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Featured Where’s the rapture in the Bible?

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by theefaith, Aug 26, 2020.

  1. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    It has been 10+ months of the seals. It will get worse after Jesus starts His earthly ministry in the 6th seal.
     
  2. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    Disagree.

    Rev.1
    [1] ...Revelation of Jesus Christ...
    [2] ...record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ...

    Rev 6
    [16] ...wrath of the Lamb:

    Rev 12:
    [12] the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath...

    Rev 16
    [1] ...wrath of God


    I said no such thing. Comment Irrelevant-

    This is a public forum allowing space for short quips.
    I never indicated a short quip was the extent of The Great Tribulation.

    God was Angry in the OT- at men Professing to Do as He said...Then they Did Not.

    Men Continue to Cause God to Be Angry-
    And God IS NOT SILENT- that When His Anger is Directed AT ANY particular Individual-
    That Individual (less he be Ignorant), should Know EXACTLY How God Intends, to Deal With His Anger.
    Gods Anger Shall Be intense, and Shall be Revealed BY HIS intense WRATH.
    When Gods WRATH "waxes" (increases) HOT,
    None Shall Escape the Consequences.

    Leading up to: Gods First Great Tribulation...
    Men were WARNED...
    Most Scoffed...Partied...made fun of Faithful Noah.

    Leading up to: Gods Second and Last Great Tribulation...
    Men Are WARNED...
    Many scoff...Partying...make fun of the Faithful IN Christ, the Power of the Living God.

    No kidding. As I stressed, Tribulations caused OF Men are sporadic. Gods Tribulation Shall Effect the Whole Earth.

    No Seals, of the Book of 7 SEALS Have YET been Opened.
     
  3. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    The point is it could be a geological 1/4 and not a total body count. The verse doesn't make that distinction and it's possible it was translated wrong. You didn't say what version it was but many of the more modern versions translated by inserting their opinion of what it should mean rather than actual wording.
     
  4. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    People- are Earthly Body's and Gods Souls.
    Earthly Body's do Not go to Heaven.
    Saved souls go to Heaven!

    Rapture is Calling UP an Earthling...
    MADE WHOLE (body, soul, spirit) IN Christ...
    TO the Clouds...Not Heaven...as you have been told and shown IN Scripture.
     
  5. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    Have you not read the Luke 17 version of that?

    Luke 17:33-37
    33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

    34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
    35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

    KJV

    Matt 24:28
    28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

    KJV

    The real meaning of that first one taken idea our Lord Jesus spread out in His Word. It's apparent He did that so that only those who listen to Him in HIS WORD, and not to man, would understand. Amazing! That word "carcase" in the Matthew 24:28 version means exactly that, a dead corpse (Strong's no.4430). That drives home the real meaning of Luke 17:37.

    So the real meaning is the 1st ones taken are like a dead 'carcase' wheresoever the fake eagles are gathered, meaning the fowls eating on their dead corpse. That of course IS NOT about being gathered to Christ Jesus! It's just the opposite!

    And afterall, this is what Jesus is also pointing to in the above Luke 17:33 verse, that those who seek to SAVE their life will lose it. That is pointing to those who wish to be the 1st one taken, instead of those who stay in the field working.

    So I can see you smiling real big, ignorantly thinking your are preaching comfort to our brethren in Christ, but really brother, you are doing the opposite if you think those 1st ones taken are the saved.
     
  6. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    Pre- Trib-
    Mid- Trib-
    Post- Trib-

    Each HAS a PLACE in Scriptural Teaching.
    It Precisely is Dependant...
    On an Individual's "Standing"...
    With or Without- God
    With or Without- Lord God
    And WHEN...Pre Trib- or During Trib the Individual "Declares" his "Standing".

    * Understanding; OT
    God has Divided From the Beginning:
    Divided- Earth and Heaven
    Divided- Night and Day
    Divided- The Earth (dry land)
    Divided- The Nations
    Divided- People- Tribes- Jews- Gentiles
    Division- Those WITH "God"- From those WITHOUT "God". .
    **Division-
    **Those "WITH" God, Lifted Up, Above Water.
    ..............(8/ Noah)
    **Those "WITHOUT" Destroyed.

