What's the scoop?

[Stumpmaster]

That doesn't sound like an eternal security message at all.

Are you saying these other guys are telling me wrong?

Who do you think gives eternal security? God or man? I tell you this day, God knows those who are His, and these He makes righteous.

 

[TLHKAJ]

And where does the bible say he had a few glasses of wine anyway?

You will not find any scripture that says Jesus got drunk.

Proverbs 20:1
[1]Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

These are the words of Jesus...

Luke 21:34
[34]And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

 

[Ziggy]

Mat 11:18
For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
Mat 11:19
The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Heresy is everwhere...

It could be that at the wedding in Cana when Jesus turned the water into wine, he may have had a cup or two.
And I say this because during festivities drinking wine was a way to make one merry.
If God created wine, why shouldn't he have a cup or two?

Just sayin..
Ecc 10:19
A feast is made for laughter, and wine maketh merry: but money answereth all things.

Gen 14:18
And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.

But if you abuse it like TLHKAJ said above, it will bite you.

Hugs

 

[Lambano]

Well I can see that those who don't believe in eternal security are outcasts in the Christian community.

Not in this crowd they're not. I don't think you're hearing what's really being said.

Listen to how the arguments are being couched: Those who live like that are not "really saved" or "really 'born again'" or "regenerate" or "only had intellectual belief" or "never really repented" and so on. To the one who feels insecure, what difference does it make whether you had it and lost it or never really had it?

 

[Lambano]

So, my suspicions were correct? This was just a setup to argue against eternal security?

 

[Lambano]

Weed isn't any worse than cigarettes and where I'm at it's legal.

I noticed you're from Denver, and maybe sometime we could talk about the pathetic state of the Broncos. I was texting with a friend in Longmont after the Nuggets won the NBA championship, and noted that Denver had the NBA champs and the defending Stanley Cup champs (though the Avs had been eliminated by then, the playoffs were still ongoing). He said yeah, but all anyone wants to talk about is whether Russell Wilson was washed up.

 

[Lambano]

If this is true, then it does not sound like anybody that believes in Jesus is going to be held accountable for any immoral choices made in this life at all since all sins are already forgiven.

Don't assume that a Father holding a child accountable for their actions implies that His only means of discipline is to kick the kid out of the house if they screw-up. That just leads to a neurotic child. And neurotic children want to make sure all their brothers and sisters grow up equally neurotic.

And I can relate all too well with Evangelicalism's neurotic children.

Anyway, my operating principle is that God is loving and kind - but He also can see through my bulls**t.

 

[Nancy]

Here are the tenets I think your "Once Saved Always Saved" pastor is telling you, and what the problem is with them. Tell me if it sounds familiar:

#1: By the grace of God, sinners are saved through faith (or trust) in Jesus Christ. Sinners not thusly saved are all going to hell. All of them. There is no other ticket of passage through the Pearly Gates because there is no other means for forgiveness of sin―and unforgiven sin leads to eternal punishment.

#2: Faith in Christ, at least insofar as salvation is concerned, is a one-shot deal, not a lifelong process of working out one’s salvation with fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12). Here’s the protocol: You make a heart-felt decision to “accept” Christ as your Lord and Savior at a particular moment in time, promising to surrender your will to His (as discerned through the Bible and through prayer, and maybe if you’re lucky through your pastor), and at all subsequent moments you are still saved. Once you have that Salvific Moment of Faith, salvation is guaranteed. (Let me say this again, because it is absolutely the OSAS mantra: salvation is GUARANTEED.)

#3: You can, of course, still fall into sin after your Salvific Moment of Faith. But if you do, forgiveness is freely available; you simply repent, confess your sins (1 John 1:19) and you’ll be pardoned. (Come to think of it, don’t repent and you’ll still be pardoned, at least in respect of any punishment that would entail loss of salvation; see Tenet #2.)

