When Is Flesh Man Judged To Perish?

[Keraz]

I hold to the truths of solid scripture.

When we honestly examine the biblical record, it becomes clear that the so-called “lost” tribes of Israel are not really lost at all. Rather, it is their identity as Israel that has been lost. Thus, as we search for the “lost” tribes, we should not look for a Sabbath-keeping people who call themselves Israel. Indeed, as the exiled northern ten tribes wandered from the Middle East, they were known by other names; such as Cimmerians, Scythians, Celts, Saxons, etc. names historians and researchers have not linked to ancient Israel, mostly because it doesn’t fit with their beliefs. They say the Western peoples are Caucasians and ether ignore how they got to the Caucasus region, or tout fanciful stories of Neanderthals and fossils.



When Jesus sent the twelve out to preach the Gospel, He said: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter into a city of the Samaritans [Gentiles who displaced the northern tribes]; but go instead to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Matthew 10:5-6, Matthew 15:24

Jesus and His disciples, incl Josephus, knew the whereabouts of the “lost” northern tribes—and that they, in fact, were the “house of Israel.” Why do we hear almost nothing of the original apostles after about 60 AD? After preaching the Gospel to the Jews and being rejected by them, the apostles took the Gospel to the northern tribes where they had become re-established in new lands. During the years immediately preceding the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, we hear nothing of Peter and James? Why? They went, as Christ instructed, to the “lost” tribes of Israel and the Gospel was accepted by them; now the Christianized Western nations. Jesus’ Mission WAS successful!



Prior to the House of Israel going into captivity, the prophet Amos quoted God as saying: Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are on the sinful [Israelite] kingdom, and I will erase it from the face of the earth [it would disappear as a kingdom]; except that I will not completely destroy the house of Jacob [Israel],’ says the

LORD. ‘For lo, I will command, and I will shake the house of Israel among all the nations, as one shakes with a sieve, yet not a grain shall fall to the earth.

That is, the Israelites as a people would not be utterly lost or destroyed. Amos 9:8-9

As a nation, the northern kingdom vanished in captivity and was later “sifted” among numerous countries. But it was not utterly subsumed by them. This truth shows how amazing God’s plan is; His chosen people hidden amongst the nations, who will fulfil the prayer of Solomon: 2 Chronicles 6:36-39

Writing during the Jews’ captivity in Babylon, (135 years after the fall of Samaria) Daniel refers as well to those Israelites who were afar off, scattered throughout many nations, Daniel 9:7, but not lost to God.

After suffering decades of harsh punishment in captivity, significant numbers of Israelites would migrate toward the northwest, re-establishing themselves in various areas. Over time they would re-emerge intact, yet largely ignorant of their own true identity!

Contrary to misinformed scholars and those with another agenda, the ancient House of Israel is not “irretrievably lost”—for God has decreed that they would remain His people. In fact, their modern descendants are the majority in several of today’s nations. Their exile is for a decreed time: Ezekiel 4:4; 390 years X by 7, Leviticus 26:18
Moreover, the House of Israel is yet to be reunited with the House of Judah in the latter days in the, as yet unfulfilled prophecy of Ezekiel 37:16-22. They will go together to live in all of the holy Land. Jeremiah 50:4-5
Today, they are people from every race, nation and language, plus just the remnant of the Messianic Jews. John sees them in Revelation 7:9-14, also mentioned in Isaiah 66:18b-21

 

[Jay Ross]

@Keraz it seems to me that you miss seeing what is plainly written in the original text. In Jeremiah_50-51 it speaks of two periods of time where a king from the north will come to desolate the land. The first is the Grecian Empire and around 120 BC the land of Babylon was made desolate and was devastated by the Grecian Empire and the people of Babylon when as exiles out of the Land of the Chaldeans, until Babylon was remembered once more around 1926 when the victors of the spoils of WW1 between them established once more a kingdom within the Land of the Chaldeans. Then around 90 years later another king of the north lead many nations into the land of the Chaldeans and conquered it but instead of destroying the nation in the land of the Chaldeans, this king lead a coalition of nations bent on healing the land with democracy.

