When and why will God end our world?

[Naomi25]

I agree with the above. I've always seen it that way. The idea that they were fallen angels is not found in the Bible, but it is found in the spurious Book of Enoch.

But there is also the term "sons of God" which throughout Biblical scripture points only to humans. The one place where it does not is a place where it's mentioning ben Elohiym (singular) being with God at the time of His creation. It's translated in the plural in our Bibles - sons of God:

Job 38:7 "when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

I'm not sure how many morning stars there are (there's only one that can be seen at the break of dawn), and Jesus called Himself the bright and morning star in the Revelation (Revelation 22:16).

ben elohiym is always in the singular though, even in verses where the context clearly speaks about the plural of it (sons of God).

Still, nowhere else in the Bible are we told angels were present at the time of God's creation of the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1-3 and John 1:1-3 mention only Christ, the Word of God. It's obvious why the Rabbis will not translate Job 38:7 in the singular (Morning Star and Son of God), but why do our translations?

& @Marty fox
I disagree with the idea that the ‘sons of God’ are men from Seth’s line. The ideas that I present briefly here are fair too intricate to go into at length, but if you’re at all interested, please read Michael Heiser’s book “Unseen Realm”, it covers the topic fully with biblical and scholarly detail.
That God has other ‘sons’ is not a unbiblical idea. In Psalms 82 we read:

Psalm 82
[1]God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
[2] “How long will you judge unjustly
and show partiality to the wicked? Selah
[3] Give justice to the weak and the fatherless;
maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.
[4] Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”
[5] They have neither knowledge nor understanding,
they walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
[6] I said, “You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you;
[7] nevertheless, like men you shall die,
and fall like any prince.”
[8] Arise, O God, judge the earth;
for you shall inherit all the nations!

We see here that God “Elohim” takes his place in the “divine council”…in ‘the midst of the gods’ …”elohim”…he holds judgement.
Some people have claimed that those being ‘judged’ are men of Israel given to rule…except…when were men of Israel ever given to ‘rule’ over the nations…whom the Most High will inherit after he judges these ‘sons’?
Instead, we ought to look to this verse:

Deuteronomy 32:8-9
[8] When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.
[9] But the LORD’s portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.

The Most High divided mankind, fixing the boarders, according to the number of ‘the sons of God’. Some translations put ‘sons of Israel’, however, this event is the Babel event. The dividing of the nations and fixing of the boarders happened BEFORE Israel was miraculously called and created by God.

When we thus consider these two passages, we see that God has indeed ‘sons of God’…elohim…about him. Elohim who were allotted the nations at Babel, and then fell into God’s judgment as they governed unwisely and ‘showed partiality to the wicked’. We see God telling them that although they are gods, they will die like men.
Indeed, we can see this idea…both of a divine council and of fallen members of it, found in Daniel alone:

Daniel 7:9-10
[9] “As I looked,
thrones were placed,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat;
his clothing was white as snow,
and the hair of his head like pure wool;
his throne was fiery flames;
its wheels were burning fire.
[10] A stream of fire issued
and came out from before him;
a thousand thousands served him,
and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him;
the court sat in judgment,
and the books were opened.

Daniel 10:13
[13] The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days, but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I was left there with the kings of Persia,

Daniel 10:20
[20] Then he said, “Do you know why I have come to you? But now I will return to fight against the prince of Persia; and when I go out, behold, the prince of Greece will come.


This is just a quick touching upon the topic. The debate is a lengthy one, which I doubt anyone really wants to get into. The point I’m trying to make is: the bible does indeed show that there is a ‘host’ of beings that rebelled…not just in a manner along with Satan. In fact, Jewish history tells us that the Jews believed the fall in the garden to be only 1 of three great incidents that made the world as bad as it is. The second two were the Nephilim…which yes, were seen as angelic/human offspring…and the rebellion at Babel…again angelic beings.
It may be easy to cast aspersions on the book of Enoch, but I suggest caution before totally casting it aside. Both Peter and Jude quote from it directly. This tells us that not only did those authors know and regard the book as historical knowledge to be used and, to a certain point, trusted, in their time, but believed using it in God’s word was a good idea. That ought to lead us to look at it as not cannon, not inspired, but as informative.
Lastly, we know, from many biblical texts, that while angels are spiritual beings in nature, they absolutely can, when they wanted to, take physical form. The ‘angel’ who wrestled with Jacob was pretty physical. Those who ate with Abraham. Gideon convinced an angelic visitor to prolong his stay so he could prepare food for him…which he did. And, of course, we know from Paul’s explanation of our ‘new spiritual bodies’…the one that Christ received at his resurrection and has even now…that “spiritual” does not necessarily mean “incorporeal”. Nowhere in scripture does it really say that spiritual forms cannot and do not take physical form to interact with physical things. In fact, we see them do it often. It’s only our silly notion of “ghosts” that tell us that spiritual beings cannot be corporeal at times.
As far as what Jesus said about “being like the angels who do not marry”…he did not say “because they cannot”. No…they do not. Angels who have NOT fallen, who remain in pure service in the Most High God, have no need or desire to do such things, and once we have reached the new heavens and earth, neither shall we. We shall still have physical bodies…I don’t imagine they will be neutered bodies. But we’ll have no need to ‘go forth and populate the earth’….God’s earthly family, full of people who made the free will decision to follow his Son, will already be there, from every tribe and nation, filling the earth, living among our heavenly brothers…the angels. God’s family will be complete.

