipathy for Jews:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/luther.htm

Luther was openly praised by Hitler in Mein Kampf. He referred to Martin Luther as a great warrior, a true statesmen, and a great reformer, alongside Richard Wagner and Frederick the Great. Here are some statements in this book about the Jews:

http://www1.yadvashem.org/about_holocaust/documents/part1/doc4.html

Keiw has no beef with Lutherans, just Catholics because of the brain damage caused by anti-Catholic hate propaganda.
Any religion that throws Jesus away to stand on both sides of wars of hatred do not belong to Jesus.
 

Keiw

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Oh yes, the notorious photo showing Vatican diplomats with Nazis. It's on every hate site on the internet.

Pope Pius XI signed a concord with Germany to secure the rights of Christians in the country, because the Vatican recognized what a threat Hitler and his henchmen were to religious liberty. This was not an endorsement of the Nazi Party or its philosophy (it may be remembered that America also had treaties with Germany before the war broke out). But you don't care about that.

When Hitler went back on the deal and began abrogating the civil rights of Christians, the Vatican responded by issuing the only encyclical ever written in German (Mit Brennender Sorge or "With Burning Anxiety"), concerning the horrors of the National Socialist German state. This encyclical was smuggled into Germany (it would never have been allowed in, had the Nazis known it was coming) and read at all the parishes on the same day.

The Encyclopedia of Catholic History (by Matthew Bunson) notes: "the encyclical was a strong denunciation of Nazism, noting that the Nazis had broken several points of the concordat and were actively involved in anti-Catholic and anti-Christian programs, such as the removal of the OT [Old Testament] from schools and the promotion of the so-called German National Church. The encyclical was read from the pulpit of every German church on March 21, 1937" (p. 563).

Keiv, how do you explain away the fact that 3,000,000 Catholics, in Poland alone, were exterminated by the Nazis?
Hitler made LUTHERANISM the state religion, but nobody blames Lutherans for being Nazis.

The Nazi's LOVED Martin Luther. He was to them a great German hero who resisted the corrupting influence of non-Germanic outsiders like the Pope and the Southern European non-Aryan masses. Catholicism was to them an effeminate religion. Luther with his boldness and his support of unrestricted force (including rape, torture, mutilation, and execution) by the German Princes against the peasantry was their kind of guy. Luther was also a vituperate anti-Semite and recommended putting Jews to the sword in some of his writings. From a Nazi perspective, what's not to love?

There is a book Martin Luther: Hitler's Spiritual Ancestor by Peter F. Wiener that was published during WWII in England which is available free online which speaks about the admiration both Hitler and the Nazis had for Luther. You can read it here:

Martin Luther - Hitler's Spiritual Ancestor by Peter F. Wiener

There is further evidence of the Nazi appropriation of Luther. Consecrated in 1935, the Martin Luther Memorial Church still stands in Berlin. Originally the Church bells and altar contained the swastika, but they were later removed because of post-war law that outlaws swastikas in Germany. Nevertheless, the church still retains many of the Nazi symbols and icons, including a muscular Aryan Jesus, Iron cross chandeliers, statues of Nazi stormtroopers, and a bust of Adolf Hitler. During the 30s, Nazi party members made up two thirds of the church attendance, where they also baptized their children.



The above picture from the church shows Nazi Soldiers and Aryan women surrounding a muscular Aryan Christ.




And above we have Adolph Hitler's likeness carved into the baptismal font. He is holding an SS serivce cap with a death's head emblem on the brim.




And here is a Nazi Luthertag [Luther Day] Commemorative Badge struck for Germany's Martin Luther Day on 10th November 1933. Strictly speaking not a Nazi award but, nevertheless, it was issued after Hitler's rise to power. Broad segments of the Nazi Party participated in Luther Day ceremonies across Germany every year.

Here are some quotations from Nazis about Luther especially highlighting his antipathy for Jews:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/luther.htm

Luther was openly praised by Hitler in Mein Kampf. He referred to Martin Luther as a great warrior, a true statesmen, and a great reformer, alongside Richard Wagner and Frederick the Great. Here are some statements in this book about the Jews:

http://www1.yadvashem.org/about_holocaust/documents/part1/doc4.html

Keiw has no beef with Lutherans, just Catholics because of the brain damage caused by anti-Catholic hate propaganda.
Any religion that throws Jesus away to stand on both sides of wars of hatred do not belong to Jesus.
 

Keiw

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Just as I thought – more denial with ZERO substance.

Why can’t you refute ANY of the verses I provided where addressing MEN as “Father” and “Teacher” is perfectly fine with God.

What about the Bronze Serpent that God commanded Moses to create that would cure the people by gazing upon it?

Can you address the giant STATUES that Solomon placed in the Temple – which pleased God (1 Kings 6:27)??

God’s
Commandment is against the WORSHIP of images as IDOLSs – not the MAKING of images.

If it was against ALL images – your driver’s license would be an abomination to God, as would the pictures in your wallet and the framed pictures on your mantle of Aunt Winnie . . .

Finally – Catholics don’t worship ANYBODY or ANYTHING other than God.
Statues, images, crucifixes, etc. are nothing more than worship aids. In other words, Einstein – they are simple reminders of our faith – just like a cross dangling from a Protestant’s neck or outside a Protestant church building or “Fish” (Icthus) on a car bumper.

Once again – you’re talking out of your
backside . . .
The bible condemns the usage of statues, icons and graven images= 100% fact.