But to see this we have to understand that what is to happen in Babylon will occur during the "time that Israel and Judah come together, weeping as they come; and they shall seek the Lord their God. They shall ask the way to Zion, with faces turned toward it, saying, 'Come, let us join ourselves to the Lord in an everlasting covenant which will never be forgotten."

We also have to be able to see the time stamp of a little longer than two thousand years found in verse 39 which is the length of the time set aside for the Land of the Chaldeans to lie devastated and desolated.

Also in Ezekiel_37 God also talks about planting Israel and Judah in good soil so that they can draw nourishment from Him where they are living in the earth where they were scattered too.

You can believe that you hold to the truth of solid scripture, where as I hold to the fact that God is taking those same scriptures and revealing a very different picture of understanding for me to write about.

The passing of time will eventually reveal who is closest to the truth within our present understanding and whether or not we both need to change the peg on which we hang our hat on.

Shalom

PS: - Remember Jeremiah wrote chapters 50-51 of the book of Jeremiah around 19 years after Daniel penned the Statue prophecy. Both prophecies must be read together to make sense of what is revealed in them.

 

[Davy]

There will be a vast multitude who will go to live in all of the holy Land, soon after the Sixth Seal disaster has cleared and cleansed that entire area. Deuteronomy 32:34-43
John sees them there in Revelation 7:9-14. Proved by Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7
They are people; all the faithful Christians from every race, nation and language, joined by the faithful remnant of the Jews.

That timing is not correct per the flow of God's Word.

The "great multitude" of Rev.7 represent the believing Gentiles who are sealed to go through the great tribulation. The whole Rev.7 chapter is about the sealing of God's servants for the end. The reason why John is asked where they came out of is because of their having overcome the tribulation through Christ's Blood, and thus are seen standing before Christ's throne (on earth) in Jerusalem on earth, which of course is Millennial timing when that happens, after Christ's 2nd coming to end the tribulation.

Revelation 13:7 and Daniel 7:25 is great tribulation timing. It is the time of rule on earth by the "another beast" of that chapter. It is the timing of the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period. It is the latter 3.5 years period of the Daniel 9:27 "one week".

 

[Davy]

So then, who are the chosen people since Jesus came? John 15:14-16, 1 Peter 2:9, Ephesians :11-14

The Lord will motivate His faithful people, Christians from every race, nation and language to gather in His holy Land, all as prophesied.
If you insist that those who like to call themselves Jews are still the special chosen people, then you are in error, as many prophesies tell us of their virtual demise and only a remnant will survive.

I agree that God scattered the ten northern tribes of Israel among the Gentiles, and they became lost to the world and to the Jews. And that they were captive in the lands of Assyria and north and west, and have been identified by some scholars in the Assyrian tablets as the Cimmerian and Scythian tribes that migrated westward around the Black Sea and Caucasus Mountains, becoming known as 'Caucasians', and would make up the majority of the Caucasian peoples of Asia Minor and Europe. I consider it the fulfillment of the Genesis 35 prophecy to Jacob that his seed would become "a company of nations", and to Ephraim in Genesis 48 that his seed would become "a multitude of nations". And those nations would be Christian nations blessed by Christ Jesus.

It's only the Jews of the old southern kingdom of Judah that are returning to today's nation of Israel, not the ten lost tribes. There were some small remnants of the ten tribes that refused Jeroboams golden calf worship and left the north to side with the house of Judah, but that was not the majority of the northern tribes. Those orthodox Jews in today's nation of Israel will in majority be deceived by the coming Antichrist/false-Messiah for the trib timing.

 

[Keraz]

That timing is not correct per the flow of God's Word.

The "great multitude" of Rev.7 represent the believing Gentiles who are sealed to go through the great tribulation. The whole Rev.7 chapter is about the sealing of God's servants for the end. The reason why John is asked where they came out of is because of their having overcome the tribulation through Christ's Blood, and thus are seen standing before Christ's throne (on earth) in Jerusalem on earth, which of course is Millennial timing when that happens, after Christ's 2nd coming to end the tribulation.

Revelation 13:7 and Daniel 7:25 is great tribulation timing. It is the time of rule on earth by the "another beast" of that chapter. It is the timing of the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period. It is the latter 3.5 years period of the Daniel 9:27 "one week".