    * Understanding; NT
    Jesus Continued DIVISION (Luke 12:51)
    Jesus' Division among men (John 7:43)
    Jesus' Division- Those WITH the "Lord God"- From those WITHOUT the "Lord God".
    ** Division-
    ** pre-Trib
    Those "WITH" Lord God, Lifted up.
    WHOLE, body, soul, spirit, TO Clouds.
    .............1 Thes 4: 16-17
    ** mid-Trib
    Those "having Come to the Lord God"...
    (During the Trib)
    BODY Killed, Body remains ON Earth.
    "Soul" rises Up, To Heaven.
    ...............Rev 7:14
    ...............Rev 6:11 (more souls 2 B saved)
    ** post- Trib
    Those "having Later come to the Lord God"
    (During Trib) Saved Souls Raised UP to Heaven, Body's Killed.
    After 1,000 years...Rest of "IN the Lord God",
    "Dead Body's" Raised up To Living.

    Utter Destruction- during Judgement For those Who Chose TO "Stand Against" God, and The Lord God.

    Judgement ...
    Final "Separation of The Divided"...
    " Without the Lord God " Separated FROM
    the Lord God...
    and
    the people WITH the Lord God
    and
    The Face of the Earth.

    Glory to God,
    His WAY is Perfect,
    Taken
     
  7. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    "...in the twinkling of an eye." ;)
     
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  8. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    So if you are going by geography then 6 billion could die. God could only qualify the land where most population was. Human population centers take up less geography.
     
  9. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Active Member

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    Would you please in a shortened version show us all the fulfilment of every seal you think has been opend? and teh approx. date when the seal was open?
    Thanks
     
  10. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    I really can't follow that very well. But I will say that yes, bodies do not come out of the grave. That did happen at Christ's death, but that resurrection was a purely temporal resurrection--those people had to die again!

    The spirits of the departed saints are with God in heaven. Their bodies have been reduced to the elements, and are irretrievably mixed into the material world, sometimes reused by new bodies. The old bodies are forever gone.

    The "rising" of their bodies from the dead is, I think, figurative language indicating that the spirits of the dead are given new bodies, which in effect causes their old physical beings to live again on earth. Same spirits, and new glorified bodies.
     
  11. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    Brother, I've been studying this since the early 70s! I know these views upside down and forwards! ;) Lest you think I'm totally jaded in my views, I'll tell you that I was indoctrinated in Pretrib through the church I initially chose as a young adult. I had no bias against it whatsoever. And the church I presently attend is committed to the Pretrib position. So it's not a hostile issue to me. But I am very motivated, if anybody is willing to discuss it amicably.

    I've read several times Pretrib authors admit they have no explicit doctrinal statement defending Pretrib. They instead claim it is a "mystery" revealed to Paul that we also should receive by "revelation," ie in mysterious fashion. That is hardly "explicit doctrinal support!" Sadly, these same people falsely claim that the Postrib position likewise lacks explicit biblical doctrine, which I believe is untrue.

    Not at all. Both the Olivet Discourse and 2 Thes 2 explicitly teach Postrib. And the coming of the Son of Man in NT doctrine originates from the coming of the Son of Man in Dan 7, which is Postrib in context. The Son of Man comes to bring God's Kingdom after the destruction of the Little Horn, aka the Antichrist.

    How so?

    Church Doctrine was never lost, once established as Christian Orthodoxy by the Church Fathers. But reform and revival both became necessary, as Christian Civilization wandered, and true Christianity emerged within the Christian States. Pretrib was not "revived"--it never existed. It was never taught in the Early Church, though there was claim that it existed marginally in some quarters, without any lasting legacy.

    We do need to straighten out the Postrib/Pretrib debate! I'd like to return to historic Postrib Doctrine, which will be needed during these times of Christian apostasy and Antichristian sentiment.

    If there is explicit doctrine in support of Postrib, it is *impossible* that Pretrib fit all passages!

    You're conflating Postrib Doctrine with Covenant Theology People.

    It's easy to predict something that hasn't happened yet. I don't believe the temple will be built, though I could be wrong. But as a Postrib I do agree with Darby that Israel maintains its promises from God. That's something that's right about Dispensationalism, although I don't believe the entire system is correct in all ways.

    Not at all. Dispensationalists don't own Futurism. That kind of eschatology has been around since the Early Church, and the Early Church was *not* Pretrib!
     
  12. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    I have a different interpretation of the Great Trib--it is the NT Jewish Diaspora, and at the end of the age trouble coming upon the whole world. But a good pastor friend of mine is Pre-Wrath, and I'm supportive of that position--not much different from Postrib. That's not a difference worth fighting over! ;)

    Thanks brother.
     
