When and why will God end our world?

[Marty fox]

I suppose if you were going to read only this passage in a vacuum…and then only focus on the parts that specifically mention humans…then…yes. Yes we could conclude the context is humans.

Let’s just look first, at this passage:

Jude 1:6-7
[6] And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—[7] just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Jude gives us no room to wiggle here. He clearly links angelic sin…angelic fall…TO similar sins found in Sodom and Gomorrah. We cannot simply say this is a reference to the angels who fell with Satan….a warriors army fighting against God’s righteous angels. No! Jude tells us that these angels are kept in chains of gloomy darkness, their sins “just as” Sodom and Gomorrah, “which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire”.
Indeed, Jude is so insistent on the issue, he pushes it twice; “Just as”….”likewise”.
If this incident is NOT the Gen 6 account…when else might we expect that angels have sinned sexually? And…what sort of sexual sin would be ‘unnatural’ for them, do you think? Jesus had already told us that angels “in heaven” do not have sex. That leaves fallen angels sinning with one another…like kind with like kind….or angels with humans.

IF we take this passage, and we hold it up against Psalm 82, where the “sons of God” are clearly NOT human…they are described as ‘elohim’…as members of a ‘divine council’ who have sinned against the ‘Most High’ and are being judged, then we also see that the human interpretation is not strong…certainly not probable.

Lastly…you claim it makes sense for it to be about humans…to show that the ‘context’ is to ‘not conform to the ways of the world’. While I agree that is a teaching the bible has in various places, I’m not sure that is the best, or right, teaching to take from this passage or particular events. Consider this passage:

Numbers 13:32-33
[32] So they brought to the people of Israel a bad report of the land that they had spied out, saying, “The land, through which we have gone to spy it out, is a land that devours its inhabitants, and all the people that we saw in it are of great height. [33] And there we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak, who come from the Nephilim), and we seemed to ourselves like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them.”

Here we have clear reference to the Nephilim being giants. Big, scary dudes. The ‘sons of Anak’. There’s a few of them. Following on from this event, as Israel wanders in the desert and then settles in the land afterwards, we see God declaring war against these ‘giant clans’. We see them called various things, “Anakim, Rephaim”…sometimes “Amorites”. Recall one famous giant…Goliath? References to giant clans and the Anakim, Rephaim pop up all the way through Joshua. Even David does some mopping up. God is clearly declaring war against these beings.
Scholar Dr Michael Heiser posits that “The motivation is inextricably linked to the idea that rival gods seek to prevent Yahweh’s people from re-establishing the kingdom of God on earth.”
Indeed, we can look at the rebellion of the angels, as they ‘took’ human women and ‘came into them’ as a direct form of treason. These angels were attempting to ‘make in their own image’…to beget their own offspring to set up their own Kingdoms, so that they might be like ‘the Most High’. Not unlike Satan.

Thus, while “do not conform to the ways of this world” is a wise message, I believe what Gen 6 is portraying is another event of cosmic treason that explains why God had his people systematically slaughter their way through people groups. We know and accept Satan’s interference in trying to halt Christ’s coming into this world…we seem to miss the clear references throughout the OT to all these ‘bastard’ clans that did their very best to wipe out God’s people…all from the source of angelic rebellion in Gen 6.

Our earthly bodies have a different splendor to the heavenly bodies as Paul explains below they don’t mix that’s why demons possess people

1 Corinthians 15:40
40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.

 

[Naomi25]

Our earthly bodies have a different splendor to the heavenly bodies as Paul explains below they don’t mix that’s why demons possess people

1 Corinthians 15:40
40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.

And yet…Christ, when he was resurrected in his ‘heavenly body’ had definite physical attributes. He ate, he was touched.

Interesting point: do you know that second temple Jewish literature shows that Jews believed that the demons who possessed people were actually the spirits of the Nephilim. Which they believed were offspring of angels and people. That’s why their referred to as ‘unclean’ spirits…because they’re half breeds, mixed race of unions that should not have been.

Anyway….look…as interesting as I find all this, I don’t need to be right. I mean…I think I am! But I’m not overly dogmatic on it, and it’s not something I want to get into a hard and fast fight over, not at all. I just think its sort of fascinating to talk on.