#4: Even though forgiveness is freely available, your Salvific Moment of Faith is not a license to sin, and there will be consequences if you do. But if salvation is all you care about, it may as well be a license to sin, because it has the EXACT SAME EFFECT as a license (see Tenet #3.) Your subsequent sins WILL NOT void your ticket. Paul prayed that your “whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Thess. 5:23), but if you end up being blameworthy, don’t worry; maybe you’ll get a slight scolding from the Lord as he waives you on through the Pearly Gates, but that’s about it.

#5: Paul’s admonition in 1 Cor. 6:9-10 to the Christian community in Corinth that sexual immorality, idolatry, adultery, homosexuality, thievery, etc. will keep one from inheriting the kingdom doesn’t apply to born-again Christians. None of those things will keep Christians from their divine inheritance, for the simple reason that NOTHING can ever do that after their Salvific Moment of Faith (see Tenet #2).

#6: Jesus’ admonition in Matt. 24:13 that “he who endures to the end will be saved” was intended just for his disciples. As for everybody else, upon being “born again” he who doesn’t endure to the end will also be saved. Luke 8:13 notwithstanding, Rom. 11:22 notwithstanding, 1 Thess. 3:5 notwithstanding, 1 Tim. 4:1 notwithstanding, 2 Pet. 2:20–21 notwithstanding, Heb. 3:14 notwithstanding, Heb. 10:26–29 notwithstanding, 2 John 1:8-9 notwithstanding, you need not be steadfast for a lifetime after your Salvific Moment of Faith. Once you’re “born again,” you can’t “die” again. John 3:3’s necessary precondition to salvation also a sufficient one.

This last tenet is the OSAS mindset in a nutshell. They read John 1:12’s “as many as received him, to them he gave the power (or the right or the authority) to be sons of God” as though it said “as many as received him, he made into automatic sons of God.” Compare Origen’s observation that receiving “authority to become the children of God” differs from “becoming children.” And Chrysostom: “Why did he say, not ‘made them children of God,’ but ‘gave them authority to become children of God’? Because he was shewing us that we need all diligence to preserve, unstained and untainted-throughout our whole lives - the image of sonship by adoption stamped upon us in our baptism. And at the same time he made it clear that no one will be able to take from us this authority unless we first deprive our own selves of it.”

Mistranslations on the printed page also fuel their fire. 1 Cor. 1:18 and 2 Cor. 2:15 both use the word σῳζομένοις, which is a present participle, properly translated as “being saved.” The KJV translates it as “are saved.” (Maybe that’s why the OSAS crowd are so enamored of the KJV!)

OSAS denizens readily agree that on becoming Christians their “names are in the book of life” (Phil. 3:13). If you suggest to them that their names can still be blotted out of that book by sin, i.e., “Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book” (Ex. 32:33), and that “whosoever was not found in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire” (Rev. 20:15), they will tell you that their names have been written in the book of life with indelible ink.

Next comes the rationalization. Point out someone who has made that heart-felt decision to “accept” Christ (see tenet #2) but who is nevertheless a habitual sinner, and the OSAS crowd will reply that the sinner’s original acceptance wasn’t really genuine, as demonstrated by the subsequent behavior belying any decision to live a life in imitation of Christ. This kind of “by their fruits ye shall know them” argument is, of course, a slippery slope. Once you admit that moments of weakness affect even the genuinely born-again, who then lapse into sin, you are stuck with figuring out how much sin is too much.

1 John 1:8 tells us that we all sin. 1 John 3:9 tells us that whoever is born of God cannot sin. See the problem?

Sounds like Calvinism to me...been there and it was not a good experience, had me always wondering "gee, was I really chosen of God? Those were some tumultuous times! It was very easy to leave there after 3 years, there were no friends to be had as they were very, very cliquey and only looked down on myself as well as others. Horrible doctrine!

 

[Dan Clarkston]

The bible says that sin is the transgression of the law.

Good thing we are not under the law anymore!

Probably because everyone here pretty much has faith.
And faith is the key.

