What Old Covenant Laws are the New Covenant believer to obey?

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Soyeong

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Phl 3:2
Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
Phl 3:3
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Phl 3:4
Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Phl 3:5
Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Phl 3:6
Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Phl 3:7
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Phl 3:8
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Phl 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Phl 3:10
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

Phl 3:17
Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
Phl 3:18
(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Phl 3:19
Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
Phl 3:20
For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Phl 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
In Matthew 7:23, Christ said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew, so knowing Christ is the goal of the law, which means that the the verses that you quoted should not be interpreted as saying that being workers of the law is dung and we just need to focus on knowing Christ instead. Rather, Paul had been obeying the law without being focused on knowing Christ, so he had been missing the whole goal of the law, and that is what he counted as dung. The correct solution to incorrectly obeying God’s law is to start obeying it correctly, not to stop obeying it.
 

Ziggy

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In Matthew 7:23, Christ said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew, so knowing Christ is the goal of the law, which means that the the verses that you quoted should not be interpreted as saying that being workers of the law is dung and we just need to focus on knowing Christ instead. Rather, Paul had been obeying the law without being focused on knowing Christ, so he had been missing the whole goal of the law, and that is what he counted as dung. The correct solution to incorrectly obeying God’s law is to start obeying it correctly, not to stop obeying it.
You do it your way and I'll do it Christ's way and maybe by some miracle we will both meet each other in heaven someday.

Whether you keep the law of Moses or not, it's your heart God is going to judge in the end.
I'm not a Jew. I wasn't born under the law of Moses. Although I believe the 10 commandments wriiten in stone are universal.
These I was raised with and these I abide by.
And as long as I love God and I love you as my neighbor and as myself.. I have fulfiiled the law.
And when there are times when I may fail, by not being polite or charitable or hospitable enough towards my enemies,
I know Jesus did. nd it is His Righteousness and His fulfilling of the law that I have faith and trust in.
My flesh is weak, but my spirit is strong. And sometimes the flesh gets in the way.

Jesus is the cure.
:D
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Soyeong

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If rebuild was Jesus intention the Greek word would have been: "aanaoikodomeo" in the perfect active indicative, not "oikodomeo" in the future active indicative as is written.
That is not necessarily the case, but rather "oikodomeo" can mean to restore, rebuild, or repair:


It is also used in that sense in Matthew 26:61.

You are using philosophy instead of the bible to define righteousness. God first makes us righteous, then we learn how to walk in what God made us to be.
For someone to have a character trait means to be a doer of that trait. That's not philosophy, but rather that is simply what it means to have a character trait. For example, if were to describe someone as being courageous, then I would be communicating that they are a doer courageous works and if they were not, then it would be inaccurately describing them. The Bible does not define righteousness in a way that is contrary to being a doer of righteous works. For example, describe God as being righteous is to communicate that He is a doer of righteous works.

YOu obviously do not know what the word fulfill means.
I cited the NAS Greek Lexicon to support show what it means to fulfill the law. The definition that it lists fits with what Jesus immediately proceeded to do next after he said he came to fulfill the law, it fits with how other verses use the phrase, and it fits with how other Jewish writings use it, so you've got no grounds for insisting that I'm the one who does not know what the word means.

YOu are defining th enew by forcing the old upon it. that is what the Judaizers tried to do in Galatians. By saying we can go back to sin is making slanderous assumptions that are totally false.
The fact that the Mosaic Law is how we know what sin is is relevant to how we should understand the NT when it instructs us to repent from our sins, so I am not forcing anything upon it. Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example, so the problem that they had with the Judaizers was not that they were teaching Gentiles how to follow Christ, but that they were wanting to require Gentiles to become circumcised in order to be saved when that was never the purpose for which God commanded circumcision. Again, it is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so the position that we are not required to obey it is the position that we are free to do what it reveals to be sin and there is nothing slanderous about saying this. Moreover, the position that we are not under the Mosaic Law is the position that we do not need salvation from doing what is reveals to be sin and the position that we do not need Jesus to have given himself to redeem us from from all lawlessness.
 