 

[Timtofly]

Whoa! Now, wait on! Talk about finding things in the text that just isn’t there!
Please…explain to me in detail WHERE in Genesis, or the rest of scripture, you find anything that corroborates the idea that there were ‘MANY’ sons created on day 6, not just Adam…and it was then Adams ‘fallen’ line who was breeding with these other, unfallen sons….
Because, to my knowledge, the only ‘lines’ mentioned in scripture is Cain’s and Seths. And while it might be logically feasible to say other people had to exist outside the garden…it doesn’t say that and assuming they were there and were incorruptible…is making assertions the bible doesn’t allow you to.

I think we’ll deal with this before I even touch the rest.

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply."

This was not about Eve at all. This is about those humans created on the 6th 24hr. period known as the 6 days of Creation. Eve was created out of Adam later after the 8 day. God planted the Garden after the 7th day. The seventh day in Genesis 2 is not given the evening and morning time frame. It was not a 24 hour time frame. Genesis 2 is not a repeat of Genesis 1. It defines how God made human kind, and Adam was created on the 6th day and not a separate creation. But the Garden was after the period of God taking a break in creating, to allow for the earth to multiple and grow as God intended. God returned at some point and made the Garden of Eden and separated Adam from the other sons of God. He was separated, because God declared he was alone. God did not bring two into the Garden, just one. He was not even named Adam, until this human named the animals God brought to him to name. He was alone in this big Garden, while the rest of the sons of God remained outside of the Garden of Eden. There is nothing to state that these sons of God had not multiplied across the whole earth, when Adam was separated and placed in the Garden.

The next time a human was called out of humanity, was Abram, and God gave Abram a name as well.

 

[Naomi25]

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply."

‘Them’ as opposed to ‘him’ or ‘her’. But ‘them’ could only refer to Adam and Eve…which is indeed more than one. There is no need to see multiple ‘sons of God’ in the word ‘them’.
Indeed, going on and seeing multiple ‘sons of God’ who didn’t also share in the fallen nature of man after Adam’s sin…something that was so widely spread it affected the very creation itself….well…I think you’re going to need something more than just the word “them”.
Sorry.

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This was not about Eve at all. This is about those humans created on the 6th 24hr. period known as the 6 days of Creation. Eve was created out of Adam later after the 8 day. God planted the Garden after the 7th day. The seventh day in Genesis 2 is not given the evening and morning time frame. It was not a 24 hour time frame. Genesis 2 is not a repeat of Genesis 1. It defines how God made human kind, and Adam was created on the 6th day and not a separate creation. But the Garden was after the period of God taking a break in creating, to allow for the earth to multiple and grow as God intended. God returned at some point and made the Garden of Eden and separated Adam from the other sons of God. He was separated, because God declared he was alone. God did not bring two into the Garden, just one. He was not even named Adam, until this human named the animals God brought to him to name. He was alone in this big Garden, while the rest of the sons of God remained outside of the Garden of Eden. There is nothing to state that these sons of God had not multiplied across the whole earth, when Adam was separated and placed in the Garden.

The next time a human was called out of humanity, was Abram, and God gave Abram a name as well.

“Eve was created out of Adam later, after the 8 day”.
Really.
Scholars generally agree that Chapter 1 of Genesis is a macro look of creation. Chapter 2 is a more…micro look. It is not chronological. We can see that because of this:

Genesis 2:5-7
[5] When no bush of the field was yet in the land and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up—for the LORD God had not caused it to rain on the land, and there was no man to work the ground, [6] and a mist was going up from the land and was watering the whole face of the ground—[7] then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

In the first Chapter we see this order:

Genesis 1:11 (Third Day)
[11] And God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants(5) yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth.” And it was so.

Genesis 1:26-28 (Sixth Day)
[26] Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
[27] So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
[28] And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

So…in Chapter one, we see the plants and vegetation being created BEFORE mankind. But in chapter two, we see clearly that God formed man “from the dust of the ground” BEFORE the vegetation sprouted up from the earth.

