When Is Flesh Man Judged To Perish?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,760
2,523
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
That you are wrong is glaringly apparent.
Genesis 15:6b....I will give you this land as your possession. Verse 18....from the river of Egypt to the Euphrates.

Saying the people who oppose your bible interpretations: fall short, is the height of arrogance and shows how you seem incapable of understanding posts like #76

The Lord’s people will enter the holy Land with joy and thanksgiving:
Every born again Christian, from every tribe, race ,nation and language.


Isaiah 35:10 The Lord’s people, set free, will enter Zion with shouts of triumph…

Gladness and joy will come upon them, while suffering and sorrow will pass away.

Psalms 149:4-5 For the Lord accepts the service of His people and crowns the lowly with victory. Let His loyal servants exult in triumph!

Jeremiah 33:6 & 25 I shall restore the Land, My people will live there. They will shout: Praise the Lord of Hosts, for He is good and His love endured forever.



Psalms 69:36 Those who serve the Lord and love His Name, will inherit the Land. Christians

Psalms 37:9 Those who trust in the Lord, will inherit the Land.

Isaiah 57:13b but, he who makes Me his refuge, will possess the Land.

Psalms 85:9 Certainly, His loyal followers will soon experience His deliverance, then glory will appear in our Land.

Isaiah 61:3-6 My righteous people, planted in the Lord’s holy Land, to display His glory.

Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the humble, for they will inherit the Land.

Isaiah 29:19-22 The lowly and poor will once again rejoice in the Lord, sinners will be cut down.

Jeremiah 12:14-15 The Lord says: I shall uproot those evil people who occupy My holy Land…. Judah may come back only if they learn the ways of My [Christian] people.

Isaiah 32:15-20 The Land has been [will be] made forsaken and desolated….but in a very short time, it will become a garden Land, where My people will dwell in peace.


Zechariah 9:16 The Lord will save His people like a flock, for they are like precious jewels, that sparkle all about His Land.

Jeremiah 23:3-4 I will bring My sheep back to the Land, they will increase and be fruitful. I shall appoint shepherds who will tend them, they will live in peace.

John 10:16 There are other sheep of Mine, not of this fold. I will lead them, they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock, one Shepherd.

Ezekiel 34:11-31….You are My flock, the sheep that I feed and I am your God


Isaiah 66:18b-21 I will gather My people from every race, nation and language. They will come on every type of conveyance, as an offering to the Lord in Zion.

Psalms 107:1-3 & 36-38 Let those redeemed by the Lord, give thanks. All of His righteous people, gathered from around the world. They are blessed with peace and prosperity.

Psalms 147:12-20 The Lord has brought peace and plenty to His Land.

Praise the Lord! He will gather His faithful people into His Land.

Reference: REB. Some verses abridged

So be it. You will learn soon how wrong you are in your iron clad understanding and in not searching deeper into God's promises.

God promised Abraham the whole earth that He would show him, a world where righteousness abounds.

So based on your understanding of the Hebrew word translated in your preferred translation of Gen. 15:7, then Gen. 1:1 should also be translated as: -

First God made the heavens and the "land."​

Just a small change but one where consistency is required in your theological understanding. Remember that the English translation that you are using is not consistent in how it deals with the original texts.

Shalom


PS: - I am not entering into a piece of land and claiming that I am then right with the Lord.

What I am entering into is a relationship with God in righteousness and holiness believing that He will keep His promises to those who love Him and keep His statutes.
 

Naomi25

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2016
3,199
1,801
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
If you read Jere 31:31ff carefully, you will read that the covenant that will once again be made like new, is the same covenant that God made with the nation of Israel in Exod 19, where God entered into a covenant with the nation of Israel to be His possession among the people, A kingdom of Priests and a Holy Nation, before they rebelled against Him and had Arron build for them Idols to worship while Moses was up on the mountain talking with God Face to Face.

If you can unpack Matt 13:52, you will find that Jesus is speaking about the covenant that had existed from the time of the Garden of Eden which He during His first advent was going to modify: -
Dan 9:24b
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.​

which is associated with the Salvation of all of mankind. In other words the salvation process was going to be refreshed and changed, everlasting righteousness was going to be the norm, and the vision and prophecy concerning this promise from God was going to be sealed to become the only way into a relationship with God such that the Holy will be anointed so that they can enter into their future inheritance.

