Where did the Bible come from? - Shot out of a canon

[Papa Smurf]

The purpose of this topical thread is to discuss where the Bible came from. I invite others to share their knowledge on the subject.

Hello St. SteVen, the following is a recent (2018), well-done movie/documentary on this topic, with a well-known cast of theologians, pastors, apologists, historians and linguists. Here is both the trailer and the movie, both of which can be watched for free.

BTW, the cinematography is stunning, so be sure it to set the video playback to the highest quality possible (if it is not already set that way).

Enjoy

Trailer​

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Full Movie​

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God bless you!

--Papa Smurf

 

[Papa Smurf]

St. SteVen said:
I love my Pastor. But it does bother me when he asks everyone to grab their copy of "God's word" for the scripture reading.

Hello again St. SteVen, have you ever told him that it bothers you and why, and also asked him to explain why he uses the terminology? It might be interesting to find out

I do not believe that EVERY word in the Bible is "God's word". Evangelicals seem to have this idea that God wrote the Bible. That he picked up a pen and started writing and when he reached the last verse in Revelation he was done and that was the finished Bible. Therefore the Bible is "God's word". That is NOT what happened.

I'm sure that you're correct about that, but interestingly, I've never heard anyone make that claim before (that God sat down, with pen and paper in hand, and wrote the entire Bible Himself, that is), and I've known more than a few evangelicals in my 37+ years now as a believer.

Also (and just FYI), like your pastor, I regularly use the term "God's word" (as a synonym for the Bible, the Scriptures, the Holy Writ, etc.), even though I am certain that most of what has been written in the Bible (save the 10 Commandments) was written down for us by men, not by God Himself.

What is typically meant by the term "God's word"/the reason we call it that (in my experience anyway) is because ~we believe that the Bible says EXACTLY what He intended for it to say~ (in spite of the fact that most of the words in it were neither written nor spoken by Him directly to us, in this context anyway).

If the latter was actually true, that God Himself spoke/wrote everything in the Bible, then I suppose we would call it "God's words" instead, yes

So, I believe, along with both the Bible .. e.g. 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:20-21 cf Luke 1:67-70, and with the whole of the historic Christian church (IOW Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant), that the Holy Spirit "superintended" the writing of whole of the Bible/God's word, meaning that even though men wrote it down (in the common way that real authors do, not as secretaries taking dictation, for instance), it actually has a dual-authorship (as the movie that I posited for us above also points out for us, just FYI).

Still, it's the words of the Bible, not the human authors, that are inspired (or literally, "breathed out") by God, such that the words that these 40 or so human authors of the Bible wrote are binding upon our hearts and consciences. As Peter, for instance, said of Paul's Biblical writings,

2 Peter 3 (BSB)​

15 Consider also that our Lord’s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. ​

16 He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. ​

BTW, this means that the Apostles (and the other human authors) knew that what they were writing was Scripture, which also helps us know the difference between Holy Scripture/God's word and the other "scriptures/writings" of the day (even those "other writings" that were written by the human authors of the Bible themselves .. the Apostle Paul, for instance, wrote 4 letters to the Corinthian church, but only two of them have ever been considered to be part of the Holy Writ, and therefore binding upon our hearts and consciences). I suppose it should also be mentioned that to "distort" the meaning of the other non-Biblical scriptures/writings of the day would hardly result in the eventual "destruction" of the people who did so!

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf

1 Peter 1​

20 Know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, ​

21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men carried along by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. ​

.

 

[Jack]

What do you mean when you say that the Bible is, "the written Word of God"?
Did God write the Bible? Where did it come from?

Zondervan Publishers presents: Peter Enns: Five Views on Biblical Inerrancy

Do you know what "Textual Criticism" in Bible translation is?

/

You mean the Bible that you reject?

 

[marks]

It is possibly true - for so many people. It truly depends on whether the person seeking true clasps on to what has already been taught or has released the things taught and humbled himself (or herself) to rely on God to give conviction. I think the wall we face is in opening our hearts and minds to realizing that we may have been wrong for a very long time.

Personally, I'm of the mind that a great many people should be testing their subjective thoughts against objective Scripture - yes, The Holy Bible - to learn if they are in error.