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  13. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    The seals have been centered around the Corona virus and the disruption of work. There is no time frame. The judgments started 3.5 years prior to April 2023AD. There will be no Antichrist until after that date. Satan will be exposed in the 6th seal. The 5th seal is the first half of the rapture. The only noticeable seal as a judgment will be the fourth seal. The 6th seal is not judgment. The earth and heavens will be changed. All left on earth will know and be afraid. This will signal the end of the church on the earth.

    Why do modern prophets downplay this virus? The church today has lost a great deal in this event. Does the church even notice what is happening? It is not about laboring in the field, as much as waking up and realizing God is at work. When did the members in the pew stop winning lost souls? It was not this year. But those who have been faithful will remain faithful.
     
  14. Keraz

    Keraz Well-Known Member

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    What will He do for us, we who bear His Name?
    The Prophesies of Ezra:


    2 Esdras 3:17-22 Lord, You rescued Jacob’s descendants from Egypt and led them to Mt Sinai. There You made the heavens bow down and by Your glory, gave the Commandments to the Israelites. But You did not take away their evil hearts and thus enable Your Law to bear fruit in them. For as Adam sinned, so all his offspring are inveterate sinners and the good of the Law came to nothing.

    2 Esdras 4:23-37 Why has Israel been scattered among the nations? Why are Your people, those whom You love, living in the godless nations? Why has the Law of our fathers and our Covenant with You, been discarded? Our lives are short, are we even worthy of Your pity? What will He do for us, we who bear His Name?

    [those who bear His Name; are every faithful Christian, the Lord’s people. John 15:16]


    Those who are living at the end of the age will see and marvel. This present age is full of sorrow and weakness, people are unable to grasp what is promised in due time for His godly people. Until the full crop of evil has been reaped and the ground on which it was sown has been cleansed, there will be no room for the place where the good will be sown. Terrible will be the harvest, one seed of evil has produced a great crop of godlessness!


    But when? How long must we wait? The reply: Do not be in a hurry for yourselves alone, the Most High is concerned for the many. The same question is asked by the righteous in the storehouse of the souls: How long must we stay here? [Revelation 6:10-11] As soon as the tally of those like yourselves is complete. The Lord has measured and numbered the ages, He will alter nothing, the appointed time must be reached.

    2 Esdras 6:17-28 The time draws near when I shall come to judge the earth’s inhabitants, a time when I shall enquire into the wickedness of the wrongdoers and the time when Zion’s humiliation will be over. All will see this judgement at the same moment – a loud trumpet blast will strike terror into all who hear it. Whoever is left after all that will be saved and will see the salvation that I bring. Wickedness will be blotted out, but faithfulness will flourish and truth will be revealed.

    2 Esdras 9:1-12 Watch carefully, when you see earthquakes, insurrections, unstable governments and panic among the leaders, then you will understand that the time is near for the Most High to begin to judge the world. The times determined by the Most High are marked; the beginning by portents and miracles, the end by manifestations of power. All who come safely through, thanks to their good deeds or the faith they have shown, will survive the dangers I have foretold and will witness the salvation I shall bring to My Land, the special area set apart for eternity as My own. Isaiah 35, Ezekiel 34:1-16, Romans 9:24-26

    Then those who have neglected My ways, will be taken by surprise, their contempt for their Maker will bring them to destruction. All who disdained My Laws while freedom was still theirs, who scornfully dismissed the idea of penitence while the way was still open, all these must learn the truth through torments after death. The just will be saved, the world is theirs and for their sake it exists. Reference: REB Apocrypha. Some verses condensed.
     
  15. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    PHILIPPIANS 3:20
    New International Version
    But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,
    New Living Translation
    But we are citizens of heaven, where the Lord Jesus Christ lives. And we are eagerly waiting for him to return as our Savior.
    English Standard Version
    But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
    Berean Study Bible
    But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,
    Berean Literal Bible
    For our citizenship exists in the heavens, from whence also we are awaiting a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
    New American Standard Bible
    For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;
    New King James Version
    For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
    King James Bible
    For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
    Christian Standard Bible
    but our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly wait for a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Contemporary English Version
    But we are citizens of heaven and are eagerly waiting for our Savior to come from there. Our Lord Jesus Christ
     
  16. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    Disagree- impart.

    Humans do not "Receive", a "Different" Body.
    Their "same body" is "raised".

    * Some Body's Shall be "raised" changed...
    From mortal to immortal, (which means, once raised, that Body can never Again Die.)