The terms of the Old Covenant was for Israel to become a Kingdom of Priest and a Holy Nation and His Possession among the nations.

The Jere 31:31ff is the renewing of this same covenant, obviously with some small procedural changes because of the around 3,400 year time differences between the old and the renewed form of this covenant in our near future.

I would recommend that you consider doing a study on the Greek Root, G:2537 and how it is used in the New Testament. In the Parable of the New Wine in the Ne {i.e. refurbished} wineskins, remember that brand new wineskins if they have not been used at all for some time also need to be refurbished like the used wineskins because they too will have become hard and brittle such that they too will not be able to hold the new wine if it is put into them for the same reasons. But this is digressing a tad.

Shalom.

Well, I mostly agree with you, about how we see the Covenant of the OT morphing into what we see in the NT through Jesus. But, I think instead of insisting that 'old Israel' as we saw it in the OT must still contiune on in it's covenant promise from the OT, we must also see that once we reach the NT and how the Covenanat has changed in Christ, so too is how that part is seen.
First; we know that Christ has become the great High Priest.

Jesus Compared to Melchizedek
Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well. -Hebrews 7:11–12


This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant.
The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. -Hebrews 7:22–24

Secondly, we know that in the NT, Peter interpreted those "kingdom of Priests" verses about the Church itself:

you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. -1 Peter 2:5

But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. -1 Peter 2:9
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,760
2,523
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Well, I mostly agree with you, about how we see the Covenant of the OT morphing into what we see in the NT through Jesus. But, I think instead of insisting that 'old Israel' as we saw it in the OT must still contiune on in it's covenant promise from the OT, we must also see that once we reach the NT and how the Covenanat has changed in Christ, so too is how that part is seen.
First; we know that Christ has become the great High Priest.

Jesus Compared to Melchizedek
Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well. -Hebrews 7:11–12


This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant.
The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. -Hebrews 7:22–24

Secondly, we know that in the NT, Peter interpreted those "kingdom of Priests" verses about the Church itself:

you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. -1 Peter 2:5

But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. -1 Peter 2:9

Naomi, it is very difficult to covey in a few words within a post all of the matters concerning the coming things of the Kingdom. It would require that a book be written to expand on all of the required subject matter to convey the full extent of my understanding, just as it is with you attempting to convey your understanding on a subject matter.

Just as the Gentile Christians have had to accept Christ's terms for their salvation, in the near future during the Armageddon time of judgement of the Heathen Gentiles trampling the Sanctuary of God, Israel will seek out Christ's terms of peace for their salvation. I do not see that there will be any significant difference between the Gentile's and Israel's term of peace and salvation.

What I do know is that Israel will be gathered together unto the Lord and that He will plant them in good fertile soil where they are presently living scattered across the world and that God will teach them about/on the Mountains, i.e. the religion, of Israel, i.e. Jesus.

Our future inheritance is the renewed righteous world that we will receive when we stand before the judgement seat at the end of the Age of the Ages and deemed, in the books of record, to be able to stand righteous before God at that time.

My sense is that there are minor differences in our respective understandings of the things of God between us. It is just that we are expressing the same salvation message a little differently.

Shalom
 

Naomi25

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2016
3,199
1,801
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Naomi, it is very difficult to covey in a few words within a post all of the matters concerning the coming things of the Kingdom. It would require that a book be written to expand on all of the required subject matter to convey the full extent of my understanding, just as it is with you attempting to convey your understanding on a subject matter.

Just as the Gentile Christians have had to accept Christ's terms for their salvation, in the near future during the Armageddon time of judgement of the Heathen Gentiles trampling the Sanctuary of God, Israel will seek out Christ's terms of peace for their salvation. I do not see that there will be any significant difference between the Gentile's and Israel's term of peace and salvation.

What I do know is that Israel will be gathered together unto the Lord and that He will plant them in good fertile soil where they are presently living scattered across the world and that God will teach them about/on the Mountains, i.e. the religion, of Israel, i.e. Jesus.

