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Featured Where’s the rapture in the Bible?

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by theefaith, Aug 26, 2020.

  1. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    Changing my clothes has nothing to do with Spiritual Inderstanding.

    A person receives a new "spirit", a new "body" ... NOT BY getting RID of the OLD, but by the CHANGES "MADE" to the OLD, to "MAKE" the OLD, have NEW attributes.

    Every human has a Natural spirit. It is NOT some ghostly thing floating around.
    A man's Natural "spirit", is simply his "Natural TRUTH" in his Heart...(regardless of the true / False/ deceptive things his MIND thinks up).

    The Baptism of the Holy Spirit Effects the "Natural spirit of man", Giving that man's "Natural spirit (a circumcision of his Heart)," cutting off his OLD Natural Truth About Spiritual things, and God planting His SEED, with His Spiritual Truth, bring to Life, a Man's Born "AGAIN" Spirit...with Gods "Spirit if "HIS" Truth.

    The Saving of the soul,is About "Restoration".
    Same soul, but Restored to its "Goodness", as it was when God Blew into a man's nostrils.

    The Same Body that A man is Naturally Born with, is the Same Body that shall be Raised...
    Changed, without Blood Life, disease, cells that replicate and die, deformities, a Mind with evil or wicked ideas or intents, sorrow over bad memories, loss of loved ones etc.

    Also the New Heavens and New Earth...are "NOT a destruction/ complete Riddence of the OLD.

    The Earth shall be destroyed...yet this is a world without end.

    Everything Changed, are changes, A man has never Seen or experienced...so for man, it shall be completely New...yet it is The OLD that always Was, we have not yet experience the complete New.

    Nothing new under the sun, but plenty we have not Yet seen.

    ...body's, do NOT "GO TO" Heaven.

    Currently there is a Division between Earth and Heaven. (Water).
    The DIVISION will be Opened. A Heaven on Earth scenario, that one can only imagine, 'till it come into fruition.
     
  2. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    As I said, it is impossible to preserve the "same body," because it returns to the elements, and is nothing but a changeable set of elements that can be used again in different bodies. Do you really believe that dead epidermis is going to be recovered by God for every person that has ever died? We shed skin every day, brother! The "same body" is an idea--not a material reality.

    There are 2 kinds of resurrections we speak of here.
    1) temporal resurrection, in which a person, like Lazarus is raised up in his corpse, essentially healed of death, only to die again later. Jesus was initially healed in his body after the cross, rising up in his old body. But his goal was the glorified body, which he had to go to heaven to receive from God.
    2) immortal resurrection, in which a person is given an *entirely new and different kind of body.* Paul said our glorified bodies will be different--not the same body.

    There is yet a 3rd kind of resurrection--the resurrection of the wicked, who continue to exist, but who do not enjoy the spiritual life of Christ which we call "eternal life." They experience "eternal death," which is an eternal separation from fellowship with God, even though they go on living. They also receive new bodies, but only to exist in a region separated from intimacy with God.
     
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  3. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    And ... yes NOW you shed skin.
    But you have never Seen an uncorruptable Body, to Know What YOUR changed Body Shall Look like, EXCEPT, it Shall be in the Likeness and Image of God.
    I'm leaning toward God does not HAVE Anything of His Body, ( like skin cells or any cells that Die off ...or that can in any fashion Become Dead, Break, bleed, Become diseased, etc.)

    I believe Jesus is our Supreme Example.
    I believe He Was Raised in the Body, Men could SEE...but Also Raised in His Spiritual Body...and the Point for Having...
    Earthly men Witnesses,
    AND
    Spirits OF (Bodily Dead) witnesses.

    Many men have Physically died...their soul departed, and Then God Reimparting their Soul, that their Physical LIFE Resumes...and that Body Still Subject TO Die.
    We have Scriptural evidence, as you particularly mention...
    And some today, obviously not recorded in Scripture, have been pronounced clinically Dead, then, miraculously, Resume Physical LIFE.
    All souls and the Breath of Life therein Belongs To God, that He may do with at His pleasure.

    The 3rd you mention, is something I have been studying for several months.
    It is certain the Wicked, do not receive a Born Again spirit- (which is what gives the Saved, eternal Life.)