But rather than recognize the error in their thinking, there can be the tendency to change or ignore or delegitimatize the Bible. It can be very hard for some to admit error!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Reading scripture (every day) first thing in the morning is the best for me. My brain is fresh and I am rested so I can open the Field Manual and look at the state of my soul every morning. It's like looking into a mirror to read it. I rad and think, hey that sounds like me. (Yikes) I need to repent this morning and ask forgiveness again. Then I can start the day clean and in the company of the Holy Spirit. It's the best way to start a day!

I'm no longer surprised by how often my morning readings will contain passages directly related to threads I'll read that day. Not to mention the rest of life!

I'm not a morning person, left to my own devices I'd just get up and get dressed and get to work. My wife and I have the habit of reading together each day, that helps tremendously!

Much love!

 

[marks]

I use it every day; BUT I do NOT worship it. (as some seem to)

Who worships it??

I think you just say that about those whose devotion you don't understand, or something like that.

I've heard this nonsense about idolizing the Bible for a long time, and as far as I am concerned, that's exactly what it is. Disparagement against those who love God's Word in truth.

Much love!

 

[marks]

What would Christian life be like without a bible?

Even more error than there is now, is my answer.

Much love!

 

[MA2444]

Who worships it??

I think you just say that about those whose devotion you don't understand, or something like that.

I've heard this nonsense about idolizing the Bible for a long time, and as far as I am concerned, that's exactly what it is. Disparagement against those who love God's Word in truth.

Much love!

Maybe he feels his conscience telling him that he should read more? (And he dont want to!)

That would explain it.

 

[Papa Smurf]

I do not believe that EVERY word in the Bible is "God's word".
In that same way that I do not believe in inerrancy.

Hello yet again St. SteVen, I wanted to say something about this as well. If the Bible is only "partially" God's word, then how do we know which parts of it are Divinely "inspired"/breathed out" by God Himself, and which parts of it, then, are nothing more than the men's musings about the Divine instead (this seems like something that is VERY important for us to know, especially when we consider what the Bible has to say about what the outcome will be for those who choose to distort what the Scriptures say)

Furthermore, if this is true (that only part of the Bible is inspired by God), then who decides what is and what is not from God Each person individually?

It seems (to me anyway) that if the Bible is not wholly God's word (or even if it is 'partially' God's word), then it should not (cannot) be considered to be anything more than men's best musings about the Divine, that it should not be considered to be more important to us than our pseudepigraphal and apocryphal writings are, and that it should not be considered to be binding upon our hearts and consciences).

Finally, if the Bible is not (wholly) God's word, then it cannot be our regula fidei (rule of faith), since we have no reason to trust and believe that anything that it says to us/promises us will ever come true, nor that following its precepts and commandments are either necessary or even good (because we do not know who made them).

Fortunately, I believe that we have MANY reasons to consider that the Bible truly is God's Divinely inspired/breathed word to us, and many of those reasons are discussed in the movie/documentary that I posited for us earlier in this thread, just FYI

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf

 

[The Learner]

not keeping up again

 

[St. SteVen]

Hello again St. SteVen, have you ever told him that it bothers you and why, and also asked him to explain why he uses the terminology? It might be interesting to find out

I was raised evangelical, so I'm no stranger to the term.
But now that I have a better understanding of where our Bible came from
such references bother me. I don't fuss or fume. And I am not surprised
or upset about it. Just me re-evaluating the religion I was raised with.

Thanks for sending the trailer and movie.
I made it through the first half hour of the movie.

]

 

[MA2444]

I'm no longer surprised by how often my morning readings will contain passages directly related to threads I'll read that day. Not to mention the rest of life!

I'm not a morning person, left to my own devices I'd just get up and get dressed and get to work. My wife and I have the habit of reading together each day, that helps tremendously!

Much love!

That happens to me all the time, lol.

I used to do that too. Except not read w my wife, she was catholic and we didnt see eye to eye. So I'd say prayers in the morning and ask for God to speak to me, then head out the door to work. I never gave Him a chance to speak to me! I'd rattle off my morning prayer, protect these ones, heal those ones, Speak to me Lord! Amen...and boom I'm out the door. I didnt even wait for an answer!

Eventually I got smart and began inviting the Lord to go to work with me. And I would talk to Him basically all day long between jobs. And then I got even smarter and invited Him into customers houses with me. (I had a problem on a job, lol and as soon as I asked him everything fell into place!