Our future inheritance is the renewed righteous world that we will receive when we stand before the judgement seat at the end of the Age of the Ages and deemed, in the books of record, to be able to stand righteous before God at that time.

My sense is that there are minor differences in our respective understandings of the things of God between us. It is just that we are expressing the same salvation message a little differently.

Shalom
I think the main difference, boiled down, is how we see Israel, and the texts regarding it in the OT once we hit NT understanding. I believe the coming of Christ changes it, as it changes other features (old covenant, temple, etc) whereas I'm seeing you say that you hold those things true even into the NT.
 

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
5,055
919
113
82
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
Naomi, it is very difficult to covey in a few words within a post all of the matters concerning the coming things of the Kingdom. It would require that a book be written to expand on all of the required subject matter to convey the full extent of my understanding, just as it is with you attempting to convey your understanding on a subject matter.

Just as the Gentile Christians have had to accept Christ's terms for their salvation, in the near future during the Armageddon time of judgement of the Heathen Gentiles trampling the Sanctuary of God, Israel will seek out Christ's terms of peace for their salvation. I do not see that there will be any significant difference between the Gentile's and Israel's term of peace and salvation.

What I do know is that Israel will be gathered together unto the Lord and that He will plant them in good fertile soil where they are presently living scattered across the world and that God will teach them about/on the Mountains, i.e. the religion, of Israel, i.e. Jesus.

Our future inheritance is the renewed righteous world that we will receive when we stand before the judgement seat at the end of the Age of the Ages and deemed, in the books of record, to be able to stand righteous before God at that time.

My sense is that there are minor differences in our respective understandings of the things of God between us. It is just that we are expressing the same salvation message a little differently.

Shalom
Your error is in believing that the Jews are still the chosen people. Can you not see that Jesus came to extend Salvation to all who will accept it. And the Jews, in the main, rejected it and still reject it today. Jesus took the Kingdom from them and gave it to us. Matthew 21:43
Romans 9:24-26 plainly states that we Christians are the children of God and that we will inherit the holy Land. Isaiah 56:1-8
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,760
2,523
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Your error is in believing that the Jews are still the chosen people. Can you not see that Jesus came to extend Salvation to all who will accept it. And the Jews, in the main, rejected it and still reject it today. Jesus took the Kingdom from them and gave it to us. Matthew 21:43
Romans 9:24-26 plainly states that we Christians are the children of God and that we will inherit the holy Land. Isaiah 56:1-8

It is my view that your error is in not believing that the Jews will once more become chosen by God after the two ages of the visitation of their iniquities, of the first two ages of their sins, has completed its duration during the third and the four ages of their existence [Exod 20:4-6], in fulfilment of the Abrahamic Covenant that God entered into with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, i.e. also called Israel by God.

If the fulfilments of the OT covenants and promises occur in the NT times, does this make them invalid after the first advent of Christ?

That is the question that needs to be answered.

I would also like to add that the REB translation that you like to use still contain the same errors in translating the source texts into English and has embedded within it the same theological errors as are present in previous translations.

Shalom
 

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
5,055
919
113
82
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
It is my view that your error is in not believing that the Jews will once more become chosen by God after the two ages of the visitation of their iniquities, of the first two ages of their sins, has completed its duration during the third and the four ages of their existence [Exod 20:4-6], in fulfilment of the Abrahamic Covenant that God entered into with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, i.e. also called Israel by God.

If the fulfilments of the OT covenants and promises occur in the NT times, does this make them invalid after the first advent of Christ?

That is the question that needs to be answered.

I would also like to add that the REB translation that you like to use still contain the same errors in translating the source texts into English and has embedded within it the same theological errors as are present in previous translations.

Shalom
Please define who is a true Jew. Are they just the citizens of the State of Israel, plus a few million still in diaspora?
Or is a Jew who Paul says in Romans 2:29
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,760
2,523
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Please define who is a true Jew. Are they just the citizens of the State of Israel, plus a few million still in diaspora?
Or is a Jew who Paul says in Romans 2:29

Well that is a pretty good definition, but I would like to see you use it to determine who are or are not a true descendant of Israel, i.e. Jacob.