    But there is that ONE element In Scripture About people Alive in their Flesh,
    Who go beyond...Disbelief.
    People who do not believe is one thing.
    (Their Body's and souls destroyed in Hell).
    But People WHO, go beyond;
    Advocate, Teach, Preach, Encourage Others to NOT Believe; Is most grievious to a Jealous God.
    Perhaps their Soul remains Living, (similar to) a Fallen angel (spirit), to suffer full knowledge of their separation From God Eternally.
    Haven't prayed about that Yet...more of a curiosity, then worry. I don't personally know anyone who advocates Disbelief, but do find in Scripture, Gods reaction to that is Fierce.

    BTW- I do not believe, a corrupt Body is Risen up to Heaven and "then" Changed.
    I believe they are Changed in the moment they are raised.

    Glory to God,
    Taken
     
  4. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Active Member

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    Well you are conflating teh return of Jesus with the Rapture. They are 2 separate events and the rapture is not a "coming" or return of Jesus!

    When you add it to the physical return of Jesus as an event that happens while Jesus is on his way down it is.

    Yes we go from corruptible to incorruptible in a moment, but you forget teh bema judgment that takes place in heaven for believers to have their wors (not their salvation ) judged.

    Why? Believers have undergone far far worse than what we have had to endure this past 2 centuries. These are signs of the times before the tribulation period of 7 years begins.

    Well it is sad you had such misinformed teachers!

    Let me give you a manuscript to ponder.

    http://www.arielcontent.org/dcs/pdf/mbs039m.pdf

    It is short and is part of an excellent textbook on Eschatology!

    Well John and Paul were and taught as such! What happened to their teachings after the first century is another matter.

    I have been to Israel. I can assure you , it will be built.

    Hebrew UNiversity has taught ritual sacrifice. They have made the tools, sewn the ephods, have the menorah and the table of shewbread, have blueprints as well. All it takes is for God to allow them. The book of REvelation and Thess. demand that another temple be built!

    Paul says because the man of sin (Antichrist) sits in the temple declaring himself to be God!
    John because God told him to measure the temple (it was destroyed by the time He wrote REv. ) and to leave the outer court- for it was given to trample on for 42 months (the 2nd half of the trib).

    also Israel can rebuild the temple and not even bother the dome of the rock. That is located in the court of the gentiles!

    True but that is (generally speaking) where the majority of post trib folks reside. Dispensationalists tend to be pre trib, though we do have a smattering of mid tribbers, post tribbers and thanks to Rosenthal pre wrath positions.

    That would be incorrect. You forget that doctrine is not established by the church, but by SCripture! The church (outside of teh Apostles as the foundation) is forbidden to promulgate any other doctrine other than what was given to the Apostles. Our job as believers is to preserve. protect and pass on the SCriptures without subjective commentary.

    I would beg to differ. All post trib studies I have read, without exception, have reinterpreted passages to justify post trib positions or lack simple understanding ot he epistlesd as written in the first century with a first century view of words and events.

    Well I am here! We can get intense and even heated, but I never enter into animosity. I am passionate in all my teaching.

    I have taught eschatology in churches, studies and Bible college for over 30 years, so I like you am very well versed in pre-trib.
     
  5. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Active Member

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    Well this is a new position added to teh thousands!

    But the first seal is a king going out to conquer? You say the seals began Oct. 2019. Where is the ruler going out to conquer?
    Or teh seal to take peace from teh earth?
    or the seal opened which produces global famine ? or the seal that ends up seeing 1/4 th of the human population killed?

    The Spanish flu was a far more pernicious virus in 1918. It killed over 25 million and produce far more devastation globally than the covid 19 has.
     
  6. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    or only a 100,000 could die while a geographical quarter of the earth is still experiencing all those things.
     
  7. Bobby Jo

    Bobby Jo Well-Known Member

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    Ummmmmmm, there are answers to your questions, but you won't get them from any source except Scripture. And you refuse Scripture, -- so good luck! :)

    We all choose ...
    Bobby Jo
     
  8. Bobby Jo

    Bobby Jo Well-Known Member

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    By my estimation, only some 15-20% of the earth's population will survive to enter the Millennial Kingdom. And most people think they'll be among the survivors -- as is true in any unit preparing for combat. But the REAL TEST of being able to survive is whether you've prepared yourself and your household for when you won't be able to buy or sell.


    And Lke 22:35-36 lays out the basis, but few heed. Thus few will survive.
    Bobby Jo
     
  9. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    Yes, always! In and out of season :)
     
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  10. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    @Nancy Indeed....
     