It’s not chronological. At all. Which means assuming that Eve was not created either at the same time or very nearly to Adam is not a given at all. But regardless, that is moot. We can see from God’s declaration, his intention was always to create Eve along with Adam: “Let us make man in our image”…”male AND female he created them”. God always knew Adam would need a helper.

So, once more, hanging your argument upon a single word “them”, cannot stand. For it to have any sort of validity, you would need biblical references to these other people, and absolute biblical proof that these extraordinary people did not suffer the fall along with Adam, Eve and the whole cosmos….

 

[n2thelight]

Actually it came before then ,when the earth became void and without form

 

[Timtofly]

‘Them’ as opposed to ‘him’ or ‘her’. But ‘them’ could only refer to Adam and Eve…which is indeed more than one. There is no need to see multiple ‘sons of God’ in the word ‘them’.
Indeed, going on and seeing multiple ‘sons of God’ who didn’t also share in the fallen nature of man after Adam’s sin…something that was so widely spread it affected the very creation itself….well…I think you’re going to need something more than just the word “them”.
Sorry.



“Eve was created out of Adam later, after the 8 day”.
Really.
Scholars generally agree that Chapter 1 of Genesis is a macro look of creation. Chapter 2 is a more…micro look. It is not chronological. We can see that because of this:

Genesis 2:5-7
[5] When no bush of the field was yet in the land and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up—for the LORD God had not caused it to rain on the land, and there was no man to work the ground, [6] and a mist was going up from the land and was watering the whole face of the ground—[7] then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

In the first Chapter we see this order:

Genesis 1:11 (Third Day)
[11] And God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants(5) yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth.” And it was so.

Genesis 1:26-28 (Sixth Day)
[26] Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
[27] So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
[28] And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

So…in Chapter one, we see the plants and vegetation being created BEFORE mankind. But in chapter two, we see clearly that God formed man “from the dust of the ground” BEFORE the vegetation sprouted up from the earth.

It’s not chronological. At all. Which means assuming that Eve was not created either at the same time or very nearly to Adam is not a given at all. But regardless, that is moot. We can see from God’s declaration, his intention was always to create Eve along with Adam: “Let us make man in our image”…”male AND female he created them”. God always knew Adam would need a helper.

So, once more, hanging your argument upon a single word “them”, cannot stand. For it to have any sort of validity, you would need biblical references to these other people, and absolute biblical proof that these extraordinary people did not suffer the fall along with Adam, Eve and the whole cosmos….

Chapter 5 is that reference, but you accept the false notion the sons of God are angels instead of mankind from the 6th day.

If Jesus is an angel when you use the term only begotten son of God, then angels were created in the image of God.

We know that a son of God is the direct image of God. We accept that sons of God should be the image of God, then turn around and call them angels. The deception of Satan runs very deep.

Genesis 2 is not a repeat of chapter 1. The Garden was not created on the 6th Day. It was created after the 7th day, but not 24 hours later. The 7th Day was not a 24 hour break. It was a Day of Adonai. What is the Day of the Lord to you? There was no sin, and no Satan around during that Day of Adonai. There was no death and decay. No wild plants nor weeds grew, nor was there a new plant to grow, until God planted the Garden as chapter 2 explains. Chapter 2 is a separate chronological Garden from the other 6 days. There were plural generations on earth during that 7th time period. The "them" did multiply as God told them to. It was not in the Garden, because the Garden was planted after that 7th Day of Adonai.

Saying there is a micro and macro view, comes from macro and micro evolution, and humans trying to justify the science that Satan teaches humans and the Word of God. The words macro and micro are not found in God's Word. Why use "them"? Why not just accept the "them" in Genesis 1 are the sons of God? They, plural, were male and female. How that works, God did not go into detail. It does not matter. Only one offspring of Adam, in a fallen corruptible body, was left on earth with his 3 sons, and 4 other females, after the Flood. The world before the Flood was destroyed. It was a new heaven and earth, and humans were only guaranteed to live out 120 years, and then die. No more long lives like trees, that lived for thousands of years.

 

[Naomi25]

Chapter 5 is that reference, but you accept the false notion the sons of God are angels instead of mankind from the 6th day.