 

[Naomi25]

I disagree. Only when you read "fallen angels impregnated human women" INTO Jude 1:6-7 (which is practicing eisegesis). The text does not say that.

The men of Sodom were not angels impregnating human women. They were perverted men who thought that the men who Lot was hosting were men. They did not know the men were angels.

Your eisegesis of scripture. Not scripture supporting what you want it to.

Much love!

@marks I'm saying Much Love! with the same motive of brotherly love as you.

I think, should we choose to start slinging ‘eisegesis’ about, we could see that aplenty in this conversation. The texts in question do not, unfortunately, give much detail.
I think the things left to us are other biblical uses of the terms, logic and historical references and extra-biblical texts. These, of course, do not have the weight of scripture, but just as we are guided by God’s word in viewing modern history, even ancient history, there is nothing forbidden or wrong in viewing Jewish history or literature through bibical light.

Genesis 6:1-4
[1] When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, [2] the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. [3] Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.” The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.

Now…if we wanted to get specific, would could also say that the text “does not say” that the ‘daughters of men’ are women from the line of Cain and the ‘sons of God’ are men from the line of Seth. That is, let’s be honest, quite a specific understanding of what the text says. It’s specifically delineating between two human lines. One might think it would be important to point why they were essentially different, as they were both human. Did Cain’s sin irrevocably taint his seed? The assumption being made is that it has…that it led to the birth of children who were…different. Elsewhere they are called ‘giants’, and indeed, “Nephilim” can be translated as giant, and considering its connection to ‘giant’ elsewhere, that seems the most logical translation.
Also: The text seems to imply that these ‘sons’ have the ability to “take” these daughters by force, and that the daughters of their own kind were not attractive. If these men were from the line of Seth and the women from the line of Cain, we must immediately question these facts at face value. The bible tells us that those in Cain’s line were forgers of iron and bronze. All we know about Seth’s linage was that “at that time, they began to call upon the Lord”. All the text permits is that Cain’s line has the forging of weapons, while Seth’s…who knows. So Cain’s would definitely have the means to protect their women…would Seth’s be able to take ’the daughters of men…as they chose’? And why would we assume that there was no attractive women among the line of Seth?
My point is: there is just as little ‘direct textual permission’ in this text that allows you to assume that the lines being spoken of here are of Seth and Cain. Indeed, when we look further in scripture at the term ‘sons of God’…as I pointed out in my previous post, Deut 32 and Psalm 82, we can see quite clearly that those references point to the sons of God being divine beings, not human men.

When Marks quoted this verse:

Jude 1:6-7
[6] And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—[7] just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

We must focus correctly on the “JUST AS” here, as it informs us as to which sin Jude is referring to. He is referencing the sin of the angels in Gen 6 angels, quoting 1 Enoch 1:9 to do so, and we can know this by the “just as”. The sin of Sodom and Gomorrah, Jude tells us was to “likewise indulge in sexual immorality and pursue unnatural desire”.
Now…if the angels kept in gloomy darkness were just those who rebelled and went with Satan were those Jude referred to, why bring up Sodom and Gomorrah at all? No…Jude deliberately links the angels sin TO the sins of sexual immorality and going after unnatural desires. It is NOT natural for humans and angels to be together.

There are many other points to this argument. But, again, my initial suggestion stands. Let’s not start slinging direct accusations of ‘eisegesis’, as it could be something slung back. There is plenty in scripture to make it an interesting conversation on both sides, and I’d hope no one gets dogmatic, regardless how convinced we are. I have found digging into this topic and finding out more on it has enriched my knowledge of God’s word and my love for it…and my hope is the conversation could for us all.

