When to look for the rapture of the church

[Taken]

No tribulation, just in evangelicals mind.

Narrow human judgement.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Trekson]

Assuming you agree that "one week" (literally one heptad or seven) means seven years, we know precisely from Scripture that Satan and the Antichist are allotted 42 months for their nefarious machinations (Rev 13:5).

But that is not the end of the matter. We also have "time, times, and half a time" (or the dividing of time), and we have one thousand two hundred and three score days, all connected to the Tribulation and the reign of the Antichrist. See Revelation 11-13 as well as Daniel.

So 1260 days (the woman) = 42 months (two witnesses, the Gentiles) = time (1 yr) + times (2 years) + half a time (6 months) = 3 1/2 years. (the woman, a/c)

And 7 years - 3 1/2 years = 3 1/2 years.

Yes, I'm aware of that, but the bible doesn't define whether the 1290 or 1335 days are part of the 70th week or not and let's not forget the 2300 days that supposed to be part of this equation. Jesus said no man would know the day nor the hour of his return and I believe that includes both in the air and on the land. Like I said, it makes a nice neat package but prophesy is anything but. The first time one of those time units is mentioned is Rev. 11 and the last in cp. 13 and one can't deny that what the seven thunders said or what's written in the little book might affect this timeline somehow. What part of those timelines are the trumpet judgments? I think it's safe to assume the vials are towards the end of the 70th week. What part are the seals? Are we sure that ANY or ALL of the seals are even within the context of the 70th week? You see, we put them in these nice little time constraints but the bible doesn't. The bible doesn't say that he will return on day 2521 or on day 1261, we assume it based on the time periods we are given but we all know what happens when we assume things.

 

[Trekson]

.John Nelson Darby came along. He broke off from the Plymouth Brethren over theological disputes. Founder of the Exclusive Brethren sect, Darby invented pre-tribulation rapture theolog

Let's clarify that it is a "pre-trib" rapture that was new. I can give you quotes from some of the early church fathers that affirm a belief in the fact of the rapture itself.

 

[Stranger]

“...In the temple of God...”

It is not His temple. That is the point. Not saying you are wrong only that I’m struggling to understand or see how He cast down the stones and said God no longer dwells in temples made with hands...how then is this new temple built of man the place where God dwells and is called “the temple of God.” When God said He is building up a Spiritual house of God where His Son is the foundation and, here is where God dwells.



Not sure what “platonic philosophy” is. But ok.

The Church serves as the temple on earth today. This consists of every born-again believer. The Spirit of God dwells there. When the Church is removed at the Rapture, that temple is gone. This paves the way for God to begin again with Israel, and the rebuilding of the third temple.

It is the idea that because something is material that it can't be spiritually good. Was the Tabernacle made of earthly things? But was it not a spiritual house? Was the temple of Solomon made of earthly things? And was it not a spiritual house?

And, just because something is spiritual doesn't guarantee it is good. There is spiritual rebellion in Heaven at this time with satan and his angels.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Didn’t say evil. Decaying. Passing away. Romans 8:20-21 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, [21] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Just because something is 'material' doesn't mean it is not of God. Look at (Ezekiel 40-46). There you have the drawings for the millennial Temple which is yet to be built. It will be made of earth and stone. But, it will be of God.

Stranger

 

[Copperhead]

No, the bereans were not a positive thing.

Oh my. Now that you deny the HS witness of these things, I think I have a bead on where you are at.

Acts 17:10-12 Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so. 12 Therefore many of them believed, and also not a few of the Greeks, prominent women as well as men.

 

[Copperhead]

Only Man worked to bring the Jews back to the Land, not God at all

Well, it wasn't a Moses leading the Hebrews out of Egypt and crossing the Red Sea event, but I am more convinced than ever that it was directed by YHWH. YHWH has used humans to accomplish what He wants many times in scripture. Even Cyrus was called "my anointed" by YHWH. And he was a pagan earthly ruler.

