When Is It Time To Die?

[bbyrd009]

And he wrote children's Bible stories that are some of the best ever written.
And yet he died an athiest.

guess i'll have to check out his Bible stories, must be interesting, coming from an atheist?
seems like an oxymoron to me, but i wouldn't be surprised if they were great

 

[bbyrd009]

I went and saw my 3 sisters for dinner
Had a good time
And you?

ah, i'm a Passover type lol. Eat standing up, the whole bit.
fully clothed, ready to walk out the door.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

well, we might contemplate the v,
19If we have put our hope in Christ for this life only, we should be pitied more than anyone

which can be understood one way, or another way, as noted; or see that Paul is quoted as saying
"to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord," when that cannot really be quoted, etc.

or--and i could go on all day here; surely you could even add to the list--we might examine this "i am not long for this world, i'm eighty years old, and going to some place that i have been assured of by some ordained guy, but cannot really quote from Scripture" whatever language, in stead of "leave the world right now, if you seek to follow Christ," (paraphrased) and "you and your sons will be here with me." And "no one knows where they go when they die," and "we do not yet know what we will be."

see, you kind of have to pick one, the two do not go together

you say "being absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" is something we cannot really quote...
Why do you say that?
It sounds very much like your personal opinion without an explanation
you do that a lot
and get away with it
but not with me

I know where I go when I die
I go into the presence of Jesus Christ
If you have a real true relationship with the Holy Spirit, then you will know that too.

 

[bbyrd009]

Why do you say that?
It sounds very much like your personal opinion without an explanation
you do that a lot
and get away with it
but not with me

then quote it and let's see Rollo. but really i state that so that someone will be prompted to go and try, strictly for personal growth, ok, not so that we can play duelling Scriptures. If you believe that that is what Paul said, then go and verify it iow.

 

[bbyrd009]

I know where I go when I die
I go into the presence of Jesus Christ
If you have a real true relationship with the Holy Spirit, then you will know that too.

"no one knows where they go when they die."
"all go to the same place."
"you and your sons will be here with me."

so while i can't disagree with you, i can suggest that your terms there can provoke one to...idealized determinations, from desire and expectation, that may or may not be true. Christ came that we might have life, more abundantly, right

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

then quote it and let's see Rollo. but really i state that so that someone will be prompted to go and try, strictly for personal growth, ok, not so that we can play duelling Scriptures. If you believe that that is what Paul said, then go and verify it iow.

No, you've made a philosophical quote on Paul
You explain it

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

"no one knows where they go when they die."
"all go to the same place."
"you and your sons will be here with me."

so while i can't disagree with you, i can suggest that your terms there can provoke one to...idealized determinations, from desire and expectation, that may or may not be true. Christ came that we might have life, more abundantly, right

You can never prove me wrong until you allow yourself to experience what I've experienced

 

[bbyrd009]

No, you've made a philosophical quote on Paul
You explain it

well here it is, i mean one can either think Paul said that or not i guess right
2 Corinthians 5:8 Lexicon: we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

 

[bbyrd009]

You can never prove me wrong until you allow yourself to experience what I've experienced

at least until you start telling me that you aren't long for this world, i agree. But see, it isn't hard to hear when the Promised Land has been turned into a Promised Heaven, or when Life, more abundantly has been morphed into Death, more abundantly, once you know what to listen for; proof becomes irrelevant, because the point is already made.

and pls don't take this as some condemnation of your "final state" ok, i don't mean that at all.
I don't even know what i will become, so i certainly don't mean to be commenting on others' "final state."
imo you are correct there, we are all judged differently. One should only compare themselves to themselves imo.

i guess i can't avoid uncovering father's nakedness here for some people though, but this is also a personal decision, more or less. I'm confident those ppl don't read me much anyway, and i mostly try to obey the directive as best i can.

i don't perceive anyone's personal beliefs as "evil" either; i used to believe all that stuff too.
The only thing that changes is perspective, imo.