So eternal security comes by having faith and has nothing to do with your lifestyle then right?

Some have claimed you have to earn your salvation by cleaning up your life and others say it doesn't matter how you life because you are saved no matter what as long as you believe.

they have faith in God that gave us doctors

Where does the bible say that God gave us doctors?

Doctors sure fail to cure people a lot so I thought God was better than that

Anyway, my operating principle is that God is loving and kind - but He also can see through my bulls**t.

What doers that even mean?

That eternal security is true for some and not true for others?

Sounds like Calvinism to me...been there and it was not a good experience, had me always wondering "gee, was I really chosen of God? Those were some tumultuous times! It was very easy to leave there after 3 years, there were no friends to be had as they were very, very cliquey and only looked down on myself as well as others. Horrible doctrine!

I read one preacher that said eternal security came from calvinism. Is this wherre it comes from?

 

[Nancy]

Good thing we are not under the law anymore!





So eternal security comes by having faith and has nothing to do with your lifestyle then right?

Some have claimed you have to earn your salvation by cleaning up your life and others say it doesn't matter how you life because you are saved no matter what as long as you believe.





Where does the bible say that God gave us doctors?

Doctors sure fail to cure people a lot so I thought God was better than that





What doers that even mean?

That eternal security is true for some and not true for others?





I read one preacher that said eternal security came from calvinism. Is this wherre it comes from?

"I read one preacher that said eternal security came from calvinism. Is this wherre it comes from?"

Well, that is a part of Calvinism but, I do believe other, individual Christians, or whole congregations can be believers in OSAS (Perseverance of the Saints).

 

[marks]

So, my suspicions were correct? This was just a setup to argue against eternal security?

Trolling us, to push the point, "I'm eternally secure so I can sin all I want . . . right??"

If it's AI then answering doesn't help.

Much love!

 

[Ziggy]

Good thing we are not under the law anymore!

Oh look it's a good day! I finally figured out how to do this multi quote thing yeehaw!

That's right. We are not under the law. We walk in it.

So eternal security comes by having faith and has nothing to do with your lifestyle then right?

Some have claimed you have to earn your salvation by cleaning up your life and others say it doesn't matter how you life because you are saved no matter what as long as you believe.

You can't earn your salvation, as salvation is a gift from God to all those that believe in him.
And if you believe in God, and your lifestyle walks contrary to God. You will want to clean it up.
You won't want to keep doing whatever it was that was keeping you from God in the first place.
When you are born again, there is a whole transition from who you were to who you are becoming.
And the Holy Spirit that is now in you, begins working on that transition by nudging your conscience.

And you keep coming back to "some say this and some say that" read it for yourself.
That's the only way you'll know for sure.

Where does the bible say that God gave us doctors?

Doctors sure fail to cure people a lot so I thought God was better than that

Well, God gives men gifts. And some use them properly and others use them for their own gain.

1Co 12:27
Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1Co 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Co 12:29
Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30
Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1Co 12:31
But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.


I'm not going to get into it with you about doctors today. That's a whole different topic.
But God did give man knowledge and a willingness to learn how to fix what they are able.
But there some things even doctors can't fix.

Speaking of doctors....
I just got back from visiting my dad in the hospital. He looks better today. He has a urinary tract infection which spread to his blood.
They have him on antibiotics and the meds are kicking his butt.
But he did eat some lunch today. And laid back down to take a nap, so I just got home.
He will be 89 in February, and this seems to be a recurring theme every winter.
But they don't know him like I know him. And when I try to help them help him, they get a bit ... what's the word?
Like I'm trying to tell them how to do their job, but I'm not.
I just say like, he has more strength on his right side than his left, when they want him to get out of bed.
Or I explain that he is deaf in his right ear so you have to talk to him in his left ear.
And they keep yelling in his right ear..???
IDK..
Impatient.. that's the word.
I don't like hospitals.But sometimes they have the meds that work on the body.
But they haven't got the right meds for the heart.
Only God has that.