 

[Marty fox]

& @Marty fox
I disagree with the idea that the ‘sons of God’ are men from Seth’s line. The ideas that I present briefly here are fair too intricate to go into at length, but if you’re at all interested, please read Michael Heiser’s book “Unseen Realm”, it covers the topic fully with biblical and scholarly detail.
That God has other ‘sons’ is not a unbiblical idea. In Psalms 82 we read:

hed my knowledge of God’s word and my love for it…and my hope is the conversation could for us all.

Let’s see what the bible says about the sons of God.

Genesis 6:2
2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.

Who does Jesus say married at that time?

Matthew 24:38
38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark

Yes it was people who were marring not fallen angles

 

[Zao is life]

…as I pointed out in my previous post, Deut 32 and Psalm 82, we can see quite clearly that those references point to the sons of God being divine beings, not human men.

John 10
33 The Jews answered Him, saying, We do not stone you for a good work, but for blasphemy, and because you, being a man, make yourself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Has it not written in your law, "I said, You are gods?"
35 If He called those gods with whom the Word of God was, and the Scripture cannot be broken,
36 do you say of Him whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world, You blaspheme, because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me.
38 But if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works so that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.

We must focus correctly on the “JUST AS” here

I think the issue over scriptures like the ones being discussed in this thread is we all tend to focus on what we choose to focus on. For me it's not a case of being dogmatic about it, but a case of not believing anything that I have to look outside of scripture to find proof of.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

To get to the answer of this question we need to go to the only true source the bible and see when and why did God judge the world before. The only time this happened was back in Genesis chapters 4, 5 and 6. There is much to learn about the end times in these three chapters more than most people think. The main part of the text is found in Genesis chapter 6:1-8

Genesis 6:1-8
when human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.”

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

Many people believe that the sons of God were fallen angels who fornicated and had children with female human beings thus making the world so evil that God decided to destroy civilization. Could this be? Could spiritual beings actually fornicate with human beings and have offspring even though Paul shows us in 1 Corinthians 15 that the heavenly bodies have a different splendor than human bodies? Would God really allow this to happen?

I believe that the sons of God were the faithful sons from the line of Seth and that the daughters of men were the unfaithful daughters from the unfaithful line of Cain.

In these three chapters of Genesis we see that the descendants of Seth were faithful to God while the descendants of Cain were unfaithful. What we read about the descendants of Cain is the great accomplishments they made which is not bad in its self but it is if it’s their highest priority. When we read about Seth's descendants we see that they were great men of God who had many children and lived long lives but this was not attributed to Cain’s descendants.

God warns the faithful people many times to not mix with the unfaithful in the Old Testament and the reason for this is to keep the faithful from being corrupted. We read that one of the reasons that the sons of God were attracted to the daughters of men was because of their beauty not because of love so the reason that they fornicated with them was for lust not love.

But there must be more to the reason that the sons of God were attracted to the daughters of men because there would also have been many beautiful women from the line of Seth.

Lamech gives us the reason for this in Genesis chapter 5

Genesis 5:28-29
28 When Lamech had lived 182 years, he had a son. 29 He named him Noah[c] and said, “He will comfort us in the labor and painful toil of our hands caused by the ground the LORD has cursed.”

The faithful people of God began to lose faith and complain about the pain and burden of working a cursed soil. Lamech named his son Noah which means rest as he thought that Noah would bring his people comfort and rest.

What the daughters of men offered the sons of God was Autonomy

Autonomy

1. The right or condition of self-government.

A self-governing country or region.

• Freedom from external control or influence; independence.

Self-government · independence · self-rule · home rule · sovereignty ·

The daughters of men offered the sons of God the autonomy they desired. The sons of God saw the great accomplishments and advances of the sons of men. The sons of men lived a self-governed and independent life aside from God. This enticed the sons of God so they intermarried with the daughters of men and put aside the ways of the Lord and lived their own self determined lives.

We see the first example of autonomy in the Garden of Eden with Eve. Eve decided that she wanted more than the life God had determined for her she also wanted to be just like God. Satan knew this and tempted Eve and told her that she could have this if she ate the forbidden fruit.

How much different are we the church today? While the world is full of people living their own independent autonomous lives away from God, God’s predetermined choices for them have become negatives like race, gender, sexual orientation, child bearing and child raising. What God determined for them becomes non spiritual and non-important but is the church much different today?

We the church need to remember that our children and our families are watching us. We need to be good stewards with what God has given us including our children and make the right life choices. We only have a few short impactful years with our children and the lack of good Godly examples as well as being influenced by worldly views are reasons that the church youth today are leaving the church in high numbers when they graduate from school. The autonomy of the world is becoming very attractive to them and the conforming is so slow and so subtle that we conform before we realize it and it is a struggle and sometimes too late to turn back.