But when one takes the cumulative 430 years in Ezekiel 4, separates out the 70 years exile in Babylon, places the warnings of Leviticus 26 on top of that, and does just a little bit of grade school math, one is led to see that the modern state of Israel coming into being in May 1948 is not a coincidence. "coincidence" is not a "kosher" word, so to speak.

 

[Copperhead]

Back to Heaven. He was sent from Heaven on the Day of Pentecost to fulfil a number of ministries. When the Church has been completed, It will be removed to Heaven, along with the Holy Spirit so that the Antichrist can take TOTAL CONTROL of the inhabitants of the world. See 2 Thess 2.

I am not sure that is quite true. While the HS is indeed taken out of the way, I believe He hands off the church to Yeshua at the removal of the righteous event, and then it is just like a guard in American football stepping aside and allowing the opposition to burst thru to the backfield and sack the quarterback. Just what the text says, the HS no longer restrains or holds back.

I am convinced the HS is everywhere since He does not have a physical body like Yeshua. So I am not sold on the idea that the HS returns to heaven, as it were.

The Story of the servant going and getting a wife for Isaac in Genesis 24 is a wonderful illustration of what the HS role is in securing a bride (the church) for Messiah.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Just because something is 'material' doesn't mean it is not of God. Look at (Ezekiel 40-46). There you have the drawings for the millennial Temple which is yet to be built. It will be made of earth and stone. But, it will be of God.

Stranger

The house is Spiritual. 43 And the hooks, a handbreadth long, were fastened within round about: and upon the tables was the flesh of the oblation.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Let's clarify that it is a "pre-trib" rapture that was new. I can give you quotes from some of the early church fathers that affirm a belief in the fact of the rapture itself.

Yes, many ECF were premillennial, but they were not pre-trib premillennial. I read where a few through the annals of time held to Darby’s views, but he was the first to systematize it.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The Church serves as the temple on earth today. This consists of every born-again believer. The Spirit of God dwells there. When the Church is removed at the Rapture, that temple is gone.

That is what I thought you would say. Every belief you hold tight to rest in one event...the rapture of the church. If the church isn’t raptured out...if the true living temple of God that host His presence is not removed then all rapture believers have a problem. When this new temple of God is built and the church is still here...which is God’s temple? The one made with the hands of man ...or the One made without hands. Could show you the rapture is when one is snatched from out of the Fire. No longer consumed. When one is snatched ‘seized’ as no longer of God’s wrath. Could give you scripture to support it even with the word harpazo used in the definition of the passages. But why when you’ll refuse to even consider God created the children in Christ to “endure” all things for His good purpose and plan...even being IN the Fire but not OF the Fire.

It is the idea that because something is material that it can't be spiritually good. Was the Tabernacle made of earthly things? But was it not a spiritual house? Was the temple of Solomon made of earthly things? And was it not a spiritual house?

Of course it was good. Daniel 2:31
[31] Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.

Adam was also good but God removed Adam from His height over all things for the Son of God(Christ)to be exalted above all things. The image in Daniel rejected the Rock and like Adam it was cast down FOR whose brightness is by far more excellent than the image of Daniel....Hebrews 1:3
[3] Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

He sets Spirit over flesh.
Christ over Adam.
The express image of God which is the Son is set over the “excellent” “bright” “terrible” image in Daniel. And even if you hate it...Peace is set over wrath...The ministration of the righteousness of Christ set over the ministration of condemnation. Love over hate. Life set over death. That which doesn’t perish over that which does perish.

 

[ScottA]

I believe I referred to it in post #(89). I recognize we today are the temple of God and are living stones making up that temple. I do not see that as the third temple built in Jerusalem where the abomination of desolation will be set up.

Stranger

Yes, I see that.

Yet these are not the times of building with stones, but the times of every stone being thrown down. Matthew 24:2

 

[Enoch111]

I am convinced the HS is everywhere since He does not have a physical body like Yeshua. So I am not sold on the idea that the HS returns to heaven, as it were.

I agree and we cannot be dogmatic about this. At the same time, we know that while the Holy Spirit is God and omnipresent, He was sent by the Father and the Son specifically on the day of Pentecost for the baptism with the Holy Ghost. This was the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. So in that sense, He MAY return to Heaven since the Church has been completed and taken up. Or He may simply move out of the way and allow Satan full control for 3 1/2 years.