So, what do you think about once saved always saved? Have you made up your own mind, or are you going to keep listening to everybody else's mind?

This is what I believe:
When I was 18 I gave my life to God. I'm 58 now. There been a lot of ups and downs, doing things his way and my way and his way and my way. Kinda like bouncing into the water and into the flames... some call it lunatick... lol
But I never lose faith in God. He always calls me back and sets me back on the right path.
So I believe that once God saved me, I am always saved because I can't lose my faith in him.
I just can't. I've witnessed too many things in my own life to say, God don't exist. I know he does.
Now the day I say and believe that God don't exist, that's the day I believe I lose my salvation.
Because you can't be saved by something you choose not to believe in.

Once saved Always saved... As long as you keep the faith.

That's what I believe.
Now you go figure out what you believe. Because my faith may be way different from yours. And my belief may be way different from yours. And maybe you haven't experienced what I have that makes that faith concrete.

Back in 2015 doctors said I had a year to live.
I'm still here by the grace of God.
Amen

Hugs

 

[Dan Clarkston]

We are not under the law. We walk in it.

That doesn't make any sense.

We re supposed to live according to the law but we are not supposed to be under the law?

salvation is a gift from God to all those that believe in him.

Exactly, it's a gift.

Some people appear to be claiming that we have to change our lifestyle to be saved and if we don't God takes the free gift away and becomes an indian giver.

Once saved Always saved... As long as you keep the faith.

I'm still believing so I'm good to go

 

[amadeus]

.

Some people appear to be claiming that we have to change our lifestyle to be saved and if we don't God takes the free gift away and becomes an indian giver.


.

What is Repentance? It means more than being sorry for what we have done wrong..

 

[Mink57]

That doesn't make any sense.

We re supposed to live according to the law but we are not supposed to be under the law?





Exactly, it's a gift.

Some people appear to be claiming that we have to change our lifestyle to be saved and if we don't God takes the free gift away and becomes an indian giver.






I'm still believing so I'm good to go

Apparently, you don't get what Jesus said.

First 'rule of order' that Jesus preached was, "REPENT." He also says, (in so many words) that we have to keep HIS Commandments, and do the Will of his Father.

You can't look at a bible verse or two and ignore the rest.

 

[JohnDB]

@Dan Clarkston ,

Just reciting the "Sinners Prayer" once and then going out and doing nothing more towards your salvation is nothing more than an emotional moment where you grabbed a sort of "Fire Insurance " policy to protect yourself from Hell.

That's not being a child of God. There are literally billions of people past and present that have done exactly as you have...including Adolf Hitler. Even Satan knows that Jesus was raised from the dead....so it's not just flat belief something happened that's important....There's a LOT more than that to being a Christian.

See, it's about forming a relationship between yourself and God....and not the God that you created in your head but the One True Living God.

Why should God allow you access into Heaven?
Have you done anything to express gratitude to God?

If I were to give you a membership to a very exclusive Country Club all inclusive of dining, swimming, tennis courts, horse stables and golf course....and paid ALL of your dues and expenses on a yearly basis.....

What gratitude would you show me? Could you at least be friendly towards me? Respect the rules of the country club? (Like not have sex with your girlfriend in the pool?) Get a cab/uber when you have had too much to drink in the men's lounge? Not drive the golf cart on the greens? Could you at least try to not upset EVERY member of the Country Club?

That's what the many posters above are asking and you seem to be insistent upon arguing every last bit over.

Personally I don't care....your choices are yours to live with....BUT

Those of us with longstanding relationships with God have given up all sorts of things for God. We try to be more like Him every day. We have become generous givers instead of takers. We have denied ourselves of a lot of pleasures as well as working to improve the lives of others. We diligently study the scriptures in hopes of understanding God more....we don't just read them....we STUDY them....know every word as best as possible and study all the relating sciences from archeology to anthropology and even zoology....basically all points in between.