The seed of the serpent is independence from God which is attractive to the world and the seed of God in constant dependence on him. One way God keeps us dependent on Him is through our bodies as our bodies need clothes, food and shelter to survive this keeps us dependent on God which keeps us spiritually close to Him thus our bodies and our souls work together.

Back in Genesis over time while dwelling with the unfaithful the faithful conformed to the ways of man until the faithful came down to just one man Noah. The ways of the Lord was lost as the people lived for themselves and not for the Lord thus the whole world except Noah became wicked and filled with violence. The reason that God decided to destroy the human race with the flood was not because the world was so evil it always has been evil and still is today the reason was due to the conforming ways to the self-determined Lives of the faithful and it came down to just one man Noah.

The world today looks very much like it did back before the flood and the boat has left the shore and it’s not turning back just like it didn’t in Noah’s day. God will still reach people as He still extends His grace and mercy just like He did with Noah’s family.

God protected the line of the faithful throughout the bible and still continues to do so today and Jesus promised that the gates of hell will not overcome the church. God will step in and save the church before it’s overcome. I believe that Genesis chapters 4, 5 and 6 serves as warning for the church and the church today needs to depend more on God and stop conforming and live the life that God has determined for us. This very same reason for the flood will be the very same reason that God will destroy the world in the future by fire.

The faithful are once again slowly conforming to the ways of the world and I believe when the church stops growing we hold back the advancement of Holy Spirit and we release satan to influence ours and others lives. When this happens we the church, the camp of God’s people, the city God loves find ourselves out numbered and surrounded by the autonomous people of the world and then God will act.

Revelation 20:7-9
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

Romans 12:1-2
1Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

When? At His appointed time!

Why? Because He has the absolute right to do so!

 

[Naomi25]

Let’s see what the bible says about the sons of God.

Genesis 6:2
2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.

Who does Jesus say married at that time?

Matthew 24:38
38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark

Yes it was people who were marring not fallen angles

I’m sorry, but that simply doesn’t hold its own weight. Were people getting married then? I would absolutely assume so, that was the mandate from the garden “go forth and multiply”. But that does not mean…ERGO and SO FORTH, that Gen 6:2 MUST and ONLY be speaking of humans marrying humans. Because it does not state that, does it? And it would hardly be a remarkable event…one producing giant clans…for people to marry people and have…more people.

You seem to be arguing that because marriage existed back then, and because Jesus pointed out that “in the days of Noah” people were eating and drinking and marrying (which means doing normal every day things, by the way, if we take the passage in correct context), that ALL marriage HAD to be between humans.
That does nothing to define ‘sons of God’. It rather neatly ignores it. As it ignores the passages where the bible would seem to obviously point to the ‘sons of God’ to being ‘elohim’….members of God’s divine council.

 

[Naomi25]

John 10
33 The Jews answered Him, saying, We do not stone you for a good work, but for blasphemy, and because you, being a man, make yourself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Has it not written in your law, "I said, You are gods?"
35 If He called those gods with whom the Word of God was, and the Scripture cannot be broken,
36 do you say of Him whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world, You blaspheme, because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me.
38 But if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works so that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.

Hi, thanks for your reply. I believe this passage is widely misunderstood. I’ll be quoting heavily from Michael Heiser in my reply, as his work has shaped my understanding here.
From what I understand, most people look at this passage in John and think Jesus is basically saying: “God is calling Jewish folks gods…so if people can claim to be gods, so can I.”
Surely we must understand that this is a weak argument from the Lord of Hosts?! He’s just claimed he and the Father are one…he’s the most articulate and wise person in the world. And we honestly think “if you are, so am I” is the best rebuttal he can come up with? I think not!

Michael Heiser writes:
“I propose that Jesus knew the elohim of Psalm 82 were not human, and that Jesus was in fact asserting his own unique ontological oneness with the Father. The human elohim view derives from two assumptions brought to the text: (1) that it is required by the assumed impossibility of there being other elohim because of Judeo-Christian monotheism; and (2) that the phrase “to whom the word of God came” refers to the Jews who received the law at Sinai (i.e., the Pharisees’ forefathers).

I would suggest that what first needs to be done is to come to terms with what is meant by “the word of God” and who it is that receives that word in Psalm 82:6-7: I said, ‘You are gods (elohim ), even sons of the Most High (beney-'elyon), all of you; nevertheless, like humans you will die, and fall like any prince.’ The speaker (“I”) in the passage is the God of Israel, the God who is standing in the council in 82:1 among the elohim . God announces that the elohim of the council are his sons, but because of their corruption (vv. 2-5), they will lose their immortality. I believe that Jesus was referring to this utterance itself when he quoted the psalm, not the Jewish nation receiving the law at Sinai or the revelation that would become the Old Testament.