The 'flow of God's Word'?
Revelation 7 follows straight after Rev 6:12-17, the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. Plainly, the great tribulation referred to in verse 14, is that great ordeal, as my REBible puts it.
God's servants are gathered before Jesus Returns, as many prophesies show, incl Rev 13:7 and Daniel 7:25, which prove they are in the holy Land when the AC conquers them, at the start of the final 3 1/2 years.
Thanks for agreement on the ten Northern tribes, who are still scattered among the nations, now mostly the Christian peoples. They will migrate to all of the holy Land, soon after the Sixth Seal event has cleared and cleansed all that area. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10. Psalms 107 gives the story of how God will help them in that migration. Also Isaiah 66:18b-21

 

[Davy]

The 'flow of God's Word'?
Revelation 7 follows straight after Rev 6:12-17, the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. Plainly, the great tribulation referred to in verse 14, is that great ordeal, as my REBible puts it.

Revelation 7 is a whole other view and timeline John is being shown. It is error to think the Revelation chapters all flow in the order they were shown John, and that he wrote them down.

Instead, one must understand the events John was shown, and by that understand their proper order, regardless of the numbering of the chapters. For example, the end of Rev.6 was just speaking of the day of Christ's return when the deceived will wish to hide from His wrath, so it's easy to know that is about the day of His second coming; yet Rev.7 begins about a time before that, even telling the four angels to hold the four winds from blowing until the servants of God are sealed in their foreheads.

God's servants are gathered before Jesus Returns, as many prophesies show, incl Rev 13:7 and Daniel 7:25, which prove they are in the holy Land when the AC conquers them, at the start of the final 3 1/2 years.

Not so. The Rev.13:7 and Daniel 7:25 events are when the Church is still on earth, within the 42 months of the dragon's reign as mentioned there in Rev.13. That's the latter 3.5 years of the Daniel "one week" prophecy, which is the great tribulation timing. The great tribulation is not just going to be in Jerusalem only; the dragon will reign over the whole... world, all peoples and nations, as written there in that Rev.13:4-8 Scripture. It even says in verse 8 that all on earth, except Christ's elect, will worship that dragon. It's pointing to the one-world beast kingdom that Rev.13:1-2 described. And at Rev.13:11 it is talking about its beast king, called "another beast" there, but speaks as the dragon.

Thanks for agreement on the ten Northern tribes, who are still scattered among the nations, now mostly the Christian peoples. They will migrate to all of the holy Land, soon after the Sixth Seal event has cleared and cleansed all that area. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10. Psalms 107 gives the story of how God will help them in that migration. Also Isaiah 66:18b-21

What I see is Jesus coming on the 7th Trumpet, 7th Vial, and latter part of the 6th Seal to gather His Church which is also the time of the resurrection, and going to Jerusalem per Zechariah 14, on... "the day of the Lord" that Paul and Peter said will occur "as a thief in the night." I see those events happening very quickly like Rev.11 shows between the 6th & 7th trumpets, probably within an hour. The 'change' 'at the twinkling of an eye' which Paul spoke of will be one of the results of God's consuming fire event Peter spoke of in 2 Pet.3:10. The example in Daniel 3 of God's servants thrown into the hot fiery furnace with Jesus appearing inside with them, and their coming out of that fire without their clothes even smelling of smoke, also represents the change of Christ's Church on earth, on that last day of this world. More about that change of those on earth on the last day is given in Isaiah 25, which hints all on earth on that day will be changed, not just those still alive like Christ's Church.

 

[Keraz]

Davy; do you play cards? Because you sure know how to shuffle! But do you know when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em?
No, I totally reject your ideas of Rev 7 being out of order of events. They follow soon after the Sixth Seal, proved by the 7th Seal in Rev 8:1
But Revelation 7:15-17 does refer to the Eternal state, after the Millennium. wipe away every tear; Revelation 21:4

The 'changed in a twinkling of an eye', 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, will happen at the Great White Throne Judgement, all those still alive then, whose names are in the Book of Life.