We all started with a question and set about studying until we found that answer but coming up with new questions along the way.
My biggest question ever has yet to be answered....and it's not in scripture but I keep looking anyway. But maybe one day He will answer it Himself.

If your life doesn't resemble anything like I've stated above with gratitude...then you don't have a relationship....you have a worthless fire insurance policy and are one of the virgins who left to buy more oil. I suggest a very different course of action.

 

[Ziggy]

That doesn't make any sense.

We re supposed to live according to the law but we are not supposed to be under the law?

You see, the bible is like a rabbit hole. The more questions you ask the deeper you go. lol
I don't know if your ready for another bite. You seem to still be having trouble chewing on the first bite.
But because you asked..

I will quote Paul in Romans chapter 8. It's heavy, and takes some serious thought to understand, but I'll serve it to you and hope it goes down smoothly..ready?

Rom 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:4
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

I understand what that means because I been studying the bible for a lot of years now. But I'm sure to a newbie like yourself, that can sound pretty confusing.
Do you want the entire history of Moses and the law that God gave to him to hand down through the generations of Israel?
And how they kept breaking the law by trying to keep the law, trying to gain their own rightness with God?
And how no matter how right we try to be, we can never truly be as right as we should be by doing it ourselves, because we are human beings and we make a lot of mistakes. We do things we think are right, but God's right ways are more internal and from the heart than doing things with our own hands and in our own power.
Or the history about how Jesus came to fulfil that very law that we could not fulfil ourselves. And gave us His Spirit which keeps us in the spirit of the law? So, only by His Spirit and allowing His spirit to work through us, are we able to stay in the boundary of the law.
Now the law which was given to Moses was all about how you live your life in service to God in the flesh.
They had to perform services every day in a specific way. And they did according to the letter.
Every plate was washed, every sacrifice was given, every ordinance was kept. But their heart wasn't in it. They just went about the daily routines but they had no faith. They simply believed by doing what was written, they would be in good standing and saved by God.

So Jesus himself came and fulfilled the very meaning or spirit of the law that God had given to Israel but they were too hard hearted to understand what should of motivated them to keep the law.
This motivation can only come from God's spirit. We just don't have it in ourselves to always do the right thing.

So when I say we are not under the law, I'm talking about the law God gave to Moses written with pen and ink which they couldn't keep because they didn't have any faith mixed in with their services. Or what one would call.. book smart. They read the manual but the engine still wouldn't run.
And because they had covenanted or promised God that they would keep it and couldn't, they fell under condemnation for breaking it.
They couldn't keep it. Because they were trying to do things their way.

So now God has sent his Spirit to reside in us to walk in the law through faith through his power and not our own.
So let's take a look at Moses' law.
Thou shalt not kill/murder whichever you choose.
But Jesus says it's more than just the act of killing or murdering, He says:
Mat 5:21
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

So the physical thou shalt not kill was what you do in the flesh, in your physical body.
But in the spirit of the law, it begins in the heart. It begins with anger and hatred. This is the seed which leads to the action.

And another:

Mat 5:27
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

It's not just the action with the physical body thats a sin, it begins in the spirit, in the heart of one lusting after a woman to commit adultery. It's the motivation behind the action, and that is the spirit of the law. Not just what is written on paper, but what is written in the heart and in the mind.

And this is the meaning of the New Covenant we have with God today through Jesus and His Holy Spirit:
Heb 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

And I realize this is a lot to take in and you probably haven't read a word I've written and that's ok.
You asked, I answered to the best of my limited understanding.

So we no longer are under the condemnation of the law which we couldn't keep through our own might.
Now we walk according to the spirit of the law, that comes from the heart and mind, the motivation if you will, that comes from the Holy Spirit of God.

We don't hate, we don't get angry just to be a jerk, we don't googly eye all the pretty guys and girls that go by. We don't lie to others, and we shouldn't lie to ourselves.. (thats a hard one) . We don't steal or take anothers joy to be hurtful, jealousy is useless.
So this law we walk in now, is the law in our hearts and it's the same law that comes from God's own spirit.

