When to Leave Church

[Ronald Nolette]

Well, whenever any sinner calls upon the name of the Lord for their salvation, they are praying to Jesus to save them. Plus He is at that throne of grace to pray to, for help in times of need when we are struggling with sin per Hebrews 4:12-16

Well I see in Scripture that God is a very loving and patient God. He will take people where they are at and teach them. I got saved as an agnostic/satanist. I went back to my Catholic roots when God got hold of me. I started reading the bible, but praying the rosary fiercely as well as doing all teh Catholic stuff. I wanted to get to know the God who loved me enough to save me. He took my faith, and taught me and led me away from the errors I knew to the truth I didn't know at the time.

I believe tongues is a legitimate gift for today! I also believe it is terribly understand and grossly abused. Besides going back to teh RCC I also found Catholic charismatic prayer groups. I know many people who babble in tongues do not have the gift, but I also know that if in their heart they are desiring to honor god_ He will lead them and pull them away from error into truth. If He would do that for me, I know He will do it for everyone who desires.

Well, whenever any sinner calls upon the name of the Lord for their salvation, they are praying to Jesus to save them. Plus He is at that throne of grace to pray to, for help in times of need when we are struggling with sin per Hebrews 4:12-16

Well when I pray with someone to receive Christ, I have them pray to the Father. I have taught many bible classes on the various aspects of prayer and have taught all my students- No praying to the Holy Spirit, No praying to Jesus, but definitely worship and adore Him, but pleas, petitions and intercessory prayer is directed to the Father alone.

I can only hope the Lord is using you to wean your church away from errors since God's gift of tongues are not for private use. 1 Corinthians 14:20-21 & 1 Corinthians 12:7 & 1 Corinthians 12:19-21 Those who have that kind of tongue usually are associated with having another drink of the One Spirit thus alluding to a second phenomenon that happens to a believer apart from salvation by how they got that kind of tongue.

They want to believe it is of God for why they do not care to test the spirits nor the tongues they bring.

Well I cannot speak for all teh varied doctrines out there. I deal with them as they come across my line of sight. My church does not accept tongues- the church is a Baptist church. But there is a prayer tongue Paul spoke of in Corinthians.

I also believe public utterances of tongues in the assembly while the preacher is preaching is not of God! Why would God interrupt the teaching of His Word with a commercial from the Spirit?

I think we need to be far more patient with believers who have been taught this way! God does not expect people to be perfect the moment they get saved and with all the crazy doctrines out there, lots of people hold lots of stuff because they were taught the Scriptures from an allegorical perspective! We must give them teh truth in love and leave the results to God! But if they are trusting in the death and resurrection of Jesus for their salvation, they are family and we must love them as such. they may be stunted in their growth and limited because of false teaching, but they are family.

it is the Word delivered in humilioty and love and directness that will deliver them and not ouor cajoling and accusations.

 

[atpollard]

And what is the conclusion for the title- when to leave church?

Yeah, I was thinking more along the lines of "after the sermon and before everyone starts to ask you about some relative that isn't there."

 

[atpollard]

When to leave church? If the service ends at 12:00, be out of there by 12:01 so you can beat the Baptists to the Cracker Barrel.

Won't work ... we sent an Usher ahead to save a big table.

 

[atpollard]

When a church refuses correction by the scripture and refuses to depart from iniquity, leave the church.

I know that believers say there is no perfect church but yet we are to correct one another in Christ's love and if the individual believer refuses to listen and even to repent before the whole congregation, then he is to be excommunicated from the assembly. So we ought to leave the assembly & leave them to Him to get the lost sheep, even if they do get excommunicated from the Marriage Supper in Heaven, for He shall lose none.

The Moravian Church has a motto that I find useful in many situations: "In essentials unity. In non-essentials liberty. In all things charity."

The breaking of fellowship, between individuals or between an individual and a congregation, is a serious matter of "last resort". It is never "joyful" and not something to be entered into lightly. It is a "spiritual divorce" within the Body of Christ (or more accurately, among those claiming to belong to the Body of Christ). It is a vow to NOT BE unevenly yoked any longer. As the saying goes ... "Them is fightin' words".

It is, in my opinion, of first importance to be certain that one is dealing with "essentials" before demanding unity. Violence against the body is only done to cut out the cancer and save the Body. One better make certain that one is dealing with a true cancer before one starts hacking off body parts.