To illustrate the difference in the views:
Common Interpretation /Jesus’ strategy assumes elohim are HUMAN: The “word of God that came” = revelation from God at Sinai, or the entire OT “to whom the word of God came” = the Jews at Sinai, or the Jews generally.
Result = the Jews are the “sons of the Most High” and elohim— so Jesus can call himself an elohim as well, since he’s a Jew, too.
My view / Jesus’ strategy assumes elohim are DIVINE: The “word of God that came” = the utterance itself in Psalm 82:6 – the pronouncement from God “to whom the word of God came” = the elohim of the divine council in 82:1
Result = The Jews are not elohim, and Jesus reminds his enemies that their Scriptures say there are other elohim who are divine sons—and this on the heels of declaring himself one with the Father (John 10:30) puts him in the position of not only claiming divinity as a son of the Most High, but by claiming to be above the sons of God since he is one with the Father.

In other words, Jesus appeals to sons of God who are MORE THAN HUMAN as his prooftext for defending his claim that, by calling himself the son of God he is more than a man (and that's very obviously the way the Jews took what he said). But by ALSO saying he was equal with the father (John 10:30) and that the Father was "in him" (see my discussion of the Name theology in Exod 23:20-23 for the backdrop to that phrase) and he was in the Father, he goes beyond claiming to be more than a man on equal par to the elohim of the divine council. He casts himself as Lord of the council -- God himself.”

. I think the issue over scriptures like the ones being discussed in this thread is we all tend to focus on what we choose to focus on. For me it's not a case of being dogmatic about it, but a case of not believing anything that I have to look outside of scripture to find proof of.

I’d agree that anything one needs to find outside of scripture to ‘prove’ would need to be viewed spuriously….but I’m not sure that’s the case here. I think there’s plenty of biblical proof. The extra-biblical texts fill out the picture a bit, just like I’d say early church history does for us. It’s interesting, certainly, but not essential.
As far as what we focus on in the passages themselves…I’d say all of them are important…its all God’s word. But at times, certain words determining context can be overlooked…I was attempting to show that the verse in question was, indeed, applicable.

 

[Marty fox]

I’m sorry, but that simply doesn’t hold its own weight. Were people getting married then? I would absolutely assume so, that was the mandate from the garden “go forth and multiply”. But that does not mean…ERGO and SO FORTH, that Gen 6:2 MUST and ONLY be speaking of humans marrying humans. Because it does not state that, does it? And it would hardly be a remarkable event…one producing giant clans…for people to marry people and have…more people.

You seem to be arguing that because marriage existed back then, and because Jesus pointed out that “in the days of Noah” people were eating and drinking and marrying (which means doing normal every day things, by the way, if we take the passage in correct context), that ALL marriage HAD to be between humans.
That does nothing to define ‘sons of God’. It rather neatly ignores it. As it ignores the passages where the bible would seem to obviously point to the ‘sons of God’ to being ‘elohim’….members of God’s divine council.

Well let’s read this below and see what angered God

Genesis 6:1-8
when human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.”

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

When we read these verses above we see that the context is humans not fallen angels just read verse three and see that the lord’s spirit will not contend with humans. Then in verse five we see that the lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become. Then in verse seven that the lord is going to wipe the human race from the face of the earth.

The context is humans not fallen angels and the message is to not conform to the ways of the world.

 

[Naomi25]

Well let’s read this below and see what angered God

Genesis 6:1-8
when human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.”

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

When we read these verses above we see that the context is humans not fallen angels just read verse three and see that the lord’s spirit will not contend with humans. Then in verse five we see that the lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become. Then in verse seven that the lord is going to wipe the human race from the face of the earth.

The context is humans not fallen angels and the message is to not conform to the ways of the world.

I suppose if you were going to read only this passage in a vacuum…and then only focus on the parts that specifically mention humans…then…yes. Yes we could conclude the context is humans.

Let’s just look first, at this passage:

Jude 1:6-7
[6] And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—[7] just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Jude gives us no room to wiggle here. He clearly links angelic sin…angelic fall…TO similar sins found in Sodom and Gomorrah. We cannot simply say this is a reference to the angels who fell with Satan….a warriors army fighting against God’s righteous angels. No! Jude tells us that these angels are kept in chains of gloomy darkness, their sins “just as” Sodom and Gomorrah, “which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire”.
Indeed, Jude is so insistent on the issue, he pushes it twice; “Just as”….”likewise”.
If this incident is NOT the Gen 6 account…when else might we expect that angels have sinned sexually? And…what sort of sexual sin would be ‘unnatural’ for them, do you think? Jesus had already told us that angels “in heaven” do not have sex. That leaves fallen angels sinning with one another…like kind with like kind….or angels with humans.