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  11. Keraz

    Keraz Well-Known Member

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    If you think we are going to live in heaven, then why do we eagerly await Jesus to come from there?
    There is nothing that says Jesus will come from heaven and take His people back there.

    What Paul was telling us that all who have been born again, have their names Written in the Book of Life. It is the Promise of Eternal Life, as per John 3:16
    Paul is NOT telling the Philippians and us that we will go to heaven at all.
     
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  12. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    I agree w/ prepping as much as possible however the church won't be here for the majority of the 70th week, but the great trib upon the church will kill millions of the still here church.
     
  13. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    Assertions don't count.

    Don't see the relevance.

    No relevance.

    Don't need to read it if what you've offered so far is any indication. The points I made came from authors whose stature is very high in the church. And you just dismiss it? You claim to know a lot, but you didn't even know that many Pretribbers admit their position is not spelled out, and is thought to be a "mystery" shown only to Paul. The material you feed on is weak, because you've given me zero support for Pretrib thus far.

    Assertion without proof. The proof that John and Paul were Postrib is that the Church ever since has been Postrib. Darby started Pretrib. When you suggest it was a position held in the Early Church you have zero evidence for it.

    I've been to Israel too. I didn't see a temple being built. And there still isn't one being built. Empty claims. What the Orthodox may want to do is not necessarily what will be. They lost their temple initially for rejecting Christ. Do you think they'll get it back while they still reject him?

    The tabernacle of Moses and the temple of Solomon were built with much fanfare. Where is the fanfare for the building of a new temple? The temple in which Antichrist will sit will hardly be an OT temple. That temple was destroyed forever, because Christ has assumed authority in the temple in heaven.

    The temple in Rev 11 is a purely symbolic temple, like the one Ezekiel saw.

    Not relevant to prove anything.

    It is not relevant that Covenant Theology adherents hold to the historic Postrib position. *All* Christians in history generally held to the postrib position, since that was pretty much the only position existing. All Reformers held to Postrib because they believed the Church was already seeing the beginnings of the Antichrist in the RCC.

    But you don't believe 2 Thes 2, where the Postrib view is explicitly taught!

    There's nothing "simple" about the Pretrib position. It's extremely convoluted because it fits things together illogically. How can you derive Pretrib from 2 Thes 2? But you do!

    Some change the "apostasy" into the "rapture!" Some make out the removal of what hinders the coming of Antichrist to be the Rapture of the Church. These things make no sense in the actual context. There is no way the "falling away" means the "Rapture," or that the withdrawal of an impediment suddenly shifts gears to focus on the Holy Spirit. But that's what you do!

    You can start by demonstrating what you've advertised--actual biblical doctrine that explicitly teaches Christ will return *before* the Reign of Antichrist, or even that there are 2 stages to Christ's 2nd Coming? You wont' be able to produce it because I know it doesn't exist.

    Sorry to sound so unfriendly in my approach, but I'd like to get your attention on this: You *don't have any Pretrib doctrine!*
     
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  14. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Active Member

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    So you believe timtofly and his hypothesis? Okay then.

    And you making the arrogant assumption I refuse Scripture just makes you a presumptious, misinformed empty cloud. Sorry.
     
  15. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Active Member

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    Not assertion, but fact!

    that is your problem to solve.

    Much relevance

    Well who are they? I did not see you credit these authors. It appears you wish not to learn anything of substance that may rock your boat.

    No I don't know of many pre-tribbers who are "high" in the church who cannot spell out their position. Now granted my extra biblical reading has gone way down, but the two great texts I rely on now (after having read over a dozen major works and dozens and dozens of minor works) are J.D. Pentecosts "Things to Come" and A.J. Fruchtenbaum "Foosteps of the Messiah.

    Other than fear I think you would relish the opportunity to rip apart a position. But so be it. Our convresation will not last long.

    See it is actually you that is asserting without proof. When you look at their writing with the first century understanding instead of corrupted 21st century understanding, you see them very much pre- trib. The big give away is the words they use and the promises to the church God gave them.

    Incorrect again. Pre-and post trib designations are a relatively knw name given to the rapture (which term did not appear until the 1500's)

    But the early church was very much pre trib. I fully admit a slow change took place. Post trib and Amil thought was rooted with Constantine legitimizing the church ands finally took hold with Augustine and then later on the Birth of teh Roman Catholic Church. So of course there was only on eposition. No one was allowed to hold a position other than what the church monarchy taught under penalty of punishment and/or death. The reformation brought Scripture and people being allowed to read the bible for themselves.