I have come and gone from many local assemblies of believers over the last 40 years. Most often a change in where I lived or circumstances necessitated a change in where I worshiped for purely amicable and practical reasons (change of Job or home required relocating and finding a new local body to join). Only once have I felt the need to leave a church because of "essentials". A change of pastor within the church brought a likable youth pastor into the role of head pastor. I became aware of his beliefs that the miracles of Jesus were purely allegorical and designed to teach us moral lessons (the pastor did not believe that any of the miracles in the Bible actually happened). There was no point in arguing so fundamental a concept ... he and I worshiped completely a different Jesus. So I quietly presented my case to the Elder Board why I could not, as a matter of conscience, continue to serve as a Deacon. I laid the issue at the feet of those in responsible authority. I quietly resigned my position of service. I chose to attend another church rather than disrupt the services of that church.

There are few hills worth dying for. The deity of Christ is one hill worth dying for. The Truth of scripture is a hill worth dying for. The gift of salvation is a hill worth dying for. These are the "Third Rails" of Christianity - Mess with them and you die. These are what I view as "essentials" that demand unity. We can debate baptizing babies over a shared fellowship supper until the Lord calls us both home. We can disagree about 'monergism' and 'synergism' until we both get to heaven and God tells you that I was right. However, if you deny the essentials, you are messing with people hearing the truth about the Gospel ... so you and I are going to have a problem.

That's my 2 cents.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

The breaking of fellowship, between individuals or between an individual and a congregation, is a serious matter of "last resort"....to leave a church because of "essentials"....We can debate baptizing babies over a shared fellowship supper until the Lord calls us both home.

Correct, it was not easy, as you put it, after 11 years of faithfully serving God
in the tradition of being a Fundamental, Bible-believing baptist.

Then, finding out The Bible Has Only ONE Baptism, Under GRACE, today.

I did talk to the pastor, and, even "he agreed" all of Paul's verses on baptism
were spiritual, but then out came the red flag: "but we must always remember:
water baptism." So, then I went home to ponder more about this "essential"(?)

After praying some time about God's Math, That "ONE does not = TWO," I
departed, but they loved us and visited to "find out why." The second red flag
must have been an answer from God that solidified my decision:

They told me, "in our fellowship group we disagree with the teacher you have
been studying." (Interesting was the "Baptism And The Bible" book I found
in/borrowed from this pastor's library, was, as he said: "actually poison."
Now, beats me why someone would have "that" in their "warfare arsenal"?)

Ok then I thought about Jesus, Who "Came to His Own, and they received
HIM not." Did not they Disagree with Him, and Crucify Him? So, I learned we
should always be Very Careful about "what we say," eh?

I guess to some or most, water is not an "essential," despite all the Confusion/Criticism
about it being "Necessary for salvation" vs Not Necessary for salvation, BUT Is the
"Second Most Important Command Of CHRIST," after being saved???

Thanks for listening to someone who now is just a stranded Fundamental Bible believer.

GRACE And Peace...

 

[Christ4Me]

Well I see in Scripture that God is a very loving and patient God. He will take people where they are at and teach them. I got saved as an agnostic/satanist. I went back to my Catholic roots when God got hold of me. I started reading the bible, but praying the rosary fiercely as well as doing all teh Catholic stuff. I wanted to get to know the God who loved me enough to save me. He took my faith, and taught me and led me away from the errors I knew to the truth I didn't know at the time.

I believe tongues is a legitimate gift for today! I also believe it is terribly understand and grossly abused. Besides going back to teh RCC I also found Catholic charismatic prayer groups. I know many people who babble in tongues do not have the gift, but I also know that if in their heart they are desiring to honor god_ He will lead them and pull them away from error into truth. If He would do that for me, I know He will do it for everyone who desires.

And

Well I cannot speak for all teh varied doctrines out there. I deal with them as they come across my line of sight. My church does not accept tongues- the church is a Baptist church. But there is a prayer tongue Paul spoke of in Corinthians.

1 Corinthians 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. 13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Do ask wisdom from the Father than in Jesus's name because Paul was meaning while the Holy Spirt was manifesting tongues through Paul, Paul was praying that another will interpret that tongue so he would understand the tongue and that tongue would be fruitful to himself also.

This is why Paul was exhorting believers that when they seek a spiritual gift, to seek the gift of prophesy because the gift of tongues is not a stand alone gift to be using in the assembly and certainly not for private use since it needs interpretation for the tongue speaker to understand it & be fruitful to himself.