I on, the other hand, am not trying to define whom God will chose as the true descendants of Abraham/Jacob. God tells us that He alone will determine who is and who is not when He is gathering the descendants of Jacob to Himself, and He does not need me to be mudding the waters on this matter like you are attempting to do.

Shalom
 

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
5,055
919
113
82
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
Well that is a pretty good definition, but I would like to see you use it to determine who are or are not a true descendant of Israel, i.e. Jacob.

I on, the other hand, am not trying to define whom God will chose as the true descendants of Abraham/Jacob. God tells us that He alone will determine who is and who is not when He is gathering the descendants of Jacob to Himself, and He does not need me to be mudding the waters on this matter like you are attempting to do.

Shalom
As you concede, a Jew is one whose heart is spiritually circumcised. That is a person who believes in God and is born again in Jesus.
Therefore ethnicity has absolutely nothing to do with anyone being a true Israelite of God. As Ephesians 2:11-18 makes abundantly clear. It is you that 'muddies' this issue, by not understanding truths like Galatians 3:26-29

This truth, of course, destroys the 'rapture to heaven' theory, of the ethnic Jews still having an inside track, so to speak, with God. Plainly this idea is ridiculous, as they rejected Jesus and still do today. Their fate is well prophesied, Isaiah 22:14, Zechariah 1:14-18, + and only a Messianic remnant will join with their brethren in the Millennium. Romans 9:27
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,760
2,523
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
As you concede, a Jew is one whose heart is spiritually circumcised. That is a person who believes in God and is born again in Jesus.
Therefore ethnicity has absolutely nothing to do with anyone being a true Israelite of God. As Ephesians 2:11-18 makes abundantly clear. It is you that 'muddies' this issue, by not understanding truths like Galatians 3:26-29

This truth, of course, destroys the 'rapture to heaven' theory, of the ethnic Jews still having an inside track, so to speak, with God. Plainly this idea is ridiculous, as they rejected Jesus and still do today. Their fate is well prophesied, Isaiah 22:14, Zechariah 1:14-18, + and only a Messianic remnant will join with their brethren in the Millennium. Romans 9:27

So be it that that is your opinion, however, there are scriptures that God will gather the descendants to himself in our near future and there are in those scriptures no indication of the spiritual condition of the descendants of Jacob other than they be repentant of their fathers and their own sins towards God.

I am accepting that God is quite capable of determining who is a descendant of Jacob's with out me attempting to limit God to those who might be spiritually like me or you if that is the case.

What I do know is that embedded within the Abrahamic covenant is the promise of God to gather Jacob's descendants at a future time for them to become His people and fulfil the other aspects of that covenant.

The ditch between us is to deep to cross. I would recommend that you spend more time researching the validity of the translations that you reference before you again sprout your theories etc.

Now do not let the long low cloud deceive you.

Shalom
 

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
5,055
919
113
82
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
So be it that that is your opinion, however, there are scriptures that God will gather the descendants to himself in our near future and there are in those scriptures no indication of the spiritual condition of the descendants of Jacob other than they be repentant of their fathers and their own sins towards God.
God Promised to Abraham that his descendants would receive the Blessings and occupy the holy Land.
They apostatized and rejected His Son, therefore, He rejected them. Matthew 24:43
But anyway, it was always by faith, that the promises were given.
So who is it that now are Abrahams faithful descendants? None other that every born again Christian. Proved by Galatians 3:26-29, revelation 5:9-10, +

You have been deceived by the dust storms, bushfires, and other assorted disasters that befall the land of Oz.
The Jews are on a par with every other nation, they must accept Jesus, or be condemned. Prophecy plainly says they never will, except for an remnant. Isaiah 6:11-13, Zechariah 13:8-9, Romans 9:27, +

I guess, though, that if you are a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church believer, then you won't agree with these truths, as you must have the Jews going thru the GT, while you sit in heaven. Neither will happen, they are all fairy tales and Satanic lies.
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,760
2,523
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
God Promised to Abraham that his descendants would receive the Blessings and occupy the holy Land.
They apostatized and rejected His Son, therefore, He rejected them. Matthew 24:43
But anyway, it was always by faith, that the promises were given.
So who is it that now are Abrahams faithful descendants? None other that every born again Christian. Proved by Galatians 3:26-29, revelation 5:9-10, +

You have been deceived by the dust storms, bushfires, and other assorted disasters that befall the land of Oz.
The Jews are on a par with every other nation, they must accept Jesus, or be condemned. Prophecy plainly says they never will, except for an remnant. Isaiah 6:11-13, Zechariah 13:8-9, Romans 9:27, +

I guess, though, that if you are a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church believer, then you won't agree with these truths, as you must have the Jews going thru the GT, while you sit in heaven. Neither will happen, they are all fairy tales and Satanic lies.