 

[Davy]

Davy; do you play cards? Because you sure know how to shuffle! But do you know when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em?
No, I totally reject your ideas of Rev 7 being out of order of events. They follow soon after the Sixth Seal, proved by the 7th Seal in Rev 8:1
But Revelation 7:15-17 does refer to the Eternal state, after the Millennium. wipe away every tear; Revelation 21:4

The 'changed in a twinkling of an eye', 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, will happen at the Great White Throne Judgement, all those still alive then, whose names are in the Book of Life.

Well, now you've either failed to understand what I wrote, or you are trying to interject your own words which I didn't say. I never said Rev.7 was "out of order of events". What I said was the four angels being told to hold the four winds back unto the servants of God are sealed, is an event PRIOR to the great tribulation. That 'sealing' with God's seal is in order to go through... the tribulation, and it's purpose is also shown in Rev.9.

But apparently, it appears you may be stuck on the doctrine of men called the Pre-trib Rapture theory, because it's those on that doctrine that believe the Church is raptured prior to the time of great tribulation.

 

[Keraz]

Well, now you've either failed to understand what I wrote, or you are trying to interject your own words which I didn't say. I never said Rev.7 was "out of order of events". What I said was the four angels being told to hold the four winds back unto the servants of God are sealed, is an event PRIOR to the great tribulation. That 'sealing' with God's seal is in order to go through... the tribulation, and it's purpose is also shown in Rev.9.

But apparently, it appears you may be stuck on the doctrine of men called the Pre-trib Rapture theory, because it's those on that doctrine that believe the Church is raptured prior to the time of great tribulation.

Yes; the angels holding back the 'winds' is prior to the GT, several years before in fact.
My point is that Revelation 7:1-14 happens just after the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, the Seventh Seal time gap follows the gathering of God's people and the selection of the 144,000. Their being given God's Seal, is for their protection while they go out and proclaim the coming Kingdom. Isaiah 66:19, Rev 14:6-7 [the angel is an example for them and what they do.]

Me a pre-tribber? Shows you don't take much notice of what others believe!
I totally refute any 'rapture to heaven' of the Church. That pretentious notion is false teaching.
God's faithful Christian people will be on earth during the GT, as Revelation 12:6-17 proves. They will be divided into 2 groups as described and also shown in Daniel 11:32, Zechariah 14:2

 

[Davy]

Yes; the angels holding back the 'winds' is prior to the GT, several years before in fact.
My point is that Revelation 7:1-14 happens just after the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, the Seventh Seal time gap follows the gathering of God's people and the selection of the 144,000. Their being given God's Seal, is for their protection while they go out and proclaim the coming Kingdom. Isaiah 66:19, Rev 14:6-7 [the angel is an example for them and what they do.]

The vision of the 6 Seals is a separate vision from the sealing and four winds in Rev.7. You cannot assume that the 6th Seal happens and then the timing continues into the 7th chapter. When the latter part of the 6th Seal happens, that is the very end of this world, Jesus beginning His millennial reign.

Me a pre-tribber? Shows you don't take much notice of what others believe!
I totally refute any 'rapture to heaven' of the Church. That pretentious notion is false teaching.
God's faithful Christian people will be on earth during the GT, as Revelation 12:6-17 proves. They will be divided into 2 groups as described and also shown in Daniel 11:32, Zechariah 14:2

I don't hold to a pre-trib rapture, and I mostly use the KJV term "caught up". And there will be a "caught up" event to Christ Jesus at His returning like Paul taught in 1 Thess.4. It involves the change at the twinkling of an eye Paul taught in 1 Cor.15. And it's about the faithful Church being taken to Jerusalem with Jesus to begin the 1,000 years reign from there, on earth.

 

[Keraz]

The vision of the 6 Seals is a separate vision from the sealing and four winds in Rev.7

Of course they are separate. But they will happen in the sequence as Written.

You cannot assume that the 6th Seal happens and then the timing continues into the 7th chapter. When the latter part of the 6th Seal happens, that is the very end of this world, Jesus beginning His millennial reign.

You have shuffled Revelation and you have made a wrong assertion.
Why would the world end when Jesus Returns? It will be different, but the renewal of the heavens and the earth does not happen until after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7

I don't hold to a pre-trib rapture, and I mostly use the KJV term "caught up". And there will be a "caught up" event to Christ Jesus at His returning like Paul taught in 1 Thess.4. It involves the change at the twinkling of an eye Paul taught in 1 Cor.15. And it's about the faithful Church being taken to Jerusalem with Jesus to begin the 1,000 years reign from there, on earth.