So God's gift of tongues was never meant for private use and because the Holy Spirit does not speak from Himself per John 16:13, He would not turn God's gift of tongues around that speaks unto the people TO speaking from Himself to God. That would make God the author of confusion and He is not. So there is a supernatural tongue out there that is gibberish nonsense that believers need to shun and pray normally so they know what they had prayed for so when they do get an answer to prayers, they can give the father thanks in Jesus's name for answers to prayers.

Well when I pray with someone to receive Christ, I have them pray to the Father. I have taught many bible classes on the various aspects of prayer and have taught all my students- No praying to the Holy Spirit, No praying to Jesus, but definitely worship and adore Him, but pleas, petitions and intercessory prayer is directed to the Father alone.

Presently as our Mediator, we can ask Jesus to ask the father for us but there is a day when we will no longer ask Jesus to ask the Father for us for in that day when we are in Heaven, we will see the father face t face to ask him ourselves for the Father loves us as much as Jesus does.

John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. 24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. 25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father. 26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: 27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. 28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

I also believe public utterances of tongues in the assembly while the preacher is preaching is not of God! Why would God interrupt the teaching of His Word with a commercial from the Spirit?

True. They take 1 Corinthians 14:28 to mean this is allowed when in actuality silence mean silence.

1 Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. 27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

If any one discern that verse with Him, they would know that Paul did not really mean that the person was speaking to himself and to God but that the person understands what he is saying as God does too. When you have a practice going on where 2 or 3 speak in tongues one at a time and then another interpret, a foreign visitor could speak out of turn and that is why when there is no interpretation to what he had said, he is commanded to be silent for he was not speaking with Gd's gift of tongues or else he would not understand what he was saying.

That is what was meant in 1 Corinthians 14:2 as the man speaks not unto himself but to God, meaning he does not understand it but God does, even though he is speaking in mysteries as he does not know what he is saying. This in context is Paul explaining why prophesy is better than tongues because tongues is not a stand alone gift for the edification of the body of Christ. That is why prophesy is the best gift to seek after over all spiritual gifts.

1 Corinthians 14:1Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. 2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. 3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

I think we need to be far more patient with believers who have been taught this way! God does not expect people to be perfect the moment they get saved and with all the crazy doctrines out there, lots of people hold lots of stuff because they were taught the Scriptures from an allegorical perspective! We must give them teh truth in love and leave the results to God! But if they are trusting in the death and resurrection of Jesus for their salvation, they are family and we must love them as such. they may be stunted in their growth and limited because of false teaching, but they are family.

it is the Word delivered in humilioty and love and directness that will deliver them and not ouor cajoling and accusations.

Well, I do get alarmed for my brothers & sisters but thanks to Him, I am getting better at not coming on strong but trust in Him as Lord, even if they are predestined to be left behind to die when their spirits will be with the Lord to await for their resurrection after the great tribulation.

He has to lead them to ask Him for wisdom and discernment for why tongues for private use can never be of Him when He is calling sinners out from the occult and idolatry where they speak in that same kind of tongues which is gibberish nonsense to a personal reconciled relationship with God the Father through the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Bridegroom by Whom we have been married to God by.

 

[Christ4Me]

The Moravian Church has a motto that I find useful in many situations: "In essentials unity. In non-essentials liberty. In all things charity."

The breaking of fellowship, between individuals or between an individual and a congregation, is a serious matter of "last resort". It is never "joyful" and not something to be entered into lightly. It is a "spiritual divorce" within the Body of Christ (or more accurately, among those claiming to belong to the Body of Christ). It is a vow to NOT BE unevenly yoked any longer. As the saying goes ... "Them is fightin' words".

It cannot be a vow when the excommunication is done in the hopes it will lead them to repentance. They are still married to Christ as in saved, but at risk of being denied attendance to the Marriage Supper in heaven, left behind to die, when their spirits will be with the Lord, to await for their resurrection after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in his House, vessels of wood & earth. Better to repent now than weep like Esau.

It is, in my opinion, of first importance to be certain that one is dealing with "essentials" before demanding unity. Violence against the body is only done to cut out the cancer and save the Body. One better make certain that one is dealing with a true cancer before one starts hacking off body parts.

Stripes are coming per the knowledge that believers had for not being ready when they get left behind & lesser stripes for the lack of knowledge that the believers did not have but still gets left behind any way. As it is painful stripes are coming. Luke 12:40-49

I believe the seal of adoption is not going any where for why the prodigal son is still son and why he will be coming home regardless. Having lost that inheritance, he has learned his lesson the hard way.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Just as the Father will chasten and scourge every son He receives that do not resist sin & that can involve being left behind.