First off, it seems that you do not understand the sin that caused God to turn his back on the nation of Israel for a period now approaching around 2,000 years. The Old Testament testifies against Israel idolatrous worship during the first two ages of their existence and it also testifies against the Israelites during the next two ages that they have to also repent of their idolatrous worship during these ages. That was what was foretold in Exodus 20:4-6 would happen when the iniquities of their continual sinning against God would be visited upon them during the third and fourth age of their existence. Israel had already rejected Christ before He was born because they had rejected God Himself.

It seems to me that you have a particular theory concerning Israel and have not looked deeper into the original source texts of the present translations that you are relying on to justify your position with your theory.

Now if you have been reading my other posts, then you would know that I poke fun at the misguided rapturists and their theories and 1 know that in the future, the saints will also go through the Great tribulation period. I am also aware that the members of the Coalition of the Willing are experiencing God's distain at them for attempting to heal the land of Babylon after they had invaded Babylon.

With that being said, I am very aware of what is happening to the low lands that I live in.

Shalom
 

n2thelight

Well-Known Member
Dec 24, 2006
4,048
785
113
60
Atlanta,Ga
The lake of fire is torment? Yes?

The lake of fire is the 2nd death,which is the death of the soul.You can call it torment but it's not forever.

As for the OP,it is very much correct.Only satan by name has been judged to death,that's why he is also known as the son of perdition ,meaning he that perish .

his angels will die to however they are not named,they are the 7000 that die instantly at the return of Christ
 

n2thelight

Well-Known Member
Dec 24, 2006
4,048
785
113
60
Atlanta,Ga
Thanks for you reasonable comments, Naomi. You do try to support your beliefs scripturally, unlike others here.

However; I contend that eternal punishment is separation from God and there is no requirement for eternal torture of the wicked.
I see Revelation 20:10 and the weeping and gnashing of teeth, as admonitions for us to avoid the fate of the wicked.

Re soul sleep, this is proved by Job 14:10-14, Eccl 9:5-6, and Ezekiel 33:20-32 has a story about where the dead reside. They all have no consciousness.
The story Jesus told about Lazarus and the rich man was a homily, designed to hammer home the fact that Salvation is NOW, when you die its too late.
The thief on the cross, did not go to heaven when he died, because Jesus didn't go there Himself until many days later. Acts 1:11 Jesus plainly stated that no one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there. John 3:13
That man awaits Judgement at the Great White Throne, like everyone else who has ever lived. Revelation 20:12-13
Including Job, Abraham, David, and Lazarus. [Martha's brother] But his and their names are Written in the Book of Life, so they will all receive immortality.

So who did Christ preach to after dying of the cross?

I Peter 3:19 "By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison,"

At death ,the soul returns to the Father,your flesh will never be needed again

Ecclesiastes 12:6 "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern."

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."

Dd not Paul teach we have two bodies

I Corinthians 15:35 "But some man will say, "How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"

I Corinthians 15:36 "Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:"

It is important to understand the word "quickened", Remember in verse 22 Paul stated; "in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive." This Greek word for "quickened" is the same Greek word for the "coming alive". It means that all, sinners and saints are made alive through Christ. It doesn't mean that the soul is raised to eternal life, for the soul is not the subject here, but the question is what happens to the physical body?

It means to "revitalize" [# 2227 in Strong's] the soul, and become conscience and ready for judgment. This doesn't mean that all souls are saved, but that all souls are given life to continue as they were. If that soul was lost, it will still be lost, but the final death will not take place until after this age of the flesh is over, after the Millennium age, and the Great white throne judgment is finish. Then will be the time of the "second death" or the death of the lost souls. It means that the soul has put off the flesh body, and put on their spiritual body, but their soul is still condemned to death if it is not in right standing with God.

I Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

There is a natural body, which is your flesh body, and there is also a spiritual or soul body. The two are different and when the natural body, or flesh body dies the spiritual body is "raised", or in the Greek text "egiro, awakened, become active from its death". You have two bodies, one natural body contains your spiritual body, and that spiritual body is awakened to a new life, when the flesh or natural body dies and releases your soul. Your spirit and your soul are together, for the spirit is your "self", "the intellect of your soul" which houses your spirit within you.

Your spirit never leaves your soul, even at the death of your flesh body. Satan does not have any power over your spiritual body, but only your flesh body. Man and Satan can tare this flesh body to peaces and cause you to do all sorts of things, but no-one can damage your soul, not man, not Satan nor the angels. God is the only one that can destroy the soul and that comes at the end of the Millennium age, following judgment. However through deception Satan can cause you to sin against God, and thus be in trouble before the Almighty God. But that is why we have repentance in the name of Jesus to become right-standing before the Father again.

It just can't be made any clearer than Paul has made it here. You have two bodies, the flesh and the spiritual bodies. When the flesh body dies, then the spiritual body is awakened and come alive within itself. It starts to live a life without the baggage of the flesh body confining it to the limits of the flesh.

 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,466
2,500
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What rubbish! And your accusations against me and Davy are unchristian and are the typical response of someone who has had their beliefs challenged and has no Biblical rebuttal to it.
I am aware that the idea of going to live in the holy Land seems new to most Christians, but it is what will happen and it is far more believable than the fable of going to heaven.

I certainly never disagreed to that gathering to the holy land when Jesus returns, so I don't know why you would include me in that conversation.



At the great gathering into the promised Land, as described to us by all the prophets, the Lord’s righteous people: every faithful born again Christian, will march proudly to music as they enter their heritage. Ephesians 1:10-14, Romans 9:24-26, Revelation 5:9-10
Their Redeemer and Deliverer is waiting to show them His favour, He will guide and protect them, in the same manner as He did with their ancestors during the Exodus from Egypt. 1 Corinthians 10:1-5
The Land will blossom and flourish, Isaiah 35:1-10 and they will live there in peace and security, excepting for a 3½ year period of control by the Anti Christ. Then will come the return of Jesus for His Millennial reign.

That, particularly what I put in bold, is not... the timing God's Old Testament prophets taught. You are trying to insert something that does not belong.

The Ezekiel 20:27-44 Scripture is God speaking to the "house of Israel" which at that time in the days of Ezekiel was only about the ten tribed northern kingdom of Israel that had been taken captive by the Assyrians. After God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms per 1 Kings 11 thru 13, that term "house of Israel" only applied to the northern kingdom of ten tribes, and not to the Jews of the southern kingdom in the south. And in that prophecy God is speaking of a remnant of the ten tribes of Israel being gathered back to the promised lands, not all Israel. He is not speaking to Jews, which He covers their gathering elsewhere.

To this day, the majority of Israelites are the ten lost tribes of the "house of Israel". Per God's prophecy in the Book of Hosea, God said He would cause the ten tribes to lose their Israelite heritage, and go fully into the Baal idol worship they rebelled against Him with. He would hedge up their paths so as to not find their way back, and they would lose the keeping of His holy days and feasts. They lost their identity as part of Israel. But the JEWS did not lose their heritage as part of Israel, which God also foretold (Hosea 1:7).



In Romans 9, Apostle Paul quoted directly out of the Book of Hosea about the prophecy when God would call the house of Israel His people again. However, Paul was preaching that to both Israelite and Gentile Roman believers on Christ Jesus, i.e., Christ's Church.

Hos 1:10
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, 'Ye are not My people', there it shall be said unto them, 'Ye are the sons of the living God.'

KJV

Rom 9:25-26
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them My people, which were not My people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, 'Ye are not My people'; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
KJV


By Paul quoting that to Roman Gentile Christians also, he hinted at just where the majority of the ten tribes of Israel were scattered, and who they were. Jewish converts to Christ still know that they are historical Jews. But most of ten tribe converts to Christ have no idea of their heritage from old Israel. So Paul had to understand God was speaking of Christ's Church with that phrase in red which originally pointed only to the house of Israel, but now, under Christ, was to include the believing Gentiles.