IF we take this passage, and we hold it up against Psalm 82, where the “sons of God” are clearly NOT human…they are described as ‘elohim’…as members of a ‘divine council’ who have sinned against the ‘Most High’ and are being judged, then we also see that the human interpretation is not strong…certainly not probable.

Lastly…you claim it makes sense for it to be about humans…to show that the ‘context’ is to ‘not conform to the ways of the world’. While I agree that is a teaching the bible has in various places, I’m not sure that is the best, or right, teaching to take from this passage or particular events. Consider this passage:

Numbers 13:32-33
[32] So they brought to the people of Israel a bad report of the land that they had spied out, saying, “The land, through which we have gone to spy it out, is a land that devours its inhabitants, and all the people that we saw in it are of great height. [33] And there we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak, who come from the Nephilim), and we seemed to ourselves like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them.”

Here we have clear reference to the Nephilim being giants. Big, scary dudes. The ‘sons of Anak’. There’s a few of them. Following on from this event, as Israel wanders in the desert and then settles in the land afterwards, we see God declaring war against these ‘giant clans’. We see them called various things, “Anakim, Rephaim”…sometimes “Amorites”. Recall one famous giant…Goliath? References to giant clans and the Anakim, Rephaim pop up all the way through Joshua. Even David does some mopping up. God is clearly declaring war against these beings.
Scholar Dr Michael Heiser posits that “The motivation is inextricably linked to the idea that rival gods seek to prevent Yahweh’s people from re-establishing the kingdom of God on earth.”
Indeed, we can look at the rebellion of the angels, as they ‘took’ human women and ‘came into them’ as a direct form of treason. These angels were attempting to ‘make in their own image’…to beget their own offspring to set up their own Kingdoms, so that they might be like ‘the Most High’. Not unlike Satan.

Thus, while “do not conform to the ways of this world” is a wise message, I believe what Gen 6 is portraying is another event of cosmic treason that explains why God had his people systematically slaughter their way through people groups. We know and accept Satan’s interference in trying to halt Christ’s coming into this world…we seem to miss the clear references throughout the OT to all these ‘bastard’ clans that did their very best to wipe out God’s people…all from the source of angelic rebellion in Gen 6.

 

[MatthewG]

The only end of the world is the end of ones life.

The world is of the earthly nature; made from earth are you and me. Flesh given soul with-in, breathing and live. Death comes the blood flow stops, the soul leaves this world, back towards God you go.

End of the world.

 

[Zao is life]

Hi, thanks for your reply. I believe this passage is widely misunderstood. I’ll be quoting heavily from Michael Heiser in my reply, as his work has shaped my understanding here.
From what I understand, most people look at this passage in John and think Jesus is basically saying: “God is calling Jewish folks gods…so if people can claim to be gods, so can I.”
Surely we must understand that this is a weak argument from the Lord of Hosts?! He’s just claimed he and the Father are one…he’s the most articulate and wise person in the world. And we honestly think “if you are, so am I” is the best rebuttal he can come up with? I think not!

Michael Heiser writes:
“I propose that Jesus knew the elohim of Psalm 82 were not human, and that Jesus was in fact asserting his own unique ontological oneness with the Father. The human elohim view derives from two assumptions brought to the text: (1) that it is required by the assumed impossibility of there being other elohim because of Judeo-Christian monotheism; and (2) that the phrase “to whom the word of God came” refers to the Jews who received the law at Sinai (i.e., the Pharisees’ forefathers).

I would suggest that what first needs to be done is to come to terms with what is meant by “the word of God” and who it is that receives that word in Psalm 82:6-7: I said, ‘You are gods (elohim ), even sons of the Most High (beney-'elyon), all of you; nevertheless, like humans you will die, and fall like any prince.’ The speaker (“I”) in the passage is the God of Israel, the God who is standing in the council in 82:1 among the elohim . God announces that the elohim of the council are his sons, but because of their corruption (vv. 2-5), they will lose their immortality. I believe that Jesus was referring to this utterance itself when he quoted the psalm, not the Jewish nation receiving the law at Sinai or the revelation that would become the Old Testament.

