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Featured When Is Flesh Man Judged To Perish?

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Davy, Jan 10, 2019.

  1. Keraz

    Keraz Well-Known Member

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    The 'assumption' of the vast multitude of people from every tribe, race, nation and language being in the holy Land, Revelation 7:9, is proved by the many prophesies that tell how every faithful Christian will go to live there, soon after the Day of cloud and darkness, the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath that will clear the entire Middle East region, enabling this migration. Ezekiel 34:11-6, Isaiah 35:1-10, Isaiah 66:15-21,+
    The Lord will be revealed to them; 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, Revelation 14:1
    We do agree that the first five Seals are open and in effect since Jesus departed. The Sixth is next and will be the world changer.
    Right, there IS a 'harparzo' a catching up of people when Jesus Returns. 1 Thessalonians 4:17
    But it is clearly AFTER Jesus has left heaven on His way to earth for His Millennium reign. It will be a transportation between two locations on earth, similar to what happened to Philip. Acts 8:39 Proved by Matthew 24:30-31, the same event.
     
  2. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    Well, hang on. If our verse outright says that these people are standing before the throne and the Lamb, and we already know from earlier in Revelation that the thone and the Lamb are in heaven, where are you getting "holy land" from?

    After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, -Revelation 7:9

    And you might think that Rev 14:1 suggests that Mt Zion means earthly Jerusalem, but Hebrews tells us otherwise:

    But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, -Hebrews 12:22


    John 14 as well, although the Dispensationalists hate it when I point it out.

    And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. -John 14:3

    They like to think this proves a Rapture, but it just proves the New Jerusalem is getting ready to "come on down", and that when Christ leaves heaven to come get us, we'll be "where he is"...which apparently, is not in heaven anymore, because he's just "come again".
    I'm not sure that the 'location' of this Rapture will be to the earthly Jerusalem. The language used implies a meeting of Christ in the air, where we will recieve our new bodies. I then assume, from various verses, that the New Jerusalem will descend from Heaven and we will take up residence (if it turns out to be a literal city, not just a representation of 'the bride').
     
  3. Keraz

    Keraz Well-Known Member

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    I get the idea that we Christians will go to live in all of the holy Land from the complete Bible story. Specifically from the scriptures I provided.
    I know that this idea is foreign to you and to most, but it is what will happen, God will at last, have a people in His Land who will be His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14-16
    THAT is our destiny and our great privilege.

    Yes. John saw God's Throne when he was in the spirit and was given the visions. Note, he was in the Spirit, heaven and all its inhabitants are Spiritual beings, they belong to another dimension to us. Remember God is omnipresent, He can be anywhere and everywhere.
    So I stand by how those people in Revelation 7:9 are on earth, waving palm branches and praising God for the protection He has given them in the just happened Sixth Seal terrible disaster.

    John 14:1-3 is obviously referring to the New Jerusalem, that will come to the earth after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7
     
  4. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    Um. I don't think we'll fit. Israel be tiny. All Christian's throughout the Earth now? How many would that be? All Christians that have ever been alive? No chance we'd fit. But...again...we have to remember that Israel, like the Garden of Eden, was just a type of the coming reality. When Christ comes again, the whole Earth will be "the holy land".

    So...are you talking about the Millennium, then? Even then...there's still quite a number and I'm not sure we'd fit. Also, it is our job in this age to be a light to the Nations, the city on a hill. In the Millennium, or the Next Age, Christ will reign, his light will pervade all. Our destiny and priviledge will be to praise and serve him. How can we be a "light" in a place where there is no darkness?

    Well, you can have your opinion, obviously, but I cannot agree. The text specifically states "standing before", not "gazing upon". Also, if John is in heaven in the spirit, viewing what is there, he is hardly going to see the people who are on earth...not unless he is view the vision from the throne itself. At the very least, it is a clunky and not natural reading of the text and must be bent considerably to make mean what you suggest it does.

    I agree. Of course, I think the Millennium is happening now, which means the NJ will descend not long after Christ's second coming...but...I'm not hugely dogmatic about that.
     