So yeah, not an easy topic to explain, but if you study it, you'll understand the difference between being under the law, and condemned by something we can't keep. To walking in the law which God put in our hearts and minds and by His spirit it is kept.

Gee, I hope that helped..
Just something to chew on.
Hugs

 

[Dan Clarkston]

What is Repentance? It means more than being sorry for what we have done wrong..

Stop being an unbeliever and start being a believer!

Seems like most Christians agree that that salvation is by faith alone plus nothing.

First 'rule of order' that Jesus preached was, "REPENT." He also says, (in so many words) that we have to keep HIS Commandments, and do the Will of his Father.

You can't look at a bible verse or two and ignore the rest.

Then you must believe that you have to do good stuff to be saved then right?

You can't have it both ways claiming it's not possible to lose your salvation and then turn around and say one isn't saved unless they start doing a bunch of good stuff.

Which way is it? Can one lose their salvation or not???

Just reciting the "Sinners Prayer" once and then going out and doing nothing more towards your salvation is nothing more than an emotional moment where you grabbed a sort of "Fire Insurance " policy to protect yourself from Hell.

Do you believe one can lose their salvation or not?

If one cannot lose their salvation then all this other stuff is irrelevant.

Those that keep saying you have to do good stuff 'or else' are saying they don't believe salvation is by faith alone plus nothing.

Those of us with longstanding relationships with God have given up all sorts of things for God.

And why did you do this? To earn your right to be saved?

If your life doesn't resemble anything like I've stated above

You apparently believe one is not saved unless they act like you do.

 

[Debp]

Some people appear to be claiming that we have to change our lifestyle to be saved and if we don't God takes the free gift away and becomes an indian giver.

Most of us are not claiming the above.

We are saying that if you are saved, there will be a change in your heart and life.... because the Holy Spirit now dwells within you.

With some people, the changes happen more slowly. Others have a dramatic conversion experience where their life is totally changed practically overnight.

 

[JohnDB]

Stop being an unbeliever and start being a believer!

Seems like most Christians agree that that salvation is by faith alone plus nothing.





Then you must believe that you have to do good stuff to be saved then right?

You can't have it both ways claiming it's not possible to lose your salvation and then turn around and say one isn't saved unless they start doing a bunch of good stuff.

Which way is it? Can one lose their salvation or not???





Do you believe one can lose their salvation or not?

If one cannot lose their salvation then all this other stuff is irrelevant.

Those that keep saying you have to do good stuff 'or else' are saying they don't believe salvation is by faith alone plus nothing.





And why did you do this? To earn your right to be saved?






You apparently believe one is not saved unless they act like you do.

Are you trying to get away with doing the extreme minimum to be saved?

Salvation involves a process...an ongoing process called Sanctification.
It's not an instantaneous thing even though it's often stated as such.

These questions you keep asking ad nauseum of everyone seem like you don't want to really know Christ and are more interested in if your shallow theology is right or not. And I don't have those answers for you. But remember Judas? He knew who Jesus was...even performed miracles himself in Jesus's name. Seen with his own eyes Jesus walking on water and saw Lazarus raised from the dead.

But see, Judas was in it for himself....he wanted the Salvation but at core was interested in the salvation and power of being God's friend...not so much about just being Jesus's disciple but instead only the perks that came with it. (Was Judas Saved?)

I don't know if you ever had Salvation so I don't know if you can lose it. I dont know that you aren't saved either. You are being rather cagey and relying upon anonymity rather heavily but still not being transparent. I don't know why.
I believe the parable of the soils. What sort of soil are you? What sort of soil do you want to be?

God is a person...emotions, feelings, and all that. He isn't a computer that has lines of code with "if x then y" type statements for His programming. Meaning that you "get" what you "give" but not entirely...a relationship with God is not exactly transactional either. It's not that cold and dispassionate. Even though your questions make it seem as such in your view.