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Soyeong

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The law brought Israel to faith in Christ because no one can keep all the law. The law does not justify, redeem, or save.
Romans 10:5-8, it references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 as the word of faith hat we proclaim in regard to saying that God's law is not too difficult to for us to keep and that keeping it brings life and a blessing, but that is the word of faith that you deny. Furthermore, there are many examples of people who did keep it, such as in Joshua 22:1-3, Luke 1:5-6, Revelation 14:12, and Revelation 22:14. While we do not earn our justification as the result of having first obeying God's law, only doers of the law will be justified (Romans 2:13), and the same goes for being redeemed and saved.

It condems. It kills. Because the law is not of faith it is of works. And works can't save you.
In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, and in Romans 8:1, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ, so the Mosaic Law only condemns those who refuse to walk in obedience to it.

God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust God is by obediently trusting in His law, it is contradictory to think that we should trust God instead of His instructions, and to say that God's instructions are untrustworthy or not of faith is to deny the trustworthiness or faithfulness of God.

Our salvation requires us to live by faith in his sacrifice for us once and for all for all sin.
In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to live by faith in what he accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20).

Our obedience is based on the spirit of the law written in our hearts and minds, not the law that God gave to Israel written with pen paper.
Changing the medium upon which God's law is written from stone to our hearts does not change the content of what it instructs us to do. For example, the command to honor our parents written on stone has the same content as the command to honor our parents written on our hearts.

If you want to obey God then obey Jesus' commandments.
In John 15:10, Jesus used a parallel statement to equate his commands with those of the Father, so he was not in disagreement with the Father about which commands we should follow.

If you keep these 2 commandments
Everything commanded in the Mosaic Law is either in regard to how to love God or our neighbor, which is why Jesus said that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them, and which is why love fulfills the entire law. So the position that we should obey the greatest two commandments is also the position that we should obey all of the commandments that hang on them, for example, it would be contradictory for someone to think that we need to obey the greatest two commandments, but don't need to obey the commands against committing murder, adultery, theft, idolatry, rape, kidnapping, favoritism, and so forth.

We can't save ourselves from sin.
God's law was never given as instructions for how to save ourselves. It is contradictory to think that obediently relying on God's instructions is about us trying to save ourselves rather than about God saving us. It is contradictory to have faith in God's word made flesh instead of having faith in God's word.

This covenant is based on FAITH and not on the LAW.
In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith, which also means that the Mosaic Covenant was based on faith. In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting His law in our minds and writing it on our hearts, so the New Covenant is based on law.

All you need to do is believe in him and accept HIM as your savior. Walk in HIS Spirit which bares much fruit.. love, joy peace kindness, goodness, longsuffering, mercy, peace...
The way to believe in him and accept him is not by refusing to obey God's instructions for how to do that. We can't accept Jesus as our Savior from sin by refusing to repent from doing what God has revealed to be sin. In Romans 8:4-7 those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to His law, and in Galatians 5:19-23, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against God's law while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it.

The Old law is gone it's been abolished
Jesus specifically said that he came not to abolish the law (Matthew 5:17) and Paul confirmed that our faith does not abolish it, but rather our faith upholds it (Romans 3:31), yet you seek to abolish it rather than uphold it by faith.

The reason why God gave Israel the law of Moses was so they wouldn't follow after the other idolatrous nations from which he had taken them from. They were to be seperate.
It is still important not to follow after other idolatrous nations and to be holy to God. In 1 Corinthians 10:1-13, we are to learn from Israel's disobedience to God's law as an example of what we should avoid doing, not as an example for us to emulate. God's law is not His instructions to teach us how to become self-righteous.

I know where your coming from, I used to be where you are. Then God opened my mind and helped me understand the truth.
In Psalms 119:142, the Mosaic Law truth, if you used to be where I am, then you have turned away from the following the truth.