  5. Keraz

    Keraz Well-Known Member

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    The Land that God gave to Abraham, from the Nile to the Euphrates: Genesis 15:18, so long ago - is the holy Land. Many prophesies say it will be made fruitful when it is all occupied by His people.
    Not all the Christians that have ever lived, there is no resurrection until after the Millennium. All those who stood firm in the fiery test, 1 Peter 4:12, the test of the Sixth Seal and John sees them in their inheritance in Revelation 7:1-14
    No, I am showing that there will soon be a dramatic world changer, similar to what happened in Noah's day, but by fire this time. 2 Peter 3:7
    Then the faithful born again Christians will be motivated to migrate to the holy Land, where they will all live as God always intended His people to be, but has never yet had. Read Psalms 107 for the story of the Christians migration. Also Isaiah 66:18b-21 and note the ref to the 144,000 selected out of them and what they will do.
    The Seventh Seal proves the time gap from this happening and Jesus' Return. Of 'about' 20 years.
    The Lord and His Throne will be present for those people, they will see it, just as Ezekiel and Stephen saw it. John was given visions of what is to come; on earth.
    Millennium now? Jesus will be the King over all the earth for the Millennium. That is far from a reality as yet.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2019
  6. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    Still...currently Israel has a population of about 8 million, and worldwide, there are over 2 billion Christians. Even widening those boarders it's going to get a bit snuggly.
    I think you must realise that Israel was just a picture for what was intended...the whole world belongs to Christ, and thus we are heirs to it in him. That's our inheritance.

    2 Peter 3 is not just talking about a judgement upon the earth, it's talking about the final end of the earth:

    But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, -2 Peter 3:10–11

    This is the end of this Age, where all things will be made new after first being "dissolved". It won't be a case of some people escaping a partial judgement and then moving to better real estate. Well...unless you're talking about those who are in Christ, in which case, yes, we will escape the judgement and our move will be to the New heavens and earth, which will be, no doubt, much better real estate!

    Still not really dealing with the issue, though. The passage outright says that these people were standing before the throne. The throne is in heaven. Ipso facto, there are people in heaven.


    Well, if we look at the actual text, it says Christ reigned for a thousand years. Not that he reigned on earth. Over the earth, sure. And we know, certainly, from other texts, that he, at this point in time, sits beside the Father doing just that, far above all powers and authorities.
    I think, it just comes back to expectations. The Pharisees and many Jews missed it because they had their minds staunchly set on what the Messiah's "earthly" Kingdom had to look like. But Jesus outright said that his Kingdom is "not of this world". How much plainer can we get. But people are still looking for him to come back and have a Kingdom "of this world". Well, the bible really doesn't say that, but it tells us he's sitting on a throne now, having triumphed over death. He's inaugerated the Kingdom, and when he comes back, he'll consumate it.
     
  7. Keraz

    Keraz Well-Known Member

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    You miss the many prophesies that tell us : of Israel [the Jews] only a remnant will be saved. Romans 9:27. Isaiah 6:11-13, Zephaniah 1:14-18, +
    That remnant. the Messianic Jews , will join with their brethren; all born again faithful Christians, and we will all live in all of the holy Land. Jeremiah 50:4-5, Psalms 37:9, Psalms 69:35-36, Romans 9:24-26....in the very place...we will be called children of the Living God.
    That we Christians will occupy the holy Land, is proved by Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7, where it is seen that God's holy people are there when the Anti-Christ conquers them. Revelation 12:6-17 tells us how half of the Christians will be taken to a place of safety, on earth, the rest must remain, as per verse 17. Those two groups are also described in Daniel 11:32 and Zechariah 14:2

    These facts prove there is no rapture removal for anyone other that the 2 witnesses and they get killed first. We must endure until the end. Revelation 13:10

    Jesus has been given the authority, but He has yet to Return and take up
    His rightful Kingdom.
    2 Peter 3:7 IS about the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath by fire from the sun, prophesied over 70 times in the Bible. It is a Judgement, that verse says so. Please: actually read the scriptures.
    Peter does go on to describe the final New earth, that will come after the Millennium.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2019
  8. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    This River flowing from out under the sanctuary has never been fulfilled, because it's about God's River of the waters of life, and the tree of life of Revelation. That has not manifested on this earth since God's Garden of Eden in Genesis 2. Anything saying different is a falsehood.