    * Some Body's Shall be "raised" unchanged...
    Still mortal, (which means still subject to death).
    Here...requires "understanding DEATH", in the Spiritual Understanding.

    Death- in common understanding, means no longer Alive..

    Death- in Spiritual Understanding, (whether or not a body, soul, spirit- IS Alive- ) it is separated From (NOT WITH), the Lord God.

    A Human body's Life is its Blood.
    BLOOD is Never "returned" to a "raised Dead Body".

    A dead Body is "Raised", by the Power of God, RETURNING a "Living soul" To the Body.

    Those IN Christ- Bodily Raised, IN Glory, are Raised in "their own Same Body", (that IS MADE perfected). No Blood, No Diseases, No deformities, no heartache memories, depression, etc.
    Their saved Living soul....AND Born Again spirit, IS "imparted INTO", their Same, but Perfected Body.

    Those Physically Dead Body's (NOT) IN Christ, (are those WHO Knew of Christ Jesus.../while Alive in their Flesh/...and "Chose" TO REJECT Christ Jesus.)

    (And there IS an "Exception" to THAT ^ for the Jews/Tribes of Israel).

    Regarding "Gentile's"...(not having the "Exception"),
    They who chose to Reject Christ Jesus...
    Shall be Bodily Raised, (in their own body, as it was when they Physically Died), by the Power of God, Returning their Living soul to their Body.
    They stand before the Judge, Become Judged (according to the Evidence.
    The Evidence is Whether their Their Name Appears in the Lambs Book of Life or Not).
    If Not-
    The LIFE in their soul, returns TO God.
    Their Body and soul...IS Then Life-less.
    Their Body and soul...IS then DESTROYED.
    (Burned, IN Hell. The "the remaining ASH", is NOT ever spread on the Earth's Surface, to be under foot of the New Earth)

    ISRAEL- (Tribes), Have an "Exception", as mentioned....Because God "intentionally"...
    BLINDED them from Accepting Christ Jesus.
    (Temporarily)
    The Purpose was Expressly to Give Gentile's, Opportunity to Become Believers, IN the Lord God.
    The Temporary...BLINDNESS, is Removed During the Tribulation...and ISRAEL becomes Saved Then, (during the Trib).

    Same Body (it) is raised-

    1 Cor 15:
    [42] So also is the resurrection of the dead. "It" (Body) is sown in corruption; "it" (Body) is raised in incorruption:
    [43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
    [44] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

    Israel Temporarily Blinded-

    Romans 11:
    [25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this "mystery", lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that "blindness" in part is happened "to Israel", "until" the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    Glory to God,
    Taken
     
  17. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    @Nancy The point is to be ready, right? by God's grace...
     
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  18. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Paul says changed. Not made better.

    When you change clothes you do not put the same ones back on. At least not immediately. Nor do you stand naked waiting for them to be cleaned. That is not changing clothes. That is just waiting for the same clothes. There is a big difference in change and waiting for the old. Paul did not say we will wait for the end to get the same old flesh. Nor did he say the old flesh can go to heaven period. Paul claims an incorruptible body, a change, a new body, immediately with the Lord at physical death.
     
  19. Bobby Jo

    Bobby Jo Well-Known Member

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    Pretty funny! -- Ummmmmmmmmmmmm, you missed Verse 28, which gives the context of what is ACTUALLY happening to the "two in the field"; and Lke 17 even paints a more accurate picture:

    Lke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
    35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

    And so the one who is "taken" simply DROPS DEAD, and the "eagles" feast on that dead body, -- which presumably is a person who had accepted the Mark of the Beast and will NOT ENTER the Millennial Kingdom.


    Funny indeed! :)
    Bobby Jo
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2020
  20. Bobby Jo

    Bobby Jo Well-Known Member

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    That's what my wife says when I'm doing something she disagrees with, and she warns me: -- Jesus could come at any moment, if you don't knock it off ...

    ... and so I stop what I'm doing. But we WILL (or at least SHOULD) know when Jesus will Return, at it isn't at "any time", but a KNOWN time -- down to the WEEK.

    1 Thess. 5:2 For you yourselves know well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 When people say, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as travail comes upon a woman with child, and there will be no escape. 4 But you are not in darkness, brethren, for that day to surprise you like a thief.


    But of course the "rapture" isn't until the END of the Millennial Kingdom when Jesus ascends to the New Jerusalem with HIS church, to be with the LORD forever in the air.

    Bobby Jo
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2020
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