When and why will God end our world?

[amigo de christo]

I have. In great detail.

In like manner, they fornicated.

Can't we accept this? If not, why not?

Much love!

it Was men , sons of God .

 

[amigo de christo]

I have. In great detail.

In like manner, they fornicated.

Can't we accept this? If not, why not?

Man is evil, but that doesn't mean other beings don't rebel. Some of the angels rebelled against God.

Much love!

Read chapter six verse two and three. RIGHT after verse two , GOD says mans heart . mans heart .
It was men breeding and picking and choosing many wives and etc .

 

[marks]

Read chapter six verse two and three. RIGHT after verse two , GOD says mans heart . mans heart .
It was men breeding and picking and choosing many wives and etc .

Genesis 6:1-9 KJV
1) And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2) That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3) And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4) There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
5) And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6) And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7) And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8) But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
9) These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

It was the "sons of God" and the "daughters of men" and why bother to make the distinction if they were all human? And the children of Adam were not called the sons of God. Look at Luke, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

I'm not so used to God not saying what He means as others seem to be. The faithful ones of God married the unfaithful ones of God and these ones, not the other humans,

just these, for some reason, not when the sons of man married the daughters of man,

but only when these people married those people, their children were nephilim, fallen ones (that is, fallen from high), the Titans.

Noah was "perfect in his generations". That's another one of those very interesting statements. Kind of sitting there by itself, appropos of what, who can say? But if we are talking about the contamination of mankind with this nephilim breed, then it has a very specific meaning in setting Noah apart from that contamination. That God was not going to bring the nephilim seed into the ark.

Yes, man is evil. Fallen angels are evil. The devil is evil. No question in my mind!

It's easier for me to believe that angels left their celestial bodies, against God's intent, to try to contaminate mankind, and prevent the Seed of the Woman from reaching fruition. Or just to be evil, I don't know. Than to believe that this portion of Genesis is only telling us that believers married unbelievers and had Titans for children. Fallen ones. The Were fallen ones, right? So that's a tautology. Except if we're talking about angels.

And that's what the common understanding was until a few hundred years after Jesus went back to heaven. That was the common understanding when Jesus was in Israel casting their unclean spirits out of people.

That's why the unclean spirit, when it leaves a man, goes through arid places, wanting to get back into a body. It has no place to "be". It's not angel, it doesn't go where angels go. It's not man, it doesn't go to sheol. It's "rapha", follow that word through the Old Testament and be prepared to be creeped out. Or not, it depends on you. But it's a Very Interesting study!

Much love!

 

[Truth7t7]

To get to the answer of this question we need to go to the only true source the bible and see when and why did God judge the world before. The only time this happened was back in Genesis chapters 4, 5 and 6. There is much to learn about the end times in these three chapters more than most people think. The main part of the text is found in Genesis chapter 6:1-8

Genesis 6:1-8
when human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.”

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

Many people believe that the sons of God were fallen angels who fornicated and had children with female human beings thus making the world so evil that God decided to destroy civilization. Could this be? Could spiritual beings actually fornicate with human beings and have offspring even though Paul shows us in 1 Corinthians 15 that the heavenly bodies have a different splendor than human bodies? Would God really allow this to happen?

I believe that the sons of God were the faithful sons from the line of Seth and that the daughters of men were the unfaithful daughters from the unfaithful line of Cain.

In these three chapters of Genesis we see that the descendants of Seth were faithful to God while the descendants of Cain were unfaithful. What we read about the descendants of Cain is the great accomplishments they made which is not bad in its self but it is if it’s their highest priority. When we read about Seth's descendants we see that they were great men of God who had many children and lived long lives but this was not attributed to Cain’s descendants.

God warns the faithful people many times to not mix with the unfaithful in the Old Testament and the reason for this is to keep the faithful from being corrupted. We read that one of the reasons that the sons of God were attracted to the daughters of men was because of their beauty not because of love so the reason that they fornicated with them was for lust not love.

But there must be more to the reason that the sons of God were attracted to the daughters of men because there would also have been many beautiful women from the line of Seth.

Lamech gives us the reason for this in Genesis chapter 5

Genesis 5:28-29
28 When Lamech had lived 182 years, he had a son. 29 He named him Noah[c] and said, “He will comfort us in the labor and painful toil of our hands caused by the ground the LORD has cursed.”