    Ezek 47:5-12
    5 Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.

    6 And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.

    7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.

    8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.

    9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.

    10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from En-gedi even unto En-eglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.

    11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.

    12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

    KJV
     
  9. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Well-Known Member

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    Davy, you have expressed your opinion once more on the Ezek 47:1-12 prophecy but you have provided no scriptural evidence to back up your opinion. Yes you quoted a portion of the Prophecy, but it provides no evidence to support your POV.

    If we are Saints, then in our righteous relationship with God, we are eating from the tree of life, figuratively, as God's healing comes into our lives and we will live forever.

    However, in my previous posts above, I did not mention The Tree of Life, it was you who made mention of that tree.

    Now, after considering the life of Solomon, it is my understanding from my piecing the story line together that Solomon dedicated His Temple to God in about the 22-23 year of his reign, since the Bible is silent as to the actual year during Solomon's reign as to when the Temple was dedicated.

    Putting together the timeline from what is able to be put together from the texts, from when Adam was created until the waters cascade over the escarpment into the desert below, it is possible to determine when the end of this present age will be and when the end of the Millennium Age will be, with a reasonable level of confidence of plus or minus a few years because a number of sign posts along God's timeline have not been precisely determined within the present calendar used by man as to when they occurred in our past history.

    Now if we fix any "End Time" prophecy at the wrong year place on the timeline for mankind, then our understanding of the End times, and for that matter, any fulfilment of any prophecy, then skewers our understanding of what is to happen during the end times.

    Sadly, the translations of the original source texts to create our English language bibles, are full of errors, both translationally and theologically wise and as such the Translated bibles that we use need to be used with caution. However, the traditions embedded within our present translated bibles are very hard to dislodge and move out of the way.

    It seems to me that you have this type of blockage within your understanding of the translations that we use to arrive at our understandings of the End Times. Sadly, I too may have a similar problem, but when the right substantiated evidence is presented, I am willing to adjust my understanding to come into line with the new evidence that I have received.

    Davy, are you willing to change your stances.

    Shalom
     
  10. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think I do miss the verses that tell us only a remnant will remain...I'm full aware of that. What I'm questioning, really, is how valid it is to hold, literally, to the belief that we must, at some future point, all travel to and live in, the land of, or surrounding Israel.
    You must understand that many of the OT verses, when describing such 'physical' things, are types and shadows of something that is seen in the NT to come to pass in the work and person of Christ.
    Consider: In the OT, Jerusalem was called the "holy city"...even through the time of Christ's ministry as well. However, after Christ's work on the cross and resurrection, Jerusalem is no longer referred to in scripture as "the holy city". In fact, in Revelation the term 'holy city' is used in reference to the New Jerusalem, which we know is equated with the redeemed, the bride of Christ. Basically, the holy city is the spiritual Jerusalem of the saints.
    We also know that the land of Israel, and city of Jerusalem, weren't "special" because of some quality or feature. What made them special, was that God had picked it, and the people, to be his. To be a light to the Nations, and to bring blessings to the Nations through them. But when Christ came, those blessings to the world now come through him. People look to him, flock to him, to be close to God. There is no need for 'holy land' or Temple. We have the Holy Spirit and Christ as mediator.
    This is why it is so important to read the OT through the lense of Christ's work. The OT is important, but when Jesus came, he made sense of many things that were just types and shadows.

    But when Jesus tells us that his kingdom is "not of this world", why do we persist in insisting it must be? Why do we still insist that he must sit on a literal throne here on literal earth before he can be considered to be "reigning"? Does he not rule in many hearts now? Does he not uphold the very universe with his thoughts? Has he not completely conquered death and Hades? How is that not 'ruling and reigning'?