 

[bbyrd009]

Where did we ever get that anyone will be condemned for their beliefs, anyway?
this seems to have become a central "Christian" tenet, right, but who can Quote it?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

at least until you start telling me that you aren't long for this world, i agree. But see, it isn't hard to hear when the Promised Land has been turned into a Promised Heaven, or when Life, more abundantly has been morphed into Death, more abundantly, once you know what to listen for; proof becomes irrelevant, because the point is already made.

and pls don't take this as some condemnation of your "final state" ok, i don't mean that at all.
I don't even know what i will become, so i certainly don't mean to be commenting on others' "final state."
imo you are correct there, we are all judged differently. One should only compare themselves to themselves imo.

i guess i can't avoid uncovering father's nakedness here for some people though, but this is also a personal decision, more or less. I'm confident those ppl don't read me much anyway, and i mostly try to obey the directive as best i can.

i don't perceive anyone's personal beliefs as "evil" either; i used to believe all that stuff too.
The only thing that changes is perspective, imo.

The problem here is that you are generalizing that all people believe what you say they believe, and that is not true.
Therefore, your opinions here are nothing more than your opinions.

 

[bbyrd009]

The problem here is that you are generalizing that all people believe what you say they believe, and that is not true.
Therefore, your opinions here are nothing more than your opinions.

i'd disagree with any other characterization, yeh
better to speak generally imo, everyone's beliefs are diff anyway, you believe one can confess to God, and that you know you are going somewhere when you die, in defiance of Scripture, etc

imo the best comparison of your beliefs is made with your former self, reading year old posts, etc, 5 year old posts, like that. Looking back in a journal maybe

 

[amadeus]

You need to explain it better
You are constantly confusing people.
.....
Where do you stand?
I don't think anyone on this forum knows for sure

And probably on many points @bbyrd009 he does not know either. Perhaps that a bit more of honesty than many others manifest.
Confused?
Consider the Tower of Babel:

"And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.
And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth." Gen 11:3-4

Hey, they all were working together and were all speaking the same language and they were all reaching for "heaven". With all of that they were confused. They were working on a Tower of "Confusion" [that is what Babel means]. It sounds quite a bit like what I see around me today. God confused their languages to give them the opportunity to look for God outside of their one language organization, away from their unlearned and lying ministers [some of them perhaps unintentionally, but nonetheless] .

Not many of them according to what I see did then and not many of the many in today's multitude of members in supposedly a multitude of Christian organizations are really looking for a closer walk with God. They want to be comfortable in their own little group of "believers" so they can sit back, close their eyes and ears while enjoying the pleasures they have found in this world of men, under redefined group of people called "Christians". They seems to continuously to be showing more and more evidence of double mindedness:

"Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?" James 3:10-11

It really "ought not so to be", but quite often nonetheless, it is. But, consider also:

"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." I Cor 14:33

Was Paul writing about the same "churches" that we see around us today?
Hmmm?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

at least until you start telling me that you aren't long for this world, i agree. But see, it isn't hard to hear when the Promised Land has been turned into a Promised Heaven, or when Life, more abundantly has been morphed into Death, more abundantly, once you know what to listen for; proof becomes irrelevant, because the point is already made.

and pls don't take this as some condemnation of your "final state" ok, i don't mean that at all.
I don't even know what i will become, so i certainly don't mean to be commenting on others' "final state."
imo you are correct there, we are all judged differently. One should only compare themselves to themselves imo.

i guess i can't avoid uncovering father's nakedness here for some people though, but this is also a personal decision, more or less. I'm confident those ppl don't read me much anyway, and i mostly try to obey the directive as best i can.

i don't perceive anyone's personal beliefs as "evil" either; i used to believe all that stuff too.
The only thing that changes is perspective, imo.

Everyone wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die.
We seem to be made that way.
Fight to the end serving God, but as Paul said "I fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith".
Now he is ready to receive his Crown of Righteous on that glorious day, not only for him but for all of us who believe as he did.
Will that include you?

 

[tabletalk]

Everyone wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die.
We seem to be made that way.
Fight to the end serving God, but as Paul said "I fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith".
Now he is ready to receive his Crown of Righteous on that glorious day, not only for him but for all of us who believe as he did.
Will that include you?

Paul wanted to die.
From 2Corinthians 5: 7. For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

 

[bbyrd009]

Everyone wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die.
We seem to be made that way.

yes, the pagan belief in a separate heaven is pervasive, and to me it is nothing short of Inspired how Scripture deals with the subject in this light, being as how it was also pervasive then; those who do not grasp "die daily" will then go on to misinterpret...all of the other vv on the matter, i guess.

They will manifest the choice by fighting--an outside enemy will always be perceived in these models, i think--and simultaneously making up scenarios of pillows and soft landings, etc for themselves. Money will become a factor. National pride will be warped and abused, as the ppl are simultaneously disinherited from their land.