    Well I never advertised this for I don't believe this thought. I agree with you that this concpet doesn't exist. YOu are now confusing me with someone else.
     
  16. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    The virus was the army that multiplied. The first seal does not say a single human cloned himself trillions of times and attacked humans all over the earth. It says a conqueror like "a man moving rapidly on a horse". Except it moved on ships, airplanes, and from person to person. The 4 horses was a literated "sermon" with 4 unique points. Not literal horsemen on horses. Death riding a horse should have made that clear. Seal 5 and 6 happen at the same time. Then seal 7 is offset slightly from the rest.

    Last century was not the seals. It may have been Satan's false "seals" to deceive the church. Nothing happened in 2012, Satan's end of the world "scare". Not one "Messiah" has stepped forward!!
     
  17. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    How would that be considered a tribulation?
     
  18. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    How can you be changed if all you did was survive? At the battle of Armageddon all Adam's descendants will have physically died. No one left in their biological body from Adam. They will be souls in sheol, or they will be resurrected in Revelation 20, and judged and given incorruptible bodies that can never die. Not even the second death can touch them. The resurrection is after the battle of Armageddon. Not prior to the battle of Armageddon. Revelation 20 is the one and first resurrection. The GWT is not called the second resurrection. It is called the second death. All will die, some will be resurrected before the 1000 years. All the rest after the 1000 years. None of these resurrections have anything to do with the church. The church is changed physically at death, because Death does not happen to a believer. The soul gets a new body and goes to Paradise when leaving this body behind. That is the point of being changed, not getting your diaper changed in a sleeping nursery during Sunday morning service.
     
  19. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    Another assertion. My point is not to make cheap quips, but to show that your Pretrib "proofs" are not proofs at all. They are weak assertions.

    It likely wouldn't last long because the Pretrib Position has no leg to stand on. You should reconsider your position, rather than double down on something that is extra-biblical, or "read into" the Scriptures--a position that is not historically dignified.

    Not at all. Put quite simply, Pretrib reads "Imminency Doctrine" into the writings of the NT and of the Early Church. Believing in Christ's imminent appearing is assumed to be the same thing as Pretrib Doctrine. But it is not!

    The expectation of the Soon Coming of the Kingdom of God is relative and is intended to elicit immediate preparations. You do not wait to get saved a day before Christ returns! You get saved and live in righteousness every day.

    We are to be "prepared always," not expecting that "he could come today." Thinking "he could come today" is *never* said in Scriptures.

    So what you read back into the NT Scriptures and into the writings of the Early Church is a false "Imminency Doctrine"--not Pretrib Doctrine. There is *no* Pretrib Doctrine in the Bible whatsoever. It has to be "proven" by allegory, or through the use of symbolism.

    Designations and language used are unimportant, in this regard. When has the Church ever *not* been Postrib? Only after 1830 with the teaching of John N. Darby.

    No change at all. There never was Pretrib Doctrine! Or, if there was, it never took hold.

    The old "Constantine and State corruption" argument? ;) I guess Constantine is responsible for every heresy in history? And if he so powerfully "corrupted the Church," I suppose that makes all the writings of the Church Fathers corrupt as well, who followed after him?

    Actually, biblical commentators taught what they saw the Bible teach. Remember, Christians wrote their beliefs even before Constantine initiated a tradition of religious tolerance for Christianity. The State likely caused some dilution of Christian teaching, but certainly did not stamp out solid Christian doctrine!

    I'm not confused. You're advertising the fact Pretrib Doctrine existed. Where is it?
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2020
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  20. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    God's Word doesn't call the gathering to Christ a 'rapture'. That is a word pre-tribbers got from a Latin translation of Greek harpazo. The KJV Bible translates it as "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4.

    The Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture versions directly parallel Christ's gathering of the two groups in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. The first group Paul mentioned there are the 'asleep' saints that Jesus brings with Him (from heaven) when He descends to earth. The second group of saints are those still alive on earth when He comes, which are "caught up" to Him (and them) in the 'aer' (Greek, which means 'the breath'). Zechariah 14 then reveals His destination will be to the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, on earth. He ascended to Heaven from the Mount of Olives per Acts 1, and the two angels there said He will return in like manner as they saw Him ascend into the clouds.
     
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