To illustrate the difference in the views:
Common Interpretation /Jesus’ strategy assumes elohim are HUMAN: The “word of God that came” = revelation from God at Sinai, or the entire OT “to whom the word of God came” = the Jews at Sinai, or the Jews generally.
Result = the Jews are the “sons of the Most High” and elohim— so Jesus can call himself an elohim as well, since he’s a Jew, too.
My view / Jesus’ strategy assumes elohim are DIVINE: The “word of God that came” = the utterance itself in Psalm 82:6 – the pronouncement from God “to whom the word of God came” = the elohim of the divine council in 82:1
Result = The Jews are not elohim, and Jesus reminds his enemies that their Scriptures say there are other elohim who are divine sons—and this on the heels of declaring himself one with the Father (John 10:30) puts him in the position of not only claiming divinity as a son of the Most High, but by claiming to be above the sons of God since he is one with the Father.

In other words, Jesus appeals to sons of God who are MORE THAN HUMAN as his prooftext for defending his claim that, by calling himself the son of God he is more than a man (and that's very obviously the way the Jews took what he said). But by ALSO saying he was equal with the father (John 10:30) and that the Father was "in him" (see my discussion of the Name theology in Exod 23:20-23 for the backdrop to that phrase) and he was in the Father, he goes beyond claiming to be more than a man on equal par to the elohim of the divine council. He casts himself as Lord of the council -- God himself.”





I’d agree that anything one needs to find outside of scripture to ‘prove’ would need to be viewed spuriously….but I’m not sure that’s the case here. I think there’s plenty of biblical proof. The extra-biblical texts fill out the picture a bit, just like I’d say early church history does for us. It’s interesting, certainly, but not essential.
As far as what we focus on in the passages themselves…I’d say all of them are important…its all God’s word. But at times, certain words determining context can be overlooked…I was attempting to show that the verse in question was, indeed, applicable.

It's good there are two different viewpoints about this (because one of them is correct), and I'm not claiming either that mine is correct, or that my view is incorrect, only expressing why I feel uncomfortable with the angels and human women idea.

There's a lot of evidence for the doctrine of the Trinity, for example. I would challenge anyone who says the Bible does not imply the Trinity. But for me that isn't the case with the fallen angels idea, so I err on the side of caution (but maybe only because the idea does not sit comfortably with me - feelings are not a yardstick that we can measure truth by).

 

[Truman]

Why would God end the world? Look around you...why wouldn't He?
But He knows just how to handle things...nothing is too difficult for Him!
"Master of the Universe, Yahweh-Elohim is His name!" Lol
I seem to believe that at the end of King Yeshua's Millennial reign, He will destroy creation and make a new one.
After 7,000 years, the eighth millennium will signify a new beginning.
We are going to witness it, I think. That will be awesome! Maybe we can help, too!
I wonder what, if any, will be the type of mighty machines He uses! Lol

 

[Truth7t7]

I seem to believe that at the end of King Yeshua's Millennial reign, He will destroy creation and make a new one.
After 7,000 years, the eighth millennium will signify a new beginning.
We are going to witness it, I think. That will be awesome! Maybe we can help, too!
I wonder what, if any, will be the type of mighty machines He uses! Lol

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation?

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ?

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Truth7t7]

Why would God end the world? Look around you...why wouldn't He?
But He knows just how to handle things...nothing is too difficult for Him!
"Master of the Universe, Yahweh-Elohim is His name!" Lol
I seem to believe that at the end of King Yeshua's Millennial reign, He will destroy creation and make a new one.
After 7,000 years, the eighth millennium will signify a new beginning.
We are going to witness it, I think. That will be awesome! Maybe we can help, too!
I wonder what, if any, will be the type of mighty machines He uses! Lol

As scripture clearly teaches below in 1 Corinthinas 15:23-24 , when Jesus Christ returns then comes (The End)

Many disregard (Then Cometh The End) as they desire to see a mortal Millennial Kingdom on earth, after the coming of Jesus Christ

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, not a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as many falsely claim

(Then Cometh The End)

(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:21-26 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[Truman]

In your opinion...

 

[Truth7t7]

In your opinion...

More like, Gods words before your eyes in truth

A Millennial Kingdom on this earth is a fabricated fairy tale of man

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[Truman]

God's word is ever before my eyes, and His Spirit guides me into all truth.

 

[Naomi25]

It's good there are two different viewpoints about this (because one of them is correct), and I'm not claiming either that mine is correct, or that my view is incorrect, only expressing why I feel uncomfortable with the angels and human women idea.

There's a lot of evidence for the doctrine of the Trinity, for example. I would challenge anyone who says the Bible does not imply the Trinity. But for me that isn't the case with the fallen angels idea, so I err on the side of caution (but maybe only because the idea does not sit comfortably with me - feelings are not a yardstick that we can measure truth by).