    Well..I do read the scriptures. 2 Peter 3:10 says that:

    But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

    We see the same word usage here as other passages that talk of Christ's second coming. Let me show you:

    The Judgment at Christ's Coming
    This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering—since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power, so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, -2 Thessalonians 1:5–2:3

    Clearly we see "the day of the Lord" being spoken about in the same time frame as 'judgement in fire' and his second coming, and our 'being gathered to him'. Also, there are multiple passages that talk of Christ's return as "like a thief":

    For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. -1 Thessalonians 5:2

    Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. -Matthew 24:42–44

    So...I think we must undoubtably say that this passage in Peter talks about 3 things: Christ's return, the judgement of the wicked and the "dissolving" of the current cosmos. I'm not really sure how you can take away just 'judgement' from it, when it says things like "heavens will pass away with a roar" and "the heavenly bodies will burn up and be dissolved". This is not partial judgement language.
     
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  11. Keraz

    Keraz Well-Known Member

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    The Christians going to live in all of the holy land is well prophesied in the Bible. It is our destiny and a logical out come of God's Plan for His people.
    I will give the Land to new owners:

    Zephaniah 3:1-8 Woe to the place of oppression, filthy and defiled, they heed no warning voice and ignore God’s rebukes. They won’t take correction or place their trust in their Creator. Their leaders have no concern for the people and prophet and priest alike profane the Holy Scriptures.

    The Lord has judged and punished them before, their land laid waste and the towns deserted and He thought: surely now they will fear Me and will accept instruction, but they continue on in their evil deeds and they show no shame for it.

    Judah has been punished by Babylon and by Rome. Next to happen; by the Lord Himself.

    Therefore: look out for Me, for the Day when I will stand up to witness against you, on the Day that I execute justice upon the nations, for I will pour out My fierce anger and the whole earth will be enveloped by the fire of My wrath.

    This will be the great and terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath against the nations. Prophesied in the Bible over 100 times. Romans 1:18, Hebrews 10:27, Revelation 6:12-17, +


    Zephaniah 3:11-13 On that Day, Jerusalem, I shall wipe away your shame for all the transgressions committed in you, for I shall remove all your proud and arrogant citizens, only the humble and peaceful people will remain and those who never practise evil or speak lies, they will settle in the Land and nothing will disturb them.

    This is the great Second Exodus of all of God’s people into all of the holy Land. Every faithful Christian: a vast multitude from every tribe, race, nation and language. Isaiah 66:18-21, Ezekiel 34:11-31, Romans 9:24=26, Revelation 7:9


    Zephaniah 3:9-10 They will all know a pure language, so everyone will know the true Name of the Lord and will praise Him with one accord. My worshippers, all the righteous people will come from afar to worship the Lord and bring offerings to Him.
    People from every race, nation and language, all the born again Christian people, will travel there to live, in the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, while the rest of the world is ruled by a One World Government. Daniel 7:23, Revelation 17:12


    Zephaniah 3:14-17 Daughter of Jerusalem; sing for joy! For the Lord has taken away your punishments and has cast out your enemies. Now the Lord is with you and you need never again fear disaster.

    On the Day of the Lord’s wrath; This is the message for My people: Fear not, stand firm in your faith, your God will keep you safe and will rejoice over you.

    Ref: REB, CJB, KJV. Some verses condensed and paraphrased.


    This chapter of Zephaniah encapsulates the soon to happen end times story.

    It tells how Jerusalem is denigrated by its ungodly inhabitants and will rejoice when they are gone. How those enemies of the Lord, the evil neighbors, Jeremiah 12:14, and all who reject the Salvation of Jesus, will be uprooted, then the holy Land resettled by the Lord’s faithful believers. Ezekiel 34:11-31 tells it plainly.

    Jeremiah 7:30-34 & 8:1-13 The people of Judah have done wrong, they worship idols and have no regard for their Creator....Therefore, the time is coming when I shall fill the valley of Topeth with their corpses.......All the survivor’s of this wicked race, from wherever I have banished them, would rather die than live. Isaiah 22:14

    ...Judah is incurable in their waywardness......I listen, but I hear not one word of remorse ....My people do not know the Judgements of the Lord. How can you say: We are wise and we have the Law of God, when your scribes and priests have falsified it? The wise are shamed and where is wisdom in them?

