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Featured Where’s the rapture in the Bible?

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by theefaith, Aug 26, 2020.

  1. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    That's the thing Tim, there is no such thing as a seven year tribulation. It's not scriptural. There is no scripture that says any part of Daniel's 70th week is tribulation. The only times the word is used in Rev. is within the context of the seven churches and when it shows the raptured church arriving in heaven (Rev. 7:9). There is the great trib which is satan's wrath against the church (Matt. 24: 21-22, Rev. 12:17), the judgment of the Lamb (trumpets) and the judgment of God (bowls), culminating w/ Armageddon.
     
  2. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Well if you want to nit-pick you can say 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation and 3 1/2 years of the Great Tribulation. But to claim that it is not even scriptural is total nonsense.

    THE TRIBULATION (FOR JEWS)
    And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Dan 12:1)

    THE GREAT TRIBULATION
    For then shall be [The] Great Tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    (Mt 24:21)

    THE CORRESPONDING TIME PERIOD

    Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

    2300 days/360 = 6.39 years or 6.4 years = 6 years and 5 months
    That is short of seven years by seven months. During those 7 months Christ prophesied of the following cosmic events:
    Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (Mt 24:29)
     
  3. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Did Jesus leave fighting a battle?

    The battle of Armageddon is the fight between Satan and Christ. It is not the Second Coming. The Second Coming happened prior to Satan's 42 months.

    Jesus Christ returns and finishes what He started. Then Satan is allowed 42 months. This is an interruption. It is not a stage act setting up the Second Coming.

    This stage act makes it look like the church is fighting by itself. Why would the church after fighting for 1990 years, suddenly have to fight Satan physically?
     
  4. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Satan is not fighting the church. You are mixing up the church with the fig tree. Satan may be angry, but only Israel is left on earth.

    Why would Christ come back and minister the trumpets and thunders and leave the church on the earth during Satan's 42 months? The church is not going to play the harlot during the 42 months, just after being presented to God by Christ as whole and complete. Where is that found in Scripture?

    It is not 7 years. Jesus in Matthew says it is shortened. 3.5 years have been taken away. Except Satan gets 3.5 years. Are those being taken away as well? Jesus is still going to be here during the Trumpets and Thunders.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2020
  5. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    Do we agreee that there in a final seven yr. period? Yes, however nothing in scripture implies a division of 2 halves. Yes, the time period of 3 1/2 yrs. is given but it is man that says it MUST be one half and another half because it makes a pretty mathematical picture. Is there a great trib? Sure, but it's not the latter half of the 70th week but a short term event in the early stages of the 70th week. a time of trouble says nothing to describe an amount of time. The 2300 days should give one a clue that the normal division of time (3 1/2 + 3 1/2) regarding this period is in error. Matt. 24:29 should also give a clue because they are the signs of the 6th seal and at that time the majority of the 70th week has yet to begin.
     
  6. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    Rev. 12 and 13 are not consequential, they are a pause to go into more detail regarding events that have already happened or are about to. Rev. 12 differentiates between the woman that goes into hiding (144,000 + of Israel) and the "remnant of her seed which keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ". (the church) The concept that Christ takes away a prophesied amount of time is something pre-tribs had to come up with as is the division of time within the 70th week. Christ is warning the church that it's coming and while it is in the context of the 70th week, it occurs in the first half and it is relatively a short amount of time.
     
  7. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

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    I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

    The Lord is going to descend, at the seventh trump [the last trump]. Why will the dead in Christ rise first? Because they are already there, and with Him. All we have to do now is go to the book of Revelation, and find out in detail when this will be. We find out what events will occur just prior to this seventh trump sounding, and then when we see these certain events taking place before our eyes, we will know our Lord will return to earth next. Then the trump will sound, and the gathering will take place, and we will be changed from our flesh bodies to our spiritual bodies. And not one day before.

    Many people have images of massive numbers of people flying away, with all sorts of accidents taking place; however, the Bible doesn't tell us it will be in that manner. In Revelation 11, it tells us exactly three and a half days prior what will happen, and the whole world will know about it, for it is no hidden mystery. That is when the Antichrist will end his reign by killing God's two witnesses, and send the world into a three and a half day party of celebration.

    In Revelation 11 the world will know the two witnesses, for the disruption they have caused, and the world will watch as they are killed, and their dead bodies are put on display in a wide street [arena]. Are you still looking for a rapture, well my friend, at the end of the three and half day period it will be a time of great shame for you, For as Revelation 9:4 points out, the truth will not be sealed in your mind, and God is going to turn you over to Antichrist. The "rapture theory", could be the death warrant of your very soul, or a commitment of your soul to great shame. If you believe in the "Rapture theory" you will be on the side of Antichrist, and will fly with anyone, because you just don't understand the Word of God.