Thus the gathering to Christ Jesus when He comes is about the gathering of His Church, of both faithful believing Israelites and Gentiles, as one body. That... is who God is talking about there in Ezekiel 20.

And like He said in Ezek.20:38...

Ezek 20:38
38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against Me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
KJV


That shows only the faithful remnant will be gathered back to the holy land. It certainly does not... mean the unbelieving Jews going back today which aren't even of the "house of Israel" (ten tribes) that God caused to be lost centuries ago.

Note the phrases about the rebellious among them, "...I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, ...". Yet He also said, "... they shall not enter into the land of Israel:." That is suggesting that God is going to gather all Israelites, but only the faithful ones will be gathered back to the lands of Israel. This shows the rebels of Israel will be gathered elsewhere, outside the lands of Israel. And that is who those like Keraz should be looking into.
 
Last edited:

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
5,055
919
113
82
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
That shows only the faithful remnant will be gathered back to the holy land. It certainly does not... mean the unbelieving Jews going back today which aren't even of the "house of Israel" (ten tribes) that God caused to be lost centuries ago.
There will be a vast multitude who will go to live in all of the holy Land, soon after the Sixth Seal disaster has cleared and cleansed that entire area. Deuteronomy 32:34-43
John sees them there in Revelation 7:9-14. Proved by Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7
They are people; all the faithful Christians from every race, nation and language, joined by the faithful remnant of the Jews.
 

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
5,055
919
113
82
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
It seems to me that you have a particular theory concerning Israel and have not looked deeper into the original source texts of the present translations that you are relying on to justify your position with your theory.

Now if you have been reading my other posts, then you would know that I poke fun at the misguided rapturists and their theories and 1 know that in the future, the saints will also go through the Great tribulation period.
Thanks for clarifying your stance on the 'rapture'. We are in agreement on that.

But who is the true Israel of God today, is an issue you seem to be confused about.
NT teaching is plain, the ethnic people are no longer His Chosen people, it is only those who have the faith that Abraham displayed, who are now his descendants in the sight of God.

We do live in lucky countries, I have seen many parts of the world where life is difficult and hard.
But from the many Bible prophesies, our destiny is to live in all of the holy Land, where the Lord will bless His people. I look forward to this with great anticipation, to all that must take place before Jesus Returns, then the glories of the Millennium with King Jesus.
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,760
2,523
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
But who is the true Israel of God today, is an issue you seem to be confused about.
NT teaching is plain, the ethnic people are no longer His Chosen people, it is only those who have the faith that Abraham displayed, who are now his descendants in the sight of God.

I am not confused at all. The Lord will decide who he will draw to himself and as such I am not prepared to make the rules for Him as to who are the descendants of Abraham/Jacob that He will gather to himself in all the places where they are living at that time. But it seems to me that you are by dogmatically presenting your theories about those whom God will gather in our near future to become a Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and His Possession among the Nations.

Shalom
 

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
5,055
919
113
82
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
I am not confused at all. The Lord will decide who he will draw to himself and as such I am not prepared to make the rules for Him as to who are the descendants of Abraham/Jacob that He will gather to himself in all the places where they are living at that time. But it seems to me that you are by dogmatically presenting your theories about those whom God will gather in our near future to become a Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and His Possession among the Nations.

Shalom
So then, who are the chosen people since Jesus came? John 15:14-16, 1 Peter 2:9, Ephesians :11-14

The Lord will motivate His faithful people, Christians from every race, nation and language to gather in His holy Land, all as prophesied.
If you insist that those who like to call themselves Jews are still the special chosen people, then you are in error, as many prophesies tell us of their virtual demise and only a remnant will survive.
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,760
2,523
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
So then, who are the chosen people since Jesus came? John 15:14-16, 1 Peter 2:9, Ephesians :11-14

The Lord will motivate His faithful people, Christians from every race, nation and language to gather in His holy Land, all as prophesied.
If you insist that those who like to call themselves Jews are still the special chosen people, then you are in error, as many prophesies tell us of their virtual demise and only a remnant will survive.

So be it. You are welcome to hold whatever view floats your shaky boat/island.