    Therefore I will give their wives to others and give their land to new owners, for all of their prophets and priests are frauds....on My Day of reckoning, they will fall with a great crash. I shall surely consume them says the Lord and there will be no grapes on the vine, [Israel] and no figs on the fig tree. [Judah]


    We Christians are told by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5:4-5, that we should know God’s plans for what will happen in the near future. Zephaniah 3 gives it to us, confirmed by the sequence of Revelation chapters 6-7.


    What is presented to you in these scriptures, is God’s Promises to His faithful people, His blessings of peace and prosperity, of joy and happiness, of security and long life, as all who love Him and keep the Commandments; will live in His Land.

    It is the prophetic parallel of ancient Israel, where Jesus led the people through the desert and how most of them refused to accept the Promise. 1 Corinthians 10:6-13

    Ezekiel 20:34-38 tells how, once again, some of His people will revolt and rebel and they will not enter the Land of Israel.


    In today’s situation, we have many who have accepted the Gospel, but who have chosen their own beliefs about what God intends to do for His people and during this forthcoming test, 1 Peter 4:12, they may fail to stand firm in their trust that the Lord will protect them on His terrible Day of wrath.
    This won’t lose their salvation, but it will be a serious disadvantage, 1 Corinthians 3:13-15


    As the great chapter of Isaiah 35:1-10, one of the many prophesies that describe the Lord’s faithful Christian people entering the holy Land, says: ...no one unclean will go there....The Lord’s people, set free: will enter Zion with shouts of triumph.

    Can't you see? 2 Peter 3:7-10 gives a sequence of events; first the Lord's Day of wrath, the devastating fires, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis of the Sixth Seal, then from verse 11, he goes on to tell how the world will be renewed, as we see in Revelation 22 - AFTER the Millennium.


     
  12. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    Well, yes I have given the Scripture as Biblical proof of what I've said. By you inferring it's just my opinion is only an excuse you're trying to use to deny the written Scripture of Ezekiel 47 that I gave about that River flowing out of that sanctuary and the many trees on either side of it which its leaves are for the healing of the nations...

    Rev 22:1-2
    22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
    2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

    KJV


    Ezek 47:12
    12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.
    KJV



    Since you try to say the Ezekiel 47 Scripture was fulfilled already, which those two Scriptures show it obviously has not yet come to pass, and you don't appear to have any problem telling such an obvious lie, welcome to my Ignore List.
     
  13. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Well-Known Member

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    Naomi, I agree with you and sense that Keraz is forcing the scriptures to support a theory that does not stack up. Remember he lives across the ditch and the in the land of the Low White Clouds, they are not able to see too well.

    Zeph 3:1-8 is speaking of a prolong period of this that is coming to a conclusion in our near future when, as Paul tells us in Roma 11:25-26, all of Israel will be saved.

    A time when God will gather all of Israel to Himself and plant then in the soil of nourishment and teaching where they are living about the Mountains, I.e. God's statues with respect to worshipping Him which is the bases of our religion of worshipping God, in preparation for them to become once more His Kingdom of Priests and a Holy Nation and His possession among all of the nations.

    Who are the "new owners"?

    It is the Heathen Gentiles around them. Why? Because the Israelite have turned their backs on God and have gone after other Gods.

    The present traditional understanding of the end times is no justification for what is being forced upon the world by the zealous Christians who want what they want no matter what. At the time of Judgement, Jesus will say of these zealous Christians, "I never knew you."

    Shalom
     
  14. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Well-Known Member

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    Please Davy, do not put words into my mouth that I have not posted.

    What I have suggested in my posts above, is that the Ezek 47:1-12 prophecy began on the day that Solomon dedicated the Temple he built to God in the 22-23 years of his reign. This prophecy has embedded within it a 4,000 year period and at present we are approaching the 3,000 the year of that time period, so as such all of this prophecy has not been fulfilled as you claim that I have stated. I did go on to state that at then end of the 4,000 year period, the river of life will cascade over the escarpment down into the desert below and bring healing. When does this happen? After the Final time of Judgement of all the people of the earth.