Hebrews 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. 4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

I have come and gone from many local assemblies of believers over the last 40 years. Most often a change in where I lived or circumstances necessitated a change in where I worshiped for purely amicable and practical reasons (change of Job or home required relocating and finding a new local body to join). Only once have I felt the need to leave a church because of "essentials". A change of pastor within the church brought a likable youth pastor into the role of head pastor. I became aware of his beliefs that the miracles of Jesus were purely allegorical and designed to teach us moral lessons (the pastor did not believe that any of the miracles in the Bible actually happened). There was no point in arguing so fundamental a concept ... he and I worshiped completely a different Jesus. So I quietly presented my case to the Elder Board why I could not, as a matter of conscience, continue to serve as a Deacon. I laid the issue at the feet of those in responsible authority. I quietly resigned my position of service. I chose to attend another church rather than disrupt the services of that church.

There are few hills worth dying for. The deity of Christ is one hill worth dying for. The Truth of scripture is a hill worth dying for. The gift of salvation is a hill worth dying for. These are the "Third Rails" of Christianity - Mess with them and you die. These are what I view as "essentials" that demand unity. We can debate baptizing babies over a shared fellowship supper until the Lord calls us both home. We can disagree about 'monergism' and 'synergism' until we both get to heaven and God tells you that I was right. However, if you deny the essentials, you are messing with people hearing the truth about the Gospel ... so you and I are going to have a problem.

That's my 2 cents.

Jesus is warning believers to be ready or else. In the face of persecution, there is this warning:

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The English word "hell" was derived from "geena" of Gehenna which has been renamed by the Lord as meaning the valley of slaughter.

Jeremiah 19:6 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that this place shall no more be called Tophet, nor The valley of the son of Hinnom, but The valley of slaughter.

It is a hell on earth that left behind carnal believers and former believers will find themselves in when the Bridegroom has come & gone, leaving them behind when that hell comes on earth ( Luke 12:40-49 ) for not being ready as found abiding in Him & His words note verse 6 in John 15:1-8.

So those not found abiding in him will be left behind to die ( Revelation 2:18-25 ) for when their spirits will be with the Lord ( 2 Corinthians 5:7-11 ) waiting for their resurrection after the great tribulation ( Revelation 6:9-11 & Revelation 7:9-17 & Revelation 20:1-6). Of course, one can repent by asking Jesus for help to confess Him before men & the courage to die for Him even, but He can help & He can forgive them too for doing that.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The soul is the vitality of the life saved. If it gets destroyed, that is how a vessel unto honor, the vessels of golf & silver that would have been as the angels that never die & never marry, but found in iniquity, becomes the vessel unto dishonor, the vessel of earth & wood, to be resurrected after the great tribulation to eat from the tree of life for the healing of the nations, marry, and rule with Christ as kings & priests from all over the world.

Jesus is Lord and we can trust Him that those who would have listened will have the meat to repent and those who follow the crowd will not listen.

 

[farouk]

It cannot be a vow when the excommunication is done in the hopes it will lead them to repentance. They are still married to Christ as in saved, but at risk of being denied attendance to the Marriage Supper in heaven, left behind to die, when their spirits will be with the Lord, to await for their resurrection after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in his House, vessels of wood & earth. Better to repent now than weep like Esau.



Stripes are coming per the knowledge that believers had for not being ready when they get left behind & lesser stripes for the lack of knowledge that the believers did not have but still gets left behind any way. As it is painful stripes are coming. Luke 12:40-49

I believe the seal of adoption is not going any where for why the prodigal son is still son and why he will be coming home regardless. Having lost that inheritance, he has learned his lesson the hard way.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Just as the Father will chasten and scourge every son He receives that do not resist sin & that can involve being left behind.

Hebrews 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. 4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.



Jesus is warning believers to be ready or else. In the face of persecution, there is this warning:

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The English word "hell" was derived from "geena" of Gehenna which has been renamed by the Lord as meaning the valley of slaughter.

Jeremiah 19:6 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that this place shall no more be called Tophet, nor The valley of the son of Hinnom, but The valley of slaughter.

It is a hell on earth that left behind carnal believers and former believers will find themselves in when the Bridegroom has come & gone, leaving them behind when that hell comes on earth ( Luke 12:40-49 ) for not being ready as found abiding in Him & His words note verse 6 in John 15:1-8.