I dont remember how long this went on. A couple weeks? Months? But at some point I started hearing the Lord's still small voice and we'd have conversations all day long, lol.
There's a bigger story that goes along with that part but succinctly, I kept so focused upon the Lord that He couldnt resist for too long!

He even told me turn off the Radio! (I havent turned it on since!) So it was like He turned up the volume for me, and that helped a lot. To start it I had to become like a little child. So I did. Then He did! Now I can't not hear His voice! He even wakes me sometimes. But the biggest tip that I can pass along for someone who wants to learn to hear the still small voice of God, is to expect for Him to answer you. And stay focused on Him. Then give pause and listen after you speak to Him.

He told me that He talks to everyone all day long and hardly any hear Him. And I know it's not my voice and my imagination making thngs up, because He doesn't talk (or think) like I do. He has a different way of speaking and somehow always says just the right thing in the right way. (Except for those times that He tells me to do stuff that I dont want to do! Lol)
He has such a cool way of talking. like nobody else that I've ever seen!

Focus-Believe-Listen!

 

[St. SteVen]

Hello yet again St. SteVen, I wanted to say something about this as well. If the Bible is only "partially" God's word, how do we know which parts of it are Divinely "inspired"/breathed out" by God Himself, and which parts of it, then, are nothing more than the men's musings about the Divine instead (this is VERY important to know, especially when we consider what the Bible has to say about the outcome of those who distort what the Scriptures say, yes?)

That doesn't really bother me.
The inspired parts are obvious. The rest of it just needs to be there,
God can use anything to speak to us. Remember Jeremiah and the Potter's house? (chapter 18)
How many others passed by there that day and got nothing from God?

It seems (to me anyway) that if the Bible is not wholly God's word (or even if it is partially God's word), then it should not (cannot) be considered to be anything more than men's best musings about the Divine (neither should it be considered to be more important to us than our pseudepigraphal and apocryphal writings are, and it should not be considered to be binding upon our hearts and consciences).

I want to affix a large label on the front cover as the book title that reads:

This is what we think
happened here. (and why)

]

 

[MA2444]

I do not believe that EVERY word in the Bible is "God's word".
In that same way that I do not believe in inerrancy.

Being raised evangelical left much to be desired in terms of understanding where the Bible came from.
Evangelicals seem to have this idea that God wrote the Bible. That he picked up a pen and started writing
and when he reached the last verse in Revelation he was done and that was the finished Bible.
Therefore the Bible is "God's word".

That is NOT what happened.

In a way it is how it happened. Except God dictated the words to the human authors and they wrote it down word for word in the language that they got it in. In other words, The Lord came to them and said, write this in a book...just like He did several times in scripture. And those guys made scrolls in the same language so they are the inspired words of God.

And the stories and significance was astounding! SOmething every one should be able to read. Hey, idea, let's trnaslate it into English for those American Gentiles. And copies were translated into a lot of different languages. And yes, there were errors made because some words & ideas dont translate well, plus they was overdue on the deadline so wanted to hurry and complete it. Lol. So they do have errprs. And then us serious students come along wanting the truthful details, so it is upon us to become a Hebrew language student and learn about their culture & customs and so forth to be able to understand what the original authors were saying. And if you dont know these little things sometimes you miss stuff in scripture or misunderstand it. (So this is obviously the, study to show thyself approved thing for us--) so like for instance, in Matthew 24...Jesus changes the subject on them. Did you catch that or gloss over it? It was subtle phrase and since His Disciples were of that language and customs rolled right with it. But many of us miss it! I missed it for a long time.

Did you know that you can actually go online and read the actual scrolls? It was cool, but Blueletterbible.org is more conveinant for me. Lol.
So the translations are not entirely the word of God. But what you have in that error filled translation is the key to finding what we seek. We must simply become scholars of the Lord.

You know, I bet our education continues in heaven! So I figure if I study more here, then I might not be in the remedial class when I get to heaven, lol!

 

[MA2444]

2 Timothy 2:15
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth....KJV

It says dividing the word of Truth. What's that mean?