    What I did state was that along the river bank on his return to the Temple, Ezekiel saw trees that brought healing to the people entering the river of life along the way of the river of life. This does not negate the fact that there will be found in the Age of Eternity the Tree of Life.

    Davy, it feels like to me that you have a particular biased understanding that you want to push and that we should learn from you.

    What I have learned from your posts is that you cannot read and understand what I have posted and as such, if you cannot read and understand what I have posted, then how can I know that what you have read and understood from the Bible is the understanding that God wants us all to have.

    Shalom
     
  15. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    You seem to missing my point on HOW the NT reinterprets OT prophecies. For example, instead of just being promised Canaan, the 'promised land' is now the whole earth:

    For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. -Romans 4:13

    Peter tells the crowd at Pentecost that Christs resurrection and ascention fulfilled the Davidic Covenant:

    this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it. For David says concerning him,
    “‘I saw the Lord always before me,
    for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken;
    therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced;
    my flesh also will dwell in hope.
    For you will not abandon my soul to Hades,
    or let your Holy One see corruption.
    You have made known to me the paths of life;
    you will make me full of gladness with your presence.’
    “Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says,
    “‘The Lord said to my Lord,
    “Sit at my right hand,
    until I make your enemies your footstool.”’
    Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.” -Acts 2:23–36


    My point being, that you can't just take all those OT prophecies about people flocking to "the land" without taking into consideration HOW the NT looks at how Christ changed those prophecies, because he did. That's all I'm saying.
     
  16. Keraz

    Keraz Well-Known Member

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    What rubbish! And your accusations against me and Davy are unchristian and are the typical response of someone who has had their beliefs challenged and has no Biblical rebuttal to it.
    I am aware that the idea of going to live in the holy Land seems new to most Christians, but it is what will happen and it is far more believable than the fable of going to heaven.

    At the great gathering into the promised Land, as described to us by all the prophets, the Lord’s righteous people: every faithful born again Christian, will march proudly to music as they enter their heritage. Ephesians 1:10-14, Romans 9:24-26, Revelation 5:9-10
    Their Redeemer and Deliverer is waiting to show them His favour, He will guide and protect them, in the same manner as He did with their ancestors during the Exodus from Egypt. 1 Corinthians 10:1-5
    The Land will blossom and flourish, Isaiah 35:1-10 and they will live there in peace and security, excepting for a 3½ year period of control by the Anti Christ. Then will come the return of Jesus for His Millennial reign.

    Isaiah 30:18 Yet the Lord is waiting to show you His favour, He yearns to have pity on you. Happy are those who wait on Him!

    Ezekiel 20:34-38 By My strong arm and outpoured wrath, I shall bring you out from among the peoples and gather you from the lands where you have been dispersed. I shall bring you into a desert place and bring you into judgement, as I did with your ancestors out of Egypt. I shall pass you under the rod of judgement and count you as you enter Israel. Those who revolt and rebel against Me will not enter the Land.

    outpoured wrath’ refers to the next prophesied event – the terrible Day of the Lord’s wrath and vengeance, that destroys His enemies and cleanses the Land by fire. The Christian Israelites, people from every tribe, race, nation and language will then march into and take over all that area promised, so long ago to Abraham. Genesis 15:18

    Ezekiel 36:8 You: Land of Israel – grow your trees and yield your fruit, for the homecoming of My people, Israel, is near. The Israel of God.

    Micah 4:6 On that Day, I shall gather those who are lost, I shall assemble the dispersed.

    Micah 2:12 I will assemble you, the whole House of Jacob. [now every faithful Christian] I will gather you together with those remaining in Israel and herd them like sheep in a fold.

    Jeremiah 3:22 Come back, you apostate people and I shall heal you. Here we are, our God, we are coming back to You.