Regardless if it is Chapter 1,2 or 5, it still does not say that Eve was created on the 8th day. And my point still stands; Chapters 1 & 2 imply chronological retelling was not of highest importance in the narrative.

If Jesus is an angel when you use the term only begotten son of God, then angels were created in the image of God.

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This shows a fundamental lack of understanding when it comes to terms. “Angel” means messenger. When we see Jesus referred to in the OT as ‘the angel of the Lord’, we are not meant to understand him as being ‘only’ an angel. Just that he is performing like tasks. He is delivering a message, he is performing a heavenly, Godly task, as do ‘angels’ at times. And, there is nothing in scripture to say or suggest that angels are created in the image of God. Sons of God they may be…but we are not told if they were created in his likeness and image.

When we come to the term “only begotten son”, there is, again, common misunderstanding about the meaning. Usually people assume ‘beget’ means to ‘procreate or generate’…which, lets face it, is what God DID do for the angels and for mankind. It is not, however, what Jesus is, even when he became incarnate…despite what our JW neighbours might think.
The term ‘begotten’ is: gennao, and typically “only begotten” is Monogenes. I’ll quote Michael Heiser here:

“Monogenēs] doesn’t mean “only begotten” in some sort of “birthing” sense. The confusion extends from an old misunderstanding of the root of the Greek word. For years monogenes was thought to have derived from two Greek terms mono (“only”) and gennaō (“to beget, bear”). Greek scholars later discovered that the second part of the word monogenes does not come from the Greek verb gennao but rather from the noun genos (“class” or “kind”). The term literally means “one of a kind” or “unique” without connotation of created origin.”

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We know that a son of God is the direct image of God. We accept that sons of God should be the image of God, then turn around and call them angels. The deception of Satan runs very deep.

Mmm. Do we? I’m not aware of any such verse. I mean…please…if there ARE verses and passages that tells us that to be a ‘son of God’ is to be the direct image of God, and that the when the bible speaks of angels being the sons of God that they too share his image…then I’m most pleased to read them.

Genesis 2 is not a repeat of chapter 1. The Garden was not created on the 6th Day. It was created after the 7th day, but not 24 hours later. The 7th Day was not a 24 hour break. It was a Day of Adonai. What is the Day of the Lord to you? There was no sin, and no Satan around during that Day of Adonai. There was no death and decay. No wild plants nor weeds grew, nor was there a new plant to grow, until God planted the Garden as chapter 2 explains. Chapter 2 is a separate chronological Garden from the other 6 days. There were plural generations on earth during that 7th time period. The "them" did multiply as God told them to. It was not in the Garden, because the Garden was planted after that 7th Day of Adonai.

Saying there is a micro and macro view, comes from macro and micro evolution, and humans trying to justify the science that Satan teaches humans and the Word of God. The words macro and micro are not found in God's Word. Why use "them"? Why not just accept the "them" in Genesis 1 are the sons of God? They, plural, were male and female. How that works, God did not go into detail. It does not matter. Only one offspring of Adam, in a fallen corruptible body, was left on earth with his 3 sons, and 4 other females, after the Flood. The world before the Flood was destroyed. It was a new heaven and earth, and humans were only guaranteed to live out 120 years, and then die. No more long lives like trees, that lived for thousands of years.
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Oh please. I’m far from an evolutionist. What I am is not blind. And I don’t feel the need to shoehorn God’s word to fit what I need it to be.
And what YOU need to it be has Adam being created in Chapter one…being told to “be fruitful and multiple” even though..apparently he was still by his lonesome…so good luck to him on that. And then in Chapter 2 we see him being created again.
Sure. That makes TOTAL sense.
But I’m the one listening to Satans reason?

 

[Timtofly]

Regardless if it is Chapter 1,2 or 5, it still does not say that Eve was created on the 8th day. And my point still stands; Chapters 1 & 2 imply chronological retelling was not of highest importance in the narrative.

I never said it was the 8th day. It could have been the 58th day, we are not told. It was not before an 8th day is the point.

I never said the first 4 chapters of Genesis are chronological. They are not. Cain and Abel were born prior to Eve eating the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.