If you are not keeping the entire law, every jot and tittle of it, then you are guilty of ALL and condemned of ALL.
And you will never be justified by the works of the law.
You have to TRUST Jesus that he did ALL the Works for you. Your job is to believe and have faith in HIS Righteousness, not your own.
In James 2:1-11, he was speaking to people who had sinned by showing favoritism, so he was not telling them that they need to have prefers obedience because that would have already been too late and he was not discouraging them from trying to keep it, but rather he was encouraging them to repent and to do a better job of keeping it more consistently. Obedience to God's law is the way to believe in Christ's righteousness, not our own.

Your work is to bare good fruit. Your work is to Love God and Love your Neighbor. Your work is to be humble and greatful and loving and kind, even in the worst of times.
Your work is to trust God and not yourself.
We can't love God and our neighbor instead of obeying God's instructions for how to do that. Obeying God's instructions is the way to trust God, not ourselves, but rather refusing to obey God's instructions is the way to trust in ourselves.

Sin is not believing God. So Listen with your heart.
He who has ears to hear, let him hear what the spirit saith.
In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law, so the way to not believe in God is by not obeying the Mosaic Law, which is also why it is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20).

Only Christ can cleanse you, justify you, redeem you and save you. The law of Moses has been fulfilled in Christ.
He is our righteousness when we put our trust and faith in Him and the work he did for us.
Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Law by spending his ministry teaching us how to correctly obey it by word and by example, which is the way that he cleanses, justifies, redeems, and saves us.

We are to walk in Christ, not in the law of Moses.
Hugs
Christ walked in obedience to the Law of Moses, so obeying it is the way to walk in Christ.
 

Ziggy

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I am not a Jew. I am not under the Mosaic law.
I follow Christ not Moses.
The commandment God gave to Jesus was that he would lay down his life and take it up again.
And God's commandment to us is to believe in His Son.
You can follow Moses if you like, But our righteousness is only found in Christ's righteousness.
And His righteousness is his blood that covers us and makes us white as snow.
Isa 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

To walk in Christ and His characteristic trait is to walk in Grace and Truth.
This is what he brought to the world.
Moses brought the law, but Christ brought grace and truth.

Jhn 1:17
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Rom 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Grace covers both Jews and Gentiles alike. The Law was only intended for the Jews.
Jesus came to redeem the Jews under the law.


Gal 4:4
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Gal 4:5
To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

What does REDEEM mean?

  1. to redeem
    1. by payment of a price to recover from the power of another, to ransom, buy off
    2. metaph. of Christ freeing the elect from the dominion of the Mosaic Law at the price of his vicarious death

exagorázō, to buy up, i.e. ransom; figuratively, to rescue from loss (improve opportunity):—redeem.

I keep the 10 commandments in my heart, my mind, and my soul.
But the laws that were written by Moses, and not the finger of God, were given to Israel in the wilderness.
We are no longer in the wilderness but have been adopted into His Kingdom.
Through Grace and Truth. Not Law.

The only thing in the ark that was saved was the two tables of stone, the jar of manna, and Aarons rod.

These represent Our Lord and his law, and who he is. He is the bread of life, and he is the Government we live under.

Thou shalt not kill becomes Thou shalt love.
Thou shalt not steal becomes thou shalt give.
Thou shalt not lie becomes thou shalt speak the truth.
Thou shalt not commit adultery becomes loves thy wife as thyself.
Thou shalt not covet becomes be greatful for what you have been given.
Thou shalt keep the Sabbath becomes Keep Jesus abide with him always.
And if there be any other commandment they are summed up in these two:
Thou shalt love the Lord thy God withh all thy heart, mind and might. And thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
If you keep these two you have fulfilled the whole law.


Unchecked Copy Box
Mat 22:36
Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38
This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Gal 6:2
Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

I didn't say it, Jesus did.

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Eternally Grateful

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I am curious,

why do people want to obey Laws? Laws are given to the sinner, not to the righteous.