The faithful people of God began to lose faith and complain about the pain and burden of working a cursed soil. Lamech named his son Noah which means rest as he thought that Noah would bring his people comfort and rest.

What the daughters of men offered the sons of God was Autonomy

Autonomy

1. The right or condition of self-government.

A self-governing country or region.

• Freedom from external control or influence; independence.

Self-government · independence · self-rule · home rule · sovereignty ·

.

Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation?

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ?

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Truth7t7]

Read chapter six verse two and three. RIGHT after verse two , GOD says mans heart . mans heart .
It was men breeding and picking and choosing many wives and etc .

Absolutely, the Sons of God were human men that married human women

This false teaching in the Nepholim is from the late Calvary Chapel prophecy Guru, Chuck Missler from Koinania House

 

[Truth7t7]

Genesis 6:1-9 KJV
1) And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2) That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3) And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4) There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
5) And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6) And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7) And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8) But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
9) These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

It was the "sons of God" and the "daughters of men" and why bother to make the distinction if they were all human? And the children of Adam were not called the sons of God. Look at Luke, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

I'm not so used to God not saying what He means as others seem to be. The faithful ones of God married the unfaithful ones of God and these ones, not the other humans,

just these, for some reason, not when the sons of man married the daughters of man,

but only when these people married those people, their children were nephilim, fallen ones (that is, fallen from high), the Titans.

Noah was "perfect in his generations". That's another one of those very interesting statements. Kind of sitting there by itself, appropos of what, who can say? But if we are talking about the contamination of mankind with this nephilim breed, then it has a very specific meaning in setting Noah apart from that contamination. That God was not going to bring the nephilim seed into the ark.

Yes, man is evil. Fallen angels are evil. The devil is evil. No question in my mind!

It's easier for me to believe that angels left their celestial bodies, against God's intent, to try to contaminate mankind, and prevent the Seed of the Woman from reaching fruition. Or just to be evil, I don't know. Than to believe that this portion of Genesis is only telling us that believers married unbelievers and had Titans for children. Fallen ones. The Were fallen ones, right? So that's a tautology. Except if we're talking about angels.

And that's what the common understanding was until a few hundred years after Jesus went back to heaven. That was the common understanding when Jesus was in Israel casting their unclean spirits out of people.

That's why the unclean spirit, when it leaves a man, goes through arid places, wanting to get back into a body. It has no place to "be". It's not angel, it doesn't go where angels go. It's not man, it doesn't go to sheol. It's "rapha", follow that word through the Old Testament and be prepared to be creeped out. Or not, it depends on you. But it's a Very Interesting study!

Much love!

Angels arent given in marriage, nor do they maintain human sperm for pro-creation

 

[Marty fox]

100% agreement as to why God's judgment is coming.

Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation?

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ?

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Sure I agree with you but what was your point of posting this were you agreeing or disagreeing with me?

 

[Marty fox]

I like seeing all of the posting action on this guys but how do you feel about the message of the post?

 

[amigo de christo]

All i know is the COMING OF THE GLORIOUS LORD JESUS draws nigh .
Let us be prepared to lose all for His name sake . The HOPE we have in HIM . PRAISE THE GLORIOUS LORD .

 

[Truth7t7]

Sure I agree with you but what was your point of posting this were you agreeing or disagreeing with me?

If you believe Jesus returns in fire and Final judgement dissolving this earth by fire, then we agree

The Topic is why and when will our world end, and I posted how it will end

 

[Marty fox]

If you believe Jesus returns in fire and Final judgement dissolving this earth by fire, then we agree

The Topic is why and when will our world end, and I posted how it will end

Okay thanks but the question was why and when?

 

[Truth7t7]

Okay thanks but the question was why and when?

And I answered the when, and the why is seen below, in that they denied the truth, and had pleasure in their unrighteousness, simple

2 Thessalonians 2
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Taken]

When and why will God end our world?
OP ^

Why?
Disappointment, Anger, that (many of) mankind has enjoyed what God Provided mankind, without acknowledgement, God IS the provider.

When?
When Gods "tolerance" has run its course.
When Gods "anger" has become "kindled HOT".