STRONGS G3718: orthotomeō

Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. to cut straight, to cut straight ways
   1. to proceed on straight paths, hold a straight course, equiv. to doing right
2. to make straight and smooth, to handle aright, to teach the truth directly and correctly

Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
ὀρθοτομέω orthotoméō, or-thot-om-eh'-o; from a compound of G3717 and the base of G5114, to make a straight cut, i.e. (figuratively) to dissect (expound) correctly (the divine message):—rightly divide./...BLB

 

[Papa Smurf]

........now that I have a better understanding of where our Bible came from such references bother me. I don't fuss or fume. And I am not surprised or upset about it. Just me re-evaluating the religion I was raised with.

I see! So, a quetion then, where do you believe that our Bible came from?

Thanks for sending the trailer and movie.
I made it through the first half hour of the movie.

You're welcome, of course. As far as the final hour goes, the format doesn't change, but new ideas and facts continue to be introduced and taught, so it is a worthwhile use of the 90 minutes that it takes to watch it, IMHO anyway (even if you don't agree with some of the points that are made).

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf

 

[Papa Smurf]

The inspired parts are obvious.

Are they

I'll bet that we could find 100 people who, like you, believe that only certain parts of the Bible are inspired, and that these parts, the "inspired" parts, that is, are "obvious". I'll also bet that we would be hard-pressed to find 2 or 3 among those 100 people who are even close to being in 100% agreement about which parts are "obviously" inspired and which parts are not

The rest of it just needs to be there.

That's an interesting thing to say. If you don't mind me asking, why do you believe that, that the musings of men 'about' God ~need~ to be included alongside the Divinely inspired words 'from' God

God can use anything to speak to us.

I suppose that's true, but He seems to stick to only a very few ways these days, and one clearly FAR above all others (see the graphic below)!

Perhaps it would behoove us to look at what the Lord Jesus did when He lived among us and taught us (especially in regard to the OT Scriptures on the one hand, and the Jews traditional beliefs on the other ... and what He said about the Scribes' and the Pharisees' teachings when they taught directly from the Scriptures ~vs~ when they taught from a different source, like tradition)?

I'll have to get back to you about that.

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf

​

 

[JohnD]

The Bible is the word of God. Jesus declared the word of God is truth (John 17:17).

2 Peter 1:20-21 indicates several things:

1. all inspiration (spoken or written) comes from the Holy Spirit
2. all scripture (having come by that process) is prophetic
3. scripture is to be interpreted by the Holy Spirit alone
4. not by man or human tradition

Not surprising since the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth who leads us into all truth (John 16:13).

This is where the word of God came from and how it came.

 

[JohnD]

The late Dr Chuck Missler did a fascinating study on the subject wherein he cited the
process of creating a hologram (a 3 dimensional image) which is only fully illuminated
when subjected to the same laser light it was created with.

Without that same laser light, the image is less detailed, less in focus, not 3 dimensional.

With the same laser light the image was created, one could see with great clarity the image
and could even see around objects in the image with such clarity.

The same Holy Spirit who wrote the Bible through the writing prophets is the only one who can
illuminate this word of God in such a way as to give perfect clarity and intended meaning.

• 2 Peter 1:20-21
• 1 John 4:1
• Acts 17:11
• Proverbs 25:2
• Deuteronomy 29:29
• Isaiah 28:9-13

 

[St. SteVen]

I see! So, a quetion then, where do you believe that our Bible came from?

In short, the Old Testament was already established 300-400 years before Jesus birth.
By the time of the Septuagint. (Greek OT) Are we to take these accounts as literal or figurative?

The Gospel writings were an oral tradition for decades before they were written down. (see writing dates)
Authorship is questionable. The synoptic Gospels were three copies of the same original with minor changes to each,
The Epistles were letters sent to the churches.

The New Testament was canonized in the 4th century AD.
The western/Latin-speaking Church of Rome collected and voted on what should be included. (good work actually)
They worked from manuscript copies, of copies, of copies, of copies... because the original autographs were gone.
The doctrinal bias of the western church was applied to the translation work.

In reference to the Gospels... (some perspective)
Imagine that the events of 9/11 were not recorded for 30 years after the events.
We would still have another six years before anything would be written down.
What effect do we suppose that would have on the telling of the events?
Would the quotes and details be accurate?

This is a rather long but incredibly detailed explanation article.
I learned a lot that I didn't previously know. It's from the Berean Patriot.

Majority Text vs. Critical Text vs. Textus Receptus – Textual Criticism 101​

Majority Text vs. Critical Text vs. Textus Receptus - Textual Criticism 101 - Berean Patriot

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