If we just seek after the things of the spirit. Learn to love as God loved (or the law of Love as I call it) we will not break any laws. And would have no need of them

A law cannot make you obey it. It can not make you righteous. All it can do is condemn you if you break it.
 
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Ziggy

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I am curious,

why do people want to obey Laws? Laws are given to the sinner, not to the righteous.

If we just seek after the things of the spirit. Learn to love as God loved (or the law of Love as I call it) we will not break any laws. And would have no need of them

A law cannot make you obey it. It can not make you righteous. All it can do is condemn you if you break it.
And yet without laws to guide you, we would all live in a lawless world.
Look around.. lawlessness is everywhere, even though there are laws.
It defines those who are lawful vs lawless.
If we abide by the law of love as you say above, then there are no earthy laws or Godly laws that can condemn us.
But the world does not walk in love or in God's laws.
To me it is a sign between those who believe (love) and those who believe not (hate)

Perhaps the laws are there to teach us how to discern between good and evil?
We are not "under" the law or "condmned" by the law, because we walk in a higher law than was given to earthy man.
Our law is spiritual which the world can not recieve.
But we see it. And I believe it is for our learning and knowing how to judge with righteous judgment.

Ye shall know them by their fruit, this is spiritual and laws can not bare fruit, only people can.
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Eternally Grateful

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And yet without laws to guide you, we would all live in a lawless world.
Look around.. lawlessness is everywhere, even though there are laws.
It defines those who are lawful vs lawless.
If we abide by the law of love as you say above, then there are no earthy laws or Godly laws that can condemn us.
But the world does not walk in love or in God's laws.
To me it is a sign between those who believe (love) and those who believe not (hate)

Perhaps the laws are there to teach us how to discern between good and evil?
We are not "under" the law or "condmned" by the law, because we walk in a higher law than was given to earthy man.
Our law is spiritual which the world can not recieve.
But we see it. And I believe it is for our learning and knowing how to judge with righteous judgment.

Ye shall know them by their fruit, this is spiritual and laws can not bare fruit, only people can.
Hugs
My case still stands, If we love as God loves. The world would need no laws.

We need laws because of criminals. A world of loving people would have no criminals.
 
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Ronald Nolette

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That is not necessarily the case, but rather "oikodomeo" can mean to restore, rebuild, or repair:
YOU ARE JUST WRONG!+-* IF YOU CANNOT GET BASIC WORD DEFINITIONS RIGHT, THERE IS NO FURTHER POINT IN DUSCUSSING.

No bible translation translated Matt. 16 as rebuild or restore.

45 English translations all say- will build because it is a future event. So what do you know that all these linguistic experts do not know?

If it meant rebuild or restore then Jesus lied for that would mean the gates of hell prevailed over the church and now Jesus has to rebuild it. that is antibiblical.

And the four times it is connoted as rebuilding, it means to build something new to replace the old!
 

Soyeong

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My case still stands, If we love as God loves. The world would need no laws.

We need laws because of criminals. A world of loving people would have no criminals.
Jesus said that because of lawlessness the love of many will grow cold (Matthew 24:12-14).
 

Soyeong

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I am curious,

why do people want to obey Laws? Laws are given to the sinner, not to the righteous.

If we just seek after the things of the spirit. Learn to love as God loved (or the law of Love as I call it) we will not break any laws. And would have no need of them

A law cannot make you obey it. It can not make you righteous. All it can do is condemn you if you break it.
The God of Israel has given laws to teach how to know, love, worship, believe in, and testify about Him, so those who want seeking after the Spirit by doing those things will follow those instructions, which were given for our own good (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13). If we learn to love as God loves us by following His law, then while we no longer taught by the law how to do that, we are nevertheless still living in accordance with what God’s law instructs. While God’s law was not given to make us righteous, it does describe the way that a righteous person lives as it describes the life of Christ.