    Jeremiah 31:8-9 See how I bring My people from the ends of the earth, a vast company – they come home, weeping and repentant. I shall comfort them and lead them on smooth paths.

    Isaiah 43:19 I am about to do something new, can you see it? I will make a path for My people.

    Isaiah 58:11 The Lord will guide you, He will satisfy your needs in the desert and give strength.

    Isaiah 62:10 Pass through the gates, clear a road for My people and mark their way.

    Isaiah 42:16 Without fail, I shall lead the blind and guide My people along paths unknown to them.

    Psalms 68:7-9 The Lord, leading His people, marching through the desert- the earth shakes and rain pours down. Isaiah 44:3

    Isaiah 30:29 For you there will be joyful singing, as you march into Israel, the Holy Land of God.

    Isaiah 40:26-31 Lift your eyes to the heavens, consider your Creator, He leads His people out – each summoned by name, none are missing. He gives strength to the exhausted and those who look to Him will not faint, they march as on eagles wings.



    Obadiah 19:21 My people will possess the Negev, Samaria, Northern and southern Jordan and all the coastlands of the Mediterranean.

    Isaiah 49:8-11 The Lord says: In the time of My favour, on the Day of Deliverance, I will come to your aid, you are My people destined to be a light to the nations and to restore the Land. Go free now and in the Land you will find food and water in plenty. It will not be too hot when the One who loves them will guide them along highways. My people, coming from all parts of the world, will shout for joy as they enter their Land. For God has comforted His people in their distress. Reference REB. Some verses abridged.
     
  17. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    I have not really made a study of Zephaniah. But, from what I can tell of the passage in question, doesn't it just really talk about Israel's unfaithfulness (mostly the leaders in this instance) and coming judgement against them and all the nations, whom he will gather, before he pours out his indignation upon them.
    Romans 11:25-26 appears to talk about Israel being saved through the promised "new covenant", which we know was Christ's death on the cross.
    So...I'm not entirely convinced by your conclusion, sorry. But, like I said, that's just a glance at Zeph.
     
  18. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Well-Known Member

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    If you read Jere 31:31ff carefully, you will read that the covenant that will once again be made like new, is the same covenant that God made with the nation of Israel in Exod 19, where God entered into a covenant with the nation of Israel to be His possession among the people, A kingdom of Priests and a Holy Nation, before they rebelled against Him and had Arron build for them Idols to worship while Moses was up on the mountain talking with God Face to Face.

    If you can unpack Matt 13:52, you will find that Jesus is speaking about the covenant that had existed from the time of the Garden of Eden which He during His first advent was going to modify: -
    Dan 9:24b
    To make reconciliation for iniquity,
    To bring in everlasting righteousness,
    To seal up vision and prophecy,
    And to anoint the Most Holy.​

    which is associated with the Salvation of all of mankind. In other words the salvation process was going to be refreshed and changed, everlasting righteousness was going to be the norm, and the vision and prophecy concerning this promise from God was going to be sealed to become the only way into a relationship with God such that the Holy will be anointed so that they can enter into their future inheritance.

    The terms of the Old Covenant was for Israel to become a Kingdom of Priest and a Holy Nation and His Possession among the nations.

    The Jere 31:31ff is the renewing of this same covenant, obviously with some small procedural changes because of the around 3,400 year time differences between the old and the renewed form of this covenant in our near future.

    I would recommend that you consider doing a study on the Greek Root, G:2537 and how it is used in the New Testament. In the Parable of the New Wine in the Ne {i.e. refurbished} wineskins, remember that brand new wineskins if they have not been used at all for some time also need to be refurbished like the used wineskins because they too will have become hard and brittle such that they too will not be able to hold the new wine if it is put into them for the same reasons. But this is digressing a tad.

    Shalom.
     
  19. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Well-Known Member

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    First of all have you not done what you have accused me of doing.

    Davy, bless his soul, deliberately misconstrued hat I had posted to make it appear as if I had said the opposite of what I had written and I called him out for doing that. He then posted more supposed scriptures to support his cause and then informed me that he was going to put me on ignore. Perhaps a wise response if you do not want to change your point of view. The wise readers will understand his position well.