    Remember, Two bodies will be in the streets of Jerusalem for three days, causing a world wide massive party...that is your warning just before Jesus Christ return to this earth. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

    I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

    Revelation 11:9; "And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves."

    They simple do not want these bodies to come alive, or claim life when they in fact are dead. The world is witness to the corps of the two bodies. And they will think of all the damage these two prophets did to their crops and property; and most of all, the insults the witnesses gave this first Christ {Antichrist}, whom they all believed to be Jesus. Antichrist did as their rapture theory promised it would do. They got their wing's all right, straight to Satan's camp.

    Revelation 11:10; "And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth."

    The torment the two gave the world was naming the Antichrist, Satan. This was unthinkable, for their traditions taught them otherwise.

    Revelation 11:11; "And after three and an half [days] the spirit [breath] of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them."

    Did you catch the time frame here? It's three and a half days following the death of two witnesses that the world will rejoice over their death.

    When the whole world celebrates, you better be getting ready to meet your maker. Friend, the only flying out of here is by the two witnesses, and it is recorded here. God's elect will be changed here at this time.

    Revelation 11:12; "And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them [two witnesses], Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them."

    There is no secret to this rapture, of two, for who are their enemies? Those who were against God's two witnesses.

    Revelation 11:13; "And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven."

    This is Satan, and his fallen angels [that locust army of Revelation 9] that were caste out with him.

    The remnent who gave God the glory, are God's elect, and those who are sealed of God, including the 144,000 of the tribes of Israel. Those are the ones chosen to stand against the Antichrist, and only them. The traditions of men will be preached right up to the seventh trump. What happens then at the seventh trump? Well, that is what First Thessalonians 4 is all about. "The gathering back to Christ at the seventh trumpet".

    Revelation 11:14-15; "The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly." [verse 14] "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The Kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever." [verse 15] THIS IS THE SEVENTH TRUMP.

    You, as a Christian now know exactly what is to transpire for three and a half days prior to the sounding of the seventh trump. You will see the murder of the two witnesses, observe the massive celebration, and then be changed to another form before Christ returns to this earth. It's all in God's holy plan, and Paul, John, Peter, Mark, Luke as well as Jesus certainly do not want you ignorant of these facts.

    There is no FLY AWAY, no dodging of the tribulation of the Antichrist and his system's deceptions, but Christ will come and establish His kingdom on earth, and you will see it in your spiritual body. Got it?

    Now what about the clouds, and the air? The "clouds" are in reference to a large gathering of people, as Paul used else where also. While the "air" spoken of here, in the Greek is "breath of life"; we will meet Jesus Christ in our "breath of life bodies, or spiritual bodies". That is the mystery Paul spoke of in I Corinthians 15:50-54.
     
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  8. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Not true. People somehow manage to confuse "the last trump" (for the saints) with the seventh trumpet (for the wicked and ungodly). Those are two different trumpets blown for different reasons. The first is for salvation, the second is for damnation. BIG DIFFERENCE.
     
  9. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Not true. They are both sequential and consequential. Satan and his evil angels being cast down to earth allows the reign of the Antichrist to begin and to succeed.
     
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  10. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    Yep ^ True Scripture.

    You start with an False Fact and build off that False Fact to arrive at a False Conclusion.

    The Trump of God...Voice of the Archangel
    IS NOT The SEVENTH or LAST Trump.

    Pay attention TO the wording of the Facts Revealed.

    1 Thes 4: 16
    WHO- The Lord
    WHAT- Descends
    WHERE- from Heaven TO Clouds
    SIGNAL- TRUMP of God
    SOUND- Voice of Archangel
    WHO- dead IN Christ
    WHO- Alive IN Christ
    WHAT- Bodily Rise Up
    WHERE- To Clouds
    WHY- TO Meet Their Lord
    WHY-
    * Prepared for Marriage Union
    * Not subject to Wrath
    (Wrath of Lamb/Wrath of devil/Wrath of God)
    * WHY NOT?
    (Already, Crucified: and MADE Whole, Body, soul, spirit. Sanctified, set apart, justified to Be Redeemend)
    * IMMEDIATE Marriage- NO
    * * MORE people ON Earth- To Become Saved & Quickened, During "Phases of Tribulation"...
    (Wrath of Lamb/Partical Wrath of Devil)
    are "To be Invited" (Spiritual Quickened ) Guests and participants in the Spiritual Wedding Feast...
    (The Guests "out of the Tribulation:"
    -Become Bodily Dead- Remain ON Earth
    -Souls Saved Go to Heaven-Worship God
    -Quickened Spirits- attend Wedding/Feast.)