So those not found abiding in him will be left behind to die ( Revelation 2:18-25 ) for when their spirits will be with the Lord ( 2 Corinthians 5:7-11 ) waiting for their resurrection after the great tribulation ( Revelation 6:9-11 & Revelation 7:9-17 & Revelation 20:1-6). Of course, one can repent by asking Jesus for help to confess Him before men & the courage to die for Him even, but He can help & He can forgive them too for doing that.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The soul is the vitality of the life saved. If it gets destroyed, that is how a vessel unto honor, the vessels of golf & silver that would have been as the angels that never die & never marry, but found in iniquity, becomes the vessel unto dishonor, the vessel of earth & wood, to be resurrected after the great tribulation to eat from the tree of life for the healing of the nations, marry, and rule with Christ as kings & priests from all over the world.

Jesus is Lord and we can trust Him that those who would have listened will have the meat to repent and those who follow the crowd will not listen.

@Christ4Me I don't understand the idea of a partial marriage supper of the Lamb, or a partial rapture, for that matter.

 

[atpollard]

Thanks for listening to someone who now is just a stranded Fundamental Bible believer.

GRACE And Peace...

I’m glad God saves all the really hard decisions for Himself. I know that I would not want to have to choose “whose baptism counts” or “who was REALLY saved”. Even if I could, I don’t think that I would want to make those choices.

For me “stay or go” comes down to your closing line … “GRACE And Peace”. Which choice lies in the direction of GRACE and PEACE? I am hard wired to ‘fight’. So I need to tread lightly. From experience, I choose to fight for the weak against bullies and to just shrug and shake off the dust of fools. I am responsible for telling the truth; God is in charge of making people believe it.

Now when I stumble upon a group from a “Church of Christ” explaining to some kid that just became a Christian that he is not really saved because he was not baptized correctly … then I am all too happy to roll up my sleeves and get into a “discussion” with them, and their elders and their pastor about what the WORD OF GOD ACTUALLY SAYS! You want to pick on a baby christian, try picking on me - I’ll eat your lunch.

When it comes to a group of people in a church that are just wrong - disrupting their lives will bring “Grace and Peace” to no one, so it is better to shake off some dust and leave them to God to deal with. Last I checked, God doesn’t need my help. He has everything under control.

 

[Christ4Me]

@Christ4Me I don't understand the idea of a partial marriage supper of the Lamb, or a partial rapture, for that matter.

We are all at different growths in our walk with the Lord; some have even gone astray into carnal sins reaping corruptions, some are ensnared by the cares of this life, some are engaging in dead works that deny Him, and even some stop believing in Him because of the lie of the evolution theory or something else. Jesus described the falling away from the faith ( Matthew 7:13-27 ) that He posed the question about finding faith in all the earth; Luke 18:8 I believe that is why the times of the Gentiles is coming to an end because after the rapture, the dispensation of the gospel goes back to the Jews, the 144,000 witnesses for the duration of the great tribulation.

That means judgment is coming on the House of God first 1 Peter 4:17 and He will judge in that day what is on that foundation as those who defile the temple of God ( 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 ) will be left behind to die but their spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven ( 2 Corinthians 5:7-11 & Revelation 7:9-17 ) to await their resurrection after the great tribulation ( Revelation 20:1-6 ).

Jesus has warned believers to be ready or else; this is not a works based salvation when those left behind are still saved, but are being damned as vessels unto dishonor in His House, vessels of wood & earth, to serve the King of kings on earth after the great tribulation.

Running that race is what being His disciple is all about as we run it by faith in Jesus Christ, looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin in walking in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son to be received by the Bridegroom as that vessel unto honor which is the high prize of our calling to be partakers of the firstfruits of the resurrection when we will be like the angels that never die nor marry.

Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Those resurrected after the great tribulation will not be like that. The prodigal son lost his inheritance to wild living but he is still son.

With all that is going on in Christian churches, is why many are not going to be ready as found abiding in Him when He comes, and that is why the rapture is God as the Bridegroom is judging His House, excommunicating those not ready ( Luke 12:40-49 & john 15:1-8 & Revelation 2:18-25 ) as well as those not willing to leave this life behind ( Luke 14:15-24 & Luke 21:33-36 & like Lot's wife in Luke 17:26-37 ).

That is why there will be a partial rapture and that is why those carnal saints and former believers left behind are still saved for He shall lose none.