Yes, this is what will happen, a transportation to where Jesus will be, in the clouds, then; in Jerusalem, as per Matthew 24:30-31.
But NOT the change into immortality as Paul describes in 1 Cor 15:50-56. That can only happen when the Book of Life is opened; at the Great White Throne Judgement, again: after the Millennium.

 

[Davy]

Of course they are separate. But they will happen in the sequence as Written.

The last part of the Rev.6 chapter about the 6th Seal does not flow into the Rev.7 chapter.

Rev 6:14-17
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
KJV

When that Rev.6:17 verse happens, this world is all over.


Rev 7:1-3
7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
KJV

That Rev.7 timing is prior to the great tribulation, prior to Christ's 2nd coming and gathering of His Church. It is even prior to the latter 3.5 years of Daniel's "one week".

Let's see then, Jesus' coming and end of this world, vs. 3.5 years before Jesus' coming to end this world? Hmmmmm..... not difficult at all; TWO SEPARATE TIMES that don't flow into each other at all! As a matter of fact, going from the last verse of Rev.6 into Rev.7:1-3 is going backwards... in the flow of time!

 

[Keraz]

The last part of the Rev.6 chapter about the 6th Seal does not flow into the Rev.7 chapter.

But it does!
Revelation 7 are all those people who have stood firm in their faith during the terrible Lord's Day of wrath, as we are so plainly told to do. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

You ideas of the Sixth Seal happening at the Return is impossible for 2 main reasons; A scroll cannot be opened until all the seals holding it closed, are removed. The 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls must happen AFTER all the Seals have been fulfilled.
Secondly, the 3 main prophesies we have that describe the Return of Jesus, Zephaniah 14:3-5, Matthew 24:30-31, Revelation 19:11-21 do not tell of a worldwide destruction at that time, in fact all the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls will be over by then. Matthew 24:29, Revelation 15:1

This world is never 'over'. It remains forever, Eccl 1:4, +, and God and the new Jerusalem will come down to us after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7

 

[Davy]

But it does!
Revelation 7 are all those people who have stood firm in their faith during the terrible Lord's Day of wrath, as we are so plainly told to do. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

You ideas of the Sixth Seal happening at the Return is impossible for 2 main reasons; A scroll cannot be opened until all the seals holding it closed, are removed. The 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls must happen AFTER all the Seals have been fulfilled.
Secondly, the 3 main prophesies we have that describe the Return of Jesus, Zephaniah 14:3-5, Matthew 24:30-31, Revelation 19:11-21 do not tell of a worldwide destruction at that time, in fact all the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls will be over by then. Matthew 24:29, Revelation 15:1

This world is never 'over'. It remains forever, Eccl 1:4, +, and God and the new Jerusalem will come down to us after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7

The purpose for the sealing of God's servants in Rev.7 is shown in the Rev.9 chapter...

Rev 9:3-4
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
KJV

That is about the time of the locust army, which is 5th and 6th Trumpet timing. The 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period is great tribulation timing. Thus the reason for the sealing of God's servants is so not to be deceived by the Antichrist and his servants for the tribulation period and also just prior to that period on the 5th Trumpet - 1st Woe period. Only those without God's seal will be subject to that stinging by the locusts.

 

[Keraz]

The purpose for the sealing of God's servants in Rev.7 is shown in the Rev.9 chapter...

Rev 9:3-4
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
KJV

That is about the time of the locust army, which is 5th and 6th Trumpet timing. The 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period is great tribulation timing. Thus the reason for the sealing of God's servants is so not to be deceived by the Antichrist and his servants for the tribulation period and also just prior to that period on the 5th Trumpet - 1st Woe period. Only those without God's seal will be subject to that stinging by the locusts.

Well, yes you are right, but it isn't only for that time, their protection will cover the entire period until Jesus Returns.
What is needed to realize, is why God will put His protection on them. It is because they are the ones who will proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. As Isaiah 66:18b- 19 says.