    The Phases of the Tribulation, in Brief:
    * SEALS - Wrath of Lamb
    * TRUMPS- Signals of mixture of Wraths/ Devil and God.
    * VIALS- Gods Great Wrath POURED out ON Remaing World and Inhabitants Expressly Against God.
    * Gods CUP- Poured out ON inhabitants-
    -WHO-
    *) Encouraged, promoted others to Reject God
    *) Persecuted Believers IN The Lord God


    * Signals Sounded BY the SEVEN Holy Angels
    * Are NOT signals TO People!
    * Are Signals Between Angel's!
    * Are Signals For Angel's of WHEN to Releace Gods Wrath.
    * ARE "Voice OF One Angel"... TO the other Angels.
    * The Voice of ONE Angel to the Other Angels is for them TO Sound Their TRUMPS, that The other Angels KNOW "When and What" things are occurring. ( it is a communication Notice between Angels).
    Men are simply Notified, prophetically, of HOW Gods servants (Angel's), will be Conducting Gods PLAN to Overcome, Defeat Destroy and have Victory Over Evil and Death.

    There shall also be Spiritual Warfair- between Holy and Fallen Angels...that Human men are Foretold, but Will not See.

    It is ... After Victory...the "RETURN" - (which you confused with the Lords DESCENT, and Trump of God, and Voice of Archangel)...

    The RETURN...is EXPRESSLY- is the "RETURNING" of; what was "SENT".

    •WHAT was Sent: The Word of God
    •WHAT did men SEE: the Likeness of a Man
    •WHAT was He Called: Jesus, Son of Man, Without Sin, He shall save men through His Word.
    ••WHAT was the FORE-Knowledge, that men were GIVEN...but Could NOT SEE?
    *** He "Shall be" called the Son of God
    *** He "Shall be" with Power
    ***He "Shall be Known" as Gods Christ Messiah
    ***He "Shall Teach"
    ***He "Shall Exalt the Heavenly Father God"
    ***His "Death Shall be sought"
    ***He "Shall Be Bodily Killed"
    *** He "Shall rise from Bodily Death"
    *** He "Shall Offer" Forgiveness to men, salvation of men's souls, Quickening of men's spirits, crucifixion of men with Him, Promise to Keep and Redeem men UNTO Him Forever.

    *** Promise TO RETURN TO Earth...and RAISE UP ALL Bodies OF MEN (IN Faithfulness...IN uncorruptible Bodies)...
    • WHO have Ever Physically Died, for Having Faithfulness TO God, (OT & Present adhering Tribes of ISRAEL), Having lived since The "Son of Man" first came to Earth, (NT & forward), Faithfulness IN God, IN Christ...Even during The Trib, (after "those" in Christ were Spiritually dead IN Christ and already Redeemed, Having Served with The Lord 1,000 years)...

    THEN at the LAST TRUMP...is the SIGNAL Given For...Who?
    • The Son of Man to "RETURN" to Earth.
    • And WHAT does the "Son of Man" RETURN ...
    WITH, that WAS NOT With Him, the First Time He Came TO Earth?
    ...
    • Thousands of His Saints.
    • The Full Power of God.
    ....And What IS the Full Power of God?
    • It IS the Power of God, we were Foretold, we have Called Him, but Could Not See.
    • The Full of POWER God...IS CHRIST.
    • we have been foretold, this Jesus Is The Christ and Christ IS the Power of God...
    And We have testimony of Some powers Jesus exampled to the eyes of Men...but we HAVE NOT witnessed, His Full Power to Instantly Defeat and Overcome, and have Victory Over Evil, To Destroy AND Renew the Entire Earth and Heavens.
    •••
    It is the "Son of Man" that was Sent to Earth.
    ( Not the Christ With Power)
    (- less you think little baby Jesus, began his mission on his first day...instead of 30 yrs later)
    It is the Son of Man with Power and Saints, that Shall Return to Earth.
    (NOT The Lord TO the Clouds)
    It is the Son of Man, that every inhabitant upon and under the Earth SHALL SEE.
    (NOT those Converted Meeting their Lord IN the Clouds)
    It is The LAST Trump that Signals The Son of Man's Return.
    (Between Angels to Angels)
    It is The LAST Trump of the Voice of the Seventh Angel (NOT an Archangels voice )

    If you do not WHO is doing What, and WHY, and WHO is involved and WHO is not, and WHY... you will always result in a faulty Conclusion.