 

[farouk]

We are all at different growths in our walk with the Lord; some have even gone astray into carnal sins reaping corruptions, some are ensnared by the cares of this life, some are engaging in dead works that deny Him, and even some stop believing in Him because of the lie of the evolution theory or something else. Jesus described the falling away from the faith ( Matthew 7:13-27 ) that He posed the question about finding faith in all the earth; Luke 18:8 I believe that is why the times of the Gentiles is coming to an end because after the rapture, the dispensation of the gospel goes back to the Jews, the 144,000 witnesses for the duration of the great tribulation.

That means judgment is coming on the House of God first 1 Peter 4:17 and He will judge in that day what is on that foundation as those who defile the temple of God ( 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 ) will be left behind to die but their spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven ( 2 Corinthians 5:7-11 & Revelation 7:9-17 ) to await their resurrection after the great tribulation ( Revelation 20:1-6 ).

Jesus has warned believers to be ready or else; this is not a works based salvation when those left behind are still saved, but are being damned as vessels unto dishonor in His House, vessels of wood & earth, to serve the King of kings on earth after the great tribulation.

Running that race is what being His disciple is all about as we run it by faith in Jesus Christ, looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin in walking in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son to be received by the Bridegroom as that vessel unto honor which is the high prize of our calling to be partakers of the firstfruits of the resurrection when we will be like the angels that never die nor marry.

Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Those resurrected after the great tribulation will not be like that. The prodigal son lost his inheritance to wild living but he is still son.

With all that is going on in Christian churches, is why many are not going to be ready as found abiding in Him when He comes, and that is why the rapture is God as the Bridegroom is judging His House, excommunicating those not ready ( Luke 12:40-49 & john 15:1-8 & Revelation 2:18-25 ) as well as those not willing to leave this life behind ( Luke 14:15-24 & Luke 21:33-36 & like Lot's wife in Luke 17:26-37 ).

That is why there will be a partial rapture and that is why those carnal saints and former believers left behind are still saved for He shall lose none.

I don't see a partial rapture because it seems to bring in a partly works based meritorious reason for being caught up or not as the case may be. Whereas as I see Scripture saying we depend wholly on the finished work of Christ for salvation.

At times in Matthew it seems to be tribulation saints in view rather than the church.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Do ask wisdom from the Father than in Jesus's name because Paul was meaning while the Holy Spirt was manifesting tongues through Paul, Paul was praying that another will interpret that tongue so he would understand the tongue and that tongue would be fruitful to himself also.

This is why Paul was exhorting believers that when they seek a spiritual gift, to seek the gift of prophesy because the gift of tongues is not a stand alone gift to be using in the assembly and certainly not for private use since it needs interpretation for the tongue speaker to understand it & be fruitful to himself.

Sorry but teh construct is showing Paul speaking of two instances.

Public utterance and private prayer utterance. Look at teh passage.

So God's gift of tongues was never meant for private use

Yes because Paul directly says tongues edifies the individual- who then can edify the church.

 

[Christ4Me]

Sorry but teh construct is showing Paul speaking of two instances.

Public utterance and private prayer utterance. Look at teh passage.

Yes because Paul directly says tongues edifies the individual- who then can edify the church.

2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Yet by those same passages of reading tongues for private use, they list all those benefits as if Paul was ignorant that the gift of tongues is way better than the gift of prophesy to seek after when he was exhorting prophesy over all spiritual gifts from verse 1 & began comparing tongues with prophesy to prove why, because tongues is not a stand alone gift.

They ignore the bottom line Paul have about tongues which was for speaking unto the people ( 1 Corinthians 14:20-21 ) just as they ignore the precedent for the manifestations of those gifts in the assembly was to profit the body withal ( 1 Corinthians 12:7 ) and not individually as if tongues can be used for private use without needing another member of the body to interpret it. 1 Corinthians 12:19-21

The parallel of the verse of tongues for self edification against prophesy was to show why prophesy is better because tongues needs interpretation for the tongue speaker to understand it, being spoken in mysteries, otherwise it is not fruitful to the tongue speaker.

If it bears interpretation in the assembly for that tongue to be understood and fruitful even for the tongue speaker, then it can never be for private use because the tongue speaker cannot know out of all those so called supposed benefits for tongues in private use, what that tongue is doing, thus making God the author of confusion which He is not, because that tongue is not of Him at all.

What necessity for the holy Spirit to pray in tongues? None. The necessity for Paul to pray while the holy Spirit is manifesting tongues in him is so that someone else in the assembly may interpret that tongue so Paul may understand it and be fruitful to himself as a tongue speaker. So the notion that it can be for private use is null and void because he is praying that tongue will be interpret in the assembly so he would understand it & be fruitful. If it can be really for private use, why pray for that tongue to be interpreted in the assembly?