 

[Copperhead]

I agree and we cannot be dogmatic about this. At the same time, we know that while the Holy Spirit is God and omnipresent, He was sent by the Father and the Son specifically on the day of Pentecost for the baptism with the Holy Ghost. This was the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. So in that sense, He MAY return to Heaven since the Church has been completed and taken up. Or He may simply move out of the way and allow Satan full control for 3 1/2 years.

So true, we can’t be dogmatic about this one. I am persuaded to think He sticks around as the 144,000 come into play as well as those who turn to the Lord and are martyrs. Not sure anyone can do that without the influence of the HS.

 

[Taken]

And this is where it gets real,The 5th seal martyrs know God's wrath hasn't begun yet and vs. 17 "is come" is in the present/future tense showing not that it has been happening but now AFTER the signs of the 6th seal, they recognize it is about to start.The wrath of the Lamb are the trumpet judgment and then in Rev. 7:14 we see the raptured church arriving in heaven after the seals and after the great trib which is satan's wrath upon the church, Rev. 12:17.

Now that you mention Seals and Wrath of the Lamb, they are Biblical.

Ok.

 

[Copperhead]

Revelation 6:17 “has come” is in the Greek aorist tense which is a past tense. Those on the earth are finally acknowledging what has been going on is the wrath of both / “their” the Lamb and YHWH.

One can’t establish a doctrine that because the literal word “wrath” hasn’t been stated up till V17 that what has been going on up to that point isn’t the wrath. I am sure that we would agree that the Flood of Noah’s time was the wrath of YHWH, but “wrath” was never used.

And none of the events of the seals would happen if Yeshua had not opened those seals.

 

[Stranger]

The house is Spiritual. 43 And the hooks, a handbreadth long, were fastened within round about: and upon the tables was the flesh of the oblation.

Why is it spiritual and not material?

Stranger

 

[historyb]

Narrow human judgement.

Glory to God,
Taken

No, I just don't accept your doctrine

 

[historyb]

These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

They were searching to disprove, not to prove. Just because I don't accept your doctrine does not mean I do not accept Scripture

 

[Stranger]

That is what I thought you would say. Every belief you hold tight to rest in one event...the rapture of the church. If the church isn’t raptured out...if the true living temple of God that host His presence is not removed then all rapture believers have a problem. When this new temple of God is built and the church is still here...which is God’s temple? The one made with the hands of man ...or the One made without hands. Could show you the rapture is when one is snatched from out of the Fire. No longer consumed. When one is snatched ‘seized’ as no longer of God’s wrath. Could give you scripture to support it even with the word harpazo used in the definition of the passages. But why when you’ll refuse to even consider God created the children in Christ to “endure” all things for His good purpose and plan...even being IN the Fire but not OF the Fire.




Of course it was good. Daniel 2:31
[31] Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.

Adam was also good but God removed Adam from His height over all things for the Son of God(Christ)to be exalted above all things. The image in Daniel rejected the Rock and like Adam it was cast down FOR whose brightness is by far more excellent than the image of Daniel....Hebrews 1:3
[3] Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

He sets Spirit over flesh.
Christ over Adam.
The express image of God which is the Son is set over the “excellent” “bright” “terrible” image in Daniel. And even if you hate it...Peace is set over wrath...The ministration of the righteousness of Christ set over the ministration of condemnation. Love over hate. Life set over death. That which doesn’t perish over that which does perish.

Because I believe the Rapture is taught in Scripture then it of course plays a role in helping define other events in Scripture. But, not everything I hold to rests on the Rapture.

I could just as easily say of you and others, because you can't explain certain things in Scripture, you must resort to 'spiritualization' interpretation. That way you can make it up any way you need to.

What does the Tabernacle and the Temple of Solomon have to do with the image in Daniel? What does Adam have to do with the comparison of spiritual and material?

Is your glorified body in Heaven going to be spiritual only? Or, will it be physical, of flesh?

Stranger