    The Lord God Almighty IS: thee ONE God, that the Trinity attempts to explain, via the terms:
    Lord- Son
    God- Father
    Almighty-Power


    It is The Knowledge Revealed in Scripture:
    Of The Umpteen Names and Titles...Expressly
    Applicable To the Lord God Almighty...
    FOR WHEN and WHY.

    When a person ' does not KEEP ' the Scriptural Knowledge "Confined to Scriptural INTENT of When and Why"...the Understanding Becomes multiple men's, Hodge Podge of opinions, philosophies, mindful logic and personal interpretations...
    And obviously WELL Known...Disagreements.

    The Truth is All Revealed IN Scriptural Text.
    It requires more than skimming, but rather a Diligent Effort to KEEP the Precise Names and Titles Relevant to Whom they Expressly Apply, When it is Prophecy Foretold, when the prophecy IS come to pass, What men CAN SEE or not, And Why.
    And Verify Everything you Hear....men with the best intentions are still fallible men.

    Glory to God,
    Taken
     
  11. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    The beginning of cp. 12 takes us back to Joseph's dream for identification of the woman purposes. The battle between Michael and the archangel is not described as occurring after the 7th trumpet. The A/C would have been around for a while, he doesn't arrive at the scene via 12:9, this when satan possesses the body of the man who was to become the a/c and has already been around for 3 1/2 yrs. or more, when he is wounded to death and resurrected. Cp. 13 is just giving us more detail about those that have been around since the 1st seal or earlier. The results of Rev. 13:7-10 are to be found with the 5th seal martyrs.
     
  12. 07-07-07

    07-07-07 Active Member

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    You come off as a scoffer and a mocker. In any event, the statement by Jesus could well mean that those who are left behind are left with the dead body (false doctrine) where the eagles of this world gather, i.e., the one world & one religion system, which is led by the anti-christ. The wise Virgins are taken home via the one-flight out, aka Rapture, as written in Matthew 25.

    Luke 17
    [34] I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
    [35] Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    [36] Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
     
  13. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
    Song of Solomon 2:3, Proverbs 5:19, Luke 1:67, etc
     
  14. michaelvpardo

    michaelvpardo Well-Known Member

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    I'm not familiar with the original languages, so I can't actually verify it to be true, but in the first version of scripture that I read, the King James version, when Jesus spoke of the tribulations that proceeded His return, the English word "travail" was used in the description. "Travail" was used to describe child bearing and implies birth pangs that increase in frequency and intensity as the time of birth approaches. I agree that the "end times" began with the resurrection of our Lord, but if the use of the word "travail" in the KJV was a proper translation , then the trials of the Earth are supposed to become more intense and come more frequently as the "day" approaches. In my limited experience of the world (64 years), this would seem to be true, but I suppose that could just be a matter of my perception (which has grown from my youth up to these days of gradually fading faculties.)
     
  15. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    It seems to me the emphasis is not on the tribulation aspect. It is just the "tribulation of those days". After the return, John gives us more specifics that there will be greater events, never witnessed before. So the return is not after the greatest events. The return happens after non descript tribulation. Then humans will know that the greatest judgments come from God, not just tribulation caused by humans themselves.
     
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  16. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Daniel is the book that "splits the week".
    In Matthew Jesus claims those days are shortened. Revelation claims Satan gets 42 months after Jesus is already on the earth with the 144K. Satan does not get the first 42 months and then the harvest. Satan gets the empty fields. Which means the last days church went apostate, and failed to win more souls, thus leaving Satan with millions of humanity to keep deceiving.
     
  17. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    Where in the world did that theory come from? Those that claim that Daniel splits the week into two equal divisions of 42 months. may be wrong. The word "midst" can mean divide in two or it can mean anything in the middle of day 2-2519.
     
  18. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    Of course, none... of that is what is actually written in The Word of God folks. Did you notice he didn't post any Scripture to back that up?
     
  19. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    The middle of 7 years or the middle of 7 days? If Jesus had 7 years, then 3.5 have been completed. Jesus was in the grave 3 days, no? How long was he dead on the Cross?
     
  20. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 14:3-4

    3 They were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living beings and the elders, and no one could learn the song except the 144,000 who have been ransomed from the world.
    4 These are the ones who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins; they follow the Lamb wherever he goes; they have been ransomed from among humanity as firstfruits for God and the Lamb;

    If they followed the Lamb wherever He goes and they were alive on earth, then that is where Jesus Christ the Lamb was. On the earth since they were sealed. How long? No one can know. When The Lamb comes in the sixth seal, no one knows the day or the hour. Read Revelation 6 and 7 and tell me these 144K are not male virgins.
     
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