If you believe the lie that the Holy Spirit has to pray in a secret language, so the devil does not know what the holy Spirit is praying for to prevent His prayer from happening, then remember the Book of Job in how the devil cannot do anything without God's permission.

Since the Father knows before we ask anything in prayer, why does the holy Spirit need to pray anything out loud when the Father already knows?

Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

I really believe the Gnostics ( secret knowledge or hidden knowledge ) were using that kind of tongue for private use as self edification for why I believe Paul was rebuking that practice here below to read the scriptures instead.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

So not only does that tongue takes the believer away from praying normally, but in reading the scripture for their actual self edification as it bears obvious fruit in understanding what is being written.

For praying in tongues quietly in church is an unrealistic reading into the scripture when we know fellow believers do not like any one whispering next to them as it is distracting and makes it hard to hear the sermon as you have pointed out earlier in this thread.

 

[Christ4Me]

Here is another reason for leaving a church and that is by how God will have vengeance on saved believers for taking communion for more than in remembrance of Him only.

God Will Have Vengeance on His People

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Well, I do get alarmed for my brothers & sisters but thanks to Him, I am getting better at not coming on strong but trust in Him as Lord, even if they are predestined to be left behind to die when their spirits will be with the Lord to await for their resurrection after the great tribulation.

He has to lead them to ask Him for wisdom and discernment for why tongues for private use can never be of Him when He is calling sinners out from the occult and idolatry where they speak in that same kind of tongues which is gibberish nonsense to a personal reconciled relationship with God the Father through the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Bridegroom by Whom we have been married to God by.

We all have to ask. If a person is saved in a particular way of looking at Scripture, they are as saved as we are! all of us are unknowing heretics simply because none of us have a full lock on Scriptures! Strong action only should come when one becomes intransient. But know this when the rapture occurs- all believers will be caught up. No one will be left behind that is a child of God.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yet by those same passages of reading tongues for private use, they list all those benefits as if Paul was ignorant that the gift of tongues is way better than the gift of prophesy to seek after when he was exhorting prophesy over all spiritual gifts from verse 1 & began comparing tongues with prophesy to prove why, because tongues is not a stand alone gift.

Paul simply said there are advantages ot that gift frlm teh spirit, but was not better than other gifts.

They ignore the bottom line Paul have about tongues which was for speaking unto the people ( 1 Corinthians 14:20-21 ) just as they ignore the precedent for the manifestations of those gifts in the assembly was to profit the body withal ( 1 Corinthians 12:7 ) and not individually as if tongues can be used for private use without needing another member of the body to interpret it. 1 Corinthians 12:19-21

Well I have not surveyed all tongue speakers so I can't give such definitive answers as you do!

But Paul said since He spoke in tongues of angels as well! That throws another wrench oin the whole tongue controversy. And if one edifies himself- He would then edify the body!

So not only does that tongue takes the believer away from praying normally, but in reading the scripture for their actual self edification as it bears obvious fruit in understanding what is being written.

For praying in tongues quietly in church is an unrealistic reading into the scripture when we know fellow believers do not like any one whispering next to them as it is distracting and makes it hard to hear the sermon as you have pointed out earlier in this thread.

To your first statment, that is why Paul said that when they prayi in tongues, they should pray for teh understanding as well!

Other thasn times of corporate prayer, no one should be praying in church when the service is going on! they should be listening .

 

[Christ4Me]

We all have to ask. If a person is saved in a particular way of looking at Scripture, they are as saved as we are! all of us are unknowing heretics simply because none of us have a full lock on Scriptures! Strong action only should come when one becomes intransient. But know this when the rapture occurs- all believers will be caught up. No one will be left behind that is a child of God.

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?

Now ask Jesus for wisdom to see how Jesus answers Peter's question.

42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.

So Jesus is addressing all saved believers and not just His disciples to be ready or else.

45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

We know He is warning all saved believers that are not ready by how they will get cut off to have their "portions" with unbelievers on earth.

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

We can see how He will judged those saved believers left behind per the knowledge they had for not being ready with many stripes and how He will judge those saved left behind per the lack of knowledge they did not have for not being ready with lesser stripes, but they will get stripes.

So I can see the urgency for why Jesus is warning believers to be ready by trusting Him to get them ready & willing to go or else.