All of these happen, eternally, whenever Promised Land is turned into Promised Heaven, i think.
It gets worse, but why belabor the point

Fight to the end serving God, but as Paul said "I fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith".

what Paul is actually saying there is "don't fight" and "don't race," but i guess this is kind of hard to read at first. An NT study of "fight" kinda helps imo, Bible Search: fight NT, and i am not denying Paul said this ok, but it should be tempered by other important points in the passage, 4They will turn away from hearing the truth and will turn aside to myths occurs 3 vv earlier, and 10for Demas has deserted me ("Demas" = something like "Popular") comes right after.

So one valid argument to your interpretation will be that if the interp is popular, it is surely incorrect; but we could spend the rest of the day digging unrealized truth from this passage i guess.

Now he is ready to receive his Crown of Righteous on that glorious day, not only for him but for all of us who believe as he did.
Will that include you?

i don't know this either, i certainly have a hope of this, but i don't think about tomorrow anymore--drives my friends nuts at first lol--and i do think there are more productive ways to understand what Paul means there. But they aren't going to be very pleasant to someone who believes that Paul was looking for heaven after he physically died, ok; iow the "popular" opinion that those who have "turned aside to myths" now believe.

No One knows where they go when they die
We do not yet know what we will become

"go to heaven, fight for God, fight the devil," all of these are crucial to your argument here, right, but none of them can be found in Scripture, speaking practically; the two instances of "go to heaven" are even instructive, i guess, Bible Search: go to heaven, note how we misinterpret the NT one there, too right? Doesn't everyone read "I'll see Him come down the same way they saw Him go up?"

We all love that Quote from 2 Timothy 4, right, but i tell you that that verse is one of the very few in that chapter that has almost no value at all when interpreted dialectically, although the truth is a bit harder to get to here than @ "absent from the body," where it is quite a bit more obvious.

but the same thing is going on; a verse that is not even the point of the passage is being picked out because...well, not too hard to see why i guess

 

[bbyrd009]

2 Timothy 4:8 Lexicon: in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

"in the future"
Strong's Greek: 3062. λοιποί (loipos) -- the rest, the remaining
(left, left behind, the remainder, the rest, the others)(!)

gee, where did tomorrow go, in this? lol. notice how artfully this is written in with those who have "loved His appearing," which is stated so broadly that one might still believe Paul meant "Christ's first coming" if they wish, and have not reflected on Paul's assurances in other passages that Christ is with him right then, or that "His appearing" is not past tense there, etc, despite the New Strong's assurances of "past or future," which Hebrews had tenses for, that are not used there.

iow if one believes that Christ has not yet appeared, then they cannot by definition be loving His appearance, right.

so wadr i will pass on the invite, as tempting as it is

 

[bbyrd009]

"Paul wanted to die."

there you go, follow this guy if you like
the choice is yours

Death, more abundantly is a very appealing belief, i guess

 

[bbyrd009]

Paul wanted to die.
From 2Corinthians 5: 7. For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

so then i guess if this is true, you better have some stories about how you were chased from town to town, ppl wanting to boil you in oil, etc, huh? Got one? Anyone?

we can go into how this actually manifests for believers, in the ignoring of their health, etc, the various other denials of today, and death by consumptions of various types later i guess.

2 Corinthians 5:9 Lexicon: Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.
is the point of that passage, right.

So if you believe that you should be craving literal death too, i will applaud you, ok, as long as your testimony lines up

 

[lforrest]

2 Timothy 4:8 Lexicon: in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

"in the future"
Strong's Greek: 3062. λοιποί (loipos) -- the rest, the remaining
(left, left behind, the remainder, the rest, the others)(!)

gee, where did tomorrow go, in this? lol. notice how artfully this is written in with those who have "loved His appearing," which is stated so broadly that one might still believe Paul meant "Christ's first coming" if they wish, and have not reflected on Paul's assurances in other passages that Christ is with him right then, or that "His appearing" is not past tense there, etc, despite the New Strong's assurances of "past or future," which Hebrews had tenses for, that are not used there.

iow if one believes that Christ has not yet appeared, then they cannot by definition be loving His appearance, right.

so wadr i will pass on the invite, as tempting as it is

People who hate his appearing do so because it marks the end of their own life.