You know…I feel exactly the same way! I think the argument FOR the angelic sin is strong, but goodness, I’m not going to get upset over it, nor claim I have to be right over it. It changes nothing essential, like salvation. Personally, I find it answers some interesting, and tricky, passages and references in scripture, and I enjoy that…I get satisfaction in that. And while I do enjoy talking about it, I refuse to break fellowship over it.

 

[Timtofly]

I’m sorry, but that simply doesn’t hold its own weight. Were people getting married then? I would absolutely assume so, that was the mandate from the garden “go forth and multiply”. But that does not mean…ERGO and SO FORTH, that Gen 6:2 MUST and ONLY be speaking of humans marrying humans. Because it does not state that, does it? And it would hardly be a remarkable event…one producing giant clans…for people to marry people and have…more people.

You seem to be arguing that because marriage existed back then, and because Jesus pointed out that “in the days of Noah” people were eating and drinking and marrying (which means doing normal every day things, by the way, if we take the passage in correct context), that ALL marriage HAD to be between humans.
That does nothing to define ‘sons of God’. It rather neatly ignores it. As it ignores the passages where the bible would seem to obviously point to the ‘sons of God’ to being ‘elohim’….members of God’s divine council.

Adam was a son of God, and the Garden, Paradise was God's temple on earth. When Adam disobeyed God, he physically died. He was given a corruptible body instead of an incorruptible. The difference between the two lines are just that and only that. Adam was the father of all corruptible flesh. It was the fact that the incorruptible sons of God were producing giants in the corruptible bodies of Adam's flesh and blood. Seth was born in Adam's fallen image. There were many sons of God created on day 6, and since Adam's family could no longer live in God's temple, they lived among the sons of God.

"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:"

Seth was born with a corruptible body and sin nature. That was not said of Cain and Abel. Nor was Cain considered dead, because of his deeds. Cain was marked so the sons of God could tell him apart from all the sons of God.

Looking at extra biblical sources gives a sinful human's perspective mixed in with lies from Satan. So while it gives us what humans may have thought, it was not evidence of the full truth. There is enough truth from God's Word to give a plausible explanation, even if it goes against thousands of years of human traditional thought.

Yes sexual immorality is part of the judgment, but Paul also says to not be unequally yoked in life and marriage, believers with non believers. Lot took his family into a place where there were no other believers. Prior to the Flood, the sons of God without sin, produced offspring with fallen sinful humanity, introducing perfection into imperfection. After the Flood all flesh was fallen sinful flesh because of Noah, and his 3 sons. The wives though could have been from those giant offspring, not just solely pure descendants of Adam through Seth.

All ancient thought and religious belief centered around this separation of sons of God mixing in with the offspring of Noah or those who populated the earth from Noah's 3 sons and their wives. Angels are not spirit beings. They are more than just air. They are the stars in the firmament. The sons of God were the image of God to rule on earth. Are there still sons of God saved from the earth prior to the Flood? Yes, some were still alive in the narrative of Job, unless Job was a story prior to the Flood. So angels do not have to be these son's of God, when there is a logical and plausible explanation from God's Word. When a third of the stars, walked off their job, they were immediately imprisoned in darkness, waiting to be released at the sounding of the 5th Trumpet. They do not come back in some human form, like current angels appear as human to give humans a particular message from God. They come back as physical vengeful beings.

 

[Naomi25]

Adam was a son of God, and the Garden, Paradise was God's temple on earth. When Adam disobeyed God, he physically died. He was given a corruptible body instead of an incorruptible. The difference between the two lines are just that and only that. Adam was the father of all corruptible flesh. It was the fact that the incorruptible sons of God were producing giants in the corruptible bodies of Adam's flesh and blood. Seth was born in Adam's fallen image. There were many sons of God created on day 6, and since Adam's family could no longer live in God's temple, they lived among the sons of God.

Whoa! Now, wait on! Talk about finding things in the text that just isn’t there!
Please…explain to me in detail WHERE in Genesis, or the rest of scripture, you find anything that corroborates the idea that there were ‘MANY’ sons created on day 6, not just Adam…and it was then Adams ‘fallen’ line who was breeding with these other, unfallen sons….
Because, to my knowledge, the only ‘lines’ mentioned in scripture is Cain’s and Seths. And while it might be logically feasible to say other people had to exist outside the garden…it doesn’t say that and assuming they were there and were incorruptible…is making assertions the bible doesn’t allow you to.

I think we’ll deal with this before I even touch the rest.