Nothing new under the sun.
History repeats itself.
God destroyed this world once...
God shall destroy this world again for the last time.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Brakelite]

@marks
The passage from Jude...
KJV Jude 1:4-7
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

• Okay. My thoughts. Jude is warning the church that apostasy reaps condemnation, and Jude refers to several major instances where this took place. The apostasy spoken of comprised in every case a major departure from clear and obvious truth. Lucifer and his angels rebellion in heaven, and thus "left their first habitation". Jesus referred to this...KJV Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

However, this falling from heaven didn't preclude the fact that he still had limited access to heaven as the ruler or prince of this world and attending councils involving other leaders of other worlds... Intimated in Job 1, those "sons of God" being those leaders.
The other apostasy instances as Jude said, Were principally unbelief, but unbelief despite clear and obvious evidence to the contrary... The Exodus, Sodom and Gomorrah (with the flood and the tower of babel still fresh in the memories of their immediate ancestors), and of course the apostasy of the children of Seth, the sons of God, fornicating with the daughters of Cain. Those daughters symbolically being fallen churches, reminiscent of the daughters of Babylon in Revelation, the harlots of the Moabites that Balaam incited Israel to mingle with, etc etc. There is no need in any of this to introduce fallen angels (who cannot be described as sons of God in any sense if the word) having intimate relations with humans. There is no indication in scripture that angels have the necessary equipment to accomplish this. They may indeed look like us in appearance, but of they cannot and do not have sex e inner another, there is no evidence they can with another species altogether.

 

[marks]

Lucifer and his angels rebellion in heaven, and thus "left their first habitation". Jesus referred to this...KJV Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

That's not this word, oiketerion. That refers to the celestial body.

Much love!

 

[marks]

There is no indication in scripture that angels have the necessary equipment to accomplish this. They may indeed look like us in appearance, but of they cannot and do not have sex e inner another, there is no evidence they can with another species altogether.

That is an argument from silence. No evidence they can, no evidence they cannot. Except wait just a minute! There is evidence they can, because the Bible says this is what happened in pretty straightforward terms.

Jude 1:6-7 KJV
6) And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation (celestial body), he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7) Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

It's right there.

Much love!

 

[marks]

of the children of Seth, the sons of God, fornicating with the daughters of Cain.

And why would their unions produce the Titans? That makes no sense to me.

Much love!

 

[Stumpmaster]

When and why will God end our world?

When there is nothing restraining the man of sin,
The final stage of earth's destruction will begin,
So to purge Creation of its cursed imperfection,
And to raise dead saints in blessed resurrection.

 

[Timtofly]

Jude 1:6-7 KJV
6) And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7) Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Much love!

One third of the stars left the firmament where God placed them, and went on strike. God then bound them in the pit until the 5th Trumpet sounds. This had to be prior to the Flood, but it could have been prior or at the same time as Adam's disobedience.

You cannot just infer, that God let them come to earth, but they were chained up immediately into the pit.


As for Sodom, they were having relations with animals, the next step after same sex relations. The city probably had mixed breed half human, half animal hybrids. It had to be obliterated.

God sent the angels to remove Lot. God will send angels to remove the final harvest.

In Job God made a distinction between the stars and mankind, the angels and the sons of God. If the sons of God still held counsel in Job's day, then the original sons of God created on day six were not involved in the evil before the Flood, but their offspring certainly was. Genesis 5 is not saying Adam was directly involved but generations after Adam. So it was not those created on the 6th day, but many generations later.

The reason why Cain's family do not have lengths of their life, would indicate they never died. Not that they could not be killed, because Lemach confessed to killing some young men, just like Cain killed Abel.

One cannot spiritualize this time as Cain being ungodly and Seth being godly. It was the opposite. Seth was in Adam's fallen, ungodly image. No where does it claim Cain was a fallen human. Cain was born prior to the time Adam disobeyed God. Even if you cannot accept that, you would have to say both were ungodly, and cannot claim was not.

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

It's easier for me to believe that angels left their celestial bodies, against God's intent, to try to contaminate mankind, and prevent the Seed of the Woman from reaching fruition.

You're venturing into the extremely dangerous world of Gnosticism with this argument. Angels were created as spirit beings, therefore there was no physical body for them to leave. The entirety of Gen. 6 is clearly about what men were doing to offend God because Christ stated in Matt 24:38 that the people in the Pre-Flood world were the ones doing the marrying.

That is an argument from silence. No evidence they can, no evidence they cannot. Except wait just a minute! There is evidence they can, because the Bible says this is what happened in pretty straightforward terms.

Christ stated in Matt. 22 that angels cannot have sexual intercourse and were never created with the means to do so, so it is intellectually dishonest to argue that the Bible isn't clear on the matter.