    You I also have called out because it was obvious that you were reading into the Zeph 3 chapter what you were wanting to read into it.

    An example of this is found in your Geneses_15 comments. God promises to give Abraham the whole earth to inherit in verse 7 and Abraham's response in verse 8 was, "Lord God, how will I know that I will inherit it?"

    God's response was to have Abraham make preparations for a solemn covenant that he intended to enter into as a confirmation covenant that if the solemn covenant happened in the future, then the inheriting of the whole earth in the future would also be true.

    If you cannot understand what happened in Genesis_15, then perhaps your understanding of other passages are also suspect.

    Now I am not the only one who is questioning your posts. You should consider yourself fortunate that there are people who are willing to question your posts and the message that you are presenting.

    Now unless you can provide evidence that can be validated from the word itself, in rebuttal to what I have posted, then I would suggest that the ability of rebutting all that you post would be more than a full time job. It was for that reason that I only picked up on one small part of your post, because if that portion of your post could not be justified, then all of your post could not be justified.

    It is not your theory that I want to read. I want to learn and expand my understanding of the word of God. Sadly, both you and Davy fall short in that area.

    Shalom
     
  20. Keraz

    Keraz Well-Known Member

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    That you are wrong is glaringly apparent.
    Genesis 15:6b....I will give you this land as your possession. Verse 18....from the river of Egypt to the Euphrates.

    Saying the people who oppose your bible interpretations: fall short, is the height of arrogance and shows how you seem incapable of understanding posts like #76

    The Lord’s people will enter the holy Land with joy and thanksgiving:
    Every born again Christian, from every tribe, race ,nation and language.


    Isaiah 35:10 The Lord’s people, set free, will enter Zion with shouts of triumph…

    Gladness and joy will come upon them, while suffering and sorrow will pass away.

    Psalms 149:4-5 For the Lord accepts the service of His people and crowns the lowly with victory. Let His loyal servants exult in triumph!

    Jeremiah 33:6 & 25 I shall restore the Land, My people will live there. They will shout: Praise the Lord of Hosts, for He is good and His love endured forever.



    Psalms 69:36 Those who serve the Lord and love His Name, will inherit the Land. Christians

    Psalms 37:9 Those who trust in the Lord, will inherit the Land.

    Isaiah 57:13b but, he who makes Me his refuge, will possess the Land.

    Psalms 85:9 Certainly, His loyal followers will soon experience His deliverance, then glory will appear in our Land.

    Isaiah 61:3-6 My righteous people, planted in the Lord’s holy Land, to display His glory.

    Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the humble, for they will inherit the Land.

    Isaiah 29:19-22 The lowly and poor will once again rejoice in the Lord, sinners will be cut down.

    Jeremiah 12:14-15 The Lord says: I shall uproot those evil people who occupy My holy Land…. Judah may come back only if they learn the ways of My [Christian] people.

    Isaiah 32:15-20 The Land has been [will be] made forsaken and desolated….but in a very short time, it will become a garden Land, where My people will dwell in peace.


    Zechariah 9:16 The Lord will save His people like a flock, for they are like precious jewels, that sparkle all about His Land.

    Jeremiah 23:3-4 I will bring My sheep back to the Land, they will increase and be fruitful. I shall appoint shepherds who will tend them, they will live in peace.

    John 10:16 There are other sheep of Mine, not of this fold. I will lead them, they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock, one Shepherd.

    Ezekiel 34:11-31….You are My flock, the sheep that I feed and I am your God


    Isaiah 66:18b-21 I will gather My people from every race, nation and language. They will come on every type of conveyance, as an offering to the Lord in Zion.

    Psalms 107:1-3 & 36-38 Let those redeemed by the Lord, give thanks. All of His righteous people, gathered from around the world. They are blessed with peace and prosperity.

    Psalms 147:12-20 The Lord has brought peace and plenty to His Land.

    Praise the Lord! He will gather His faithful people into His Land.

    Reference: REB. Some verses abridged
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2019
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