49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

That is what Peter was talking about by enduring to the end in being saved from that fire that is coming on the earth. 2 Peter 3:3-18

 

[Christ4Me]

Paul simply said there are advantages ot that gift frlm teh spirit, but was not better than other gifts.

1 Corinthians 14:1Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

Well I have not surveyed all tongue speakers so I can't give such definitive answers as you do!

But Paul said since He spoke in tongues of angels as well! That throws another wrench oin the whole tongue controversy. And if one edifies himself- He would then edify the body!

Not really because Paul was using a hyperbole, an exaggerated example which is not stating an obvious reality. Read on and see.

1 Corinthians 13:1Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

I assure you that the tongues of angels will not be gibberish nonsense as found in the occult in Isaiah 8:19, but there is no necessity to speak the tongues of angels when they can understand us quite well without it because they can speak our language. It is an exaggeration since we are not to speak to angels in the first place so why speak in tongues of angels? So Paul is giving a hyperbole of something he can do as if he can speak all the languages of men and of angels but have not love... then he is just noise.

Then Paul went on to another hyperbole, another exaggeration where he would have the gift of prophecy and understand all mysteries and have all knowledge and have the faith to move mountains, but have not love, he is nothing still.

So Paul is not saying he has those tongues or those other things, but emphasizing how important love is to those exaggerated things.

Certainly Paul has not bestow all his goods to feed the poor and has given his body to be burned, for surely that would be a miracle for how he is writing this! Paul has become the Ghost Writer!!! But no. It is about citing extreme examples to show that if we did all those things, and have not love, we are nothing.

To your first statment, that is why Paul said that when they prayi in tongues, they should pray for teh understanding as well!

But it is his spirit that is praying, not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is manifesting tongues through Paul, but while that is going on, Paul is praying for the understanding as well, otherwise that tongue being manifested through him by the Holy Ghost will be unfruitful to him until it is interpreted.

Other thasn times of corporate prayer, no one should be praying in church when the service is going on! they should be listening .

Not sure how many modern day tongue speakers agree with you on that as some do apply these two verses as if they are allowed to in service.

1 Corinthians 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

They ignore "let him keep silence in the church" as if the latter part actually meant to pray in tongue quietly. And they add....

39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

While ignoring the last verse;

40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

Now you see the truth that there should not be any one praying in tongues during service, and yet you have to ask yourself, why would God do that? Answer; He wouldn't.

Just as He would not manifest tongues in women to break the Lord's commandment for them not to speak in church either.

I know some fake tongues to fit in, some fake tongues to draw attention to themselves, but there is a pagan supernatural tongue in the world that is just gibberish nonsense as scripture confirms as existing before Pentecost in the occult Isaiah 8:19.

Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

God's gift of tongues is for speaking unto the people and we ae to hold fast that which is good, but shun praying in tongues because it sounds the same as the pagan supernatural tongue as found in the world.

Believers excuse it as saying well Satan copy cat God's tongues. but no. The real God's gift of tongues IS for speaking unto the people and when it is not coming with interpretation and thus assumed for private use is when they should have discerned instead, that it not of Him at all to shun it.

 

[Christ4Me]

I don't see a partial rapture because it seems to bring in a partly works based meritorious reason for being caught up or not as the case may be. Whereas as I see Scripture saying we depend wholly on the finished work of Christ for salvation.

At times in Matthew it seems to be tribulation saints in view rather than the church.

Since the saints not ready as found abiding in Him and former believers that gets left behind, are saved, then running that race is not for obtaining salvation but to be accepted by Him to attend the Marriage Supper in Heaven as a vessel unto honor in His House which is the high prize of our calling.

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

So what is that terror Paul is referring to but giving in to the flesh, defiling the temple of God, and reaping corruption thus becoming a castaway?

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

 

[ScottA]

No. Sorry for the confusion. By citing the example of an unrepentant believer for why he needs to be excommunicated by the church, we should leave the church when the church is unrepentant.

That would mean Light having communion with darkness, of which--truly, there should be none:

2 Corinthians 6:14
Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?​

One has to wonder if a church is compromising for the sake of keeping members by not excommunicating an unrepentant believer. That is not taking care of the body of Christ but taking care of revenue coming into the church.

I would say that more times than not, it is simply a matter of the church leaders putting their pearls out to the saints, while among them are a few tares. Which they likely tolerate somewhat with hopes that they can plant seeds, but also water and see growth.

Which is not to say that I support those leaders who enable on going sin. But, it would also be wrong not to allow time for change and to show mercy, by prematurely throwing the Book at them.

Each case is perhaps different.