The Psalms express an extremely positive view of obeying God’s law, such as with David repeatedly saying that he loved it and delighted in obeying it, so if we consider the Psalms to be Scripture and to therefore express a correct view of obeying God’s law, then we will share it as Paul did (Romans 7:22), while the view that it only condemns us is incompatible with the view that the psalms are Scripture. For example, in Psalms 1:1-2, blessed are those who delight in the Law of the Lord and who meditate on it day and night, so we can’t believe in the truth of these words as Scripture while not allowing them to shape our view of obeying God’s law. There is no way that you can read something like Psalms 19:7-11 or Psalms 119 and think that these verses are speaking about a law that only condemns us. Not even earthly fathers give rules to their children with the goal of condemning them, so God knows how to give better laws than that.
 

Eternally Grateful

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The God of Israel has given laws to teach how to know, love, worship, believe in, and testify about Him, so those who want seeking after the Spirit by doing those things will follow those instructions, which were given for our own good (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13). If we learn to love as God loves us by following His law, then while we no longer taught by the law how to do that, we are nevertheless still living in accordance with what God’s law instructs. While God’s law was not given to make us righteous, it does describe the way that a righteous person lives as it describes the life of Christ.

The Psalms express an extremely positive view of obeying God’s law, such as with David repeatedly saying that he loved it and delighted in obeying it, so if we consider the Psalms to be Scripture and to therefore express a correct view of obeying God’s law, then we will share it as Paul did (Romans 7:22), while the view that it only condemns us is incompatible with the view that the psalms are Scripture. For example, in Psalms 1:1-2, blessed are those who delight in the Law of the Lord and who meditate on it day and night, so we can’t believe in the truth of these words as Scripture while not allowing them to shape our view of obeying God’s law. There is no way that you can read something like Psalms 19:7-11 or Psalms 119 and think that these verses are speaking about a law that only condemns us. Not even earthly fathers give rules to their children with the goal of condemning them, so God knows how to give better laws than that.
Thats not what the Bible says
 

Soyeong

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YOU ARE JUST WRONG!+-* IF YOU CANNOT GET BASIC WORD DEFINITIONS RIGHT, THERE IS NO FURTHER I POINT IN DUSCUSSING.

No bible translation translated Matt. 16 as rebuild or restore.

45 English translations all say- will build because it is a future event. So what do you know that all these linguistic experts do not know?

If it meant rebuild or restore then Jesus lied for that would mean the gates of hell prevailed over the church and now Jesus has to rebuild it. that is antibiblical.

And the four times it is connoted as rebuilding, it means to build something new to replace the old!
I cited the Greek definition to show that "oikodomeo" can mean to restore, rebuild, or repair and I cited a verse that uses it in that sense, so insisting that I am wrong does not counter my position, though we can agree to disagree if you're prefer. When a word can have a range of meanings, then it depends on the surrounding and broader context for the right word choice. Do you think that the prophecies in regard to the restoration of David's fallen tents that were cited in Acts 15:16-18 in regard to the inclusion of Gentiles are antibiblical?

And that is the Law of Christ which is different than the Mosaic Law! the MOsaic Law had 613 ordinances, the Law of Christ has 1008!
If God were to explain to someone what it means to be a doer of righteousness, then He could give 613 examples of how to do what is righteous in various situations or He could give 1,008 examples, but giving more examples would not mean that he was instructing something different than how to be a doer of righteousness. All of the examples would have the same principle in common and the point of all of the examples is to teach that principle. Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example, so I see no justification for thinking that the Law of Christ is something other than or contrary to what Christ taught.
 

Eternally Grateful

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That's not what the Bible says, but rather God's law was given for our own good in order to bless us (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13).
Gal 3: 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.


21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, [f]kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our [g]tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
I cited a number of verses to show that that is indeed what the Bible says.
It is not what the bible says.

Paul said the law caused sin to increase. Not decrease.

those who look to the law to see how to behave are looking to self. Turn from that. Turn to God and love as he loved, and you will fulfill the law. These are jesus words.
Matt 22:
34 But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”


37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”