Where do people go when they die?

[Abaxvahl]

All people will go to God to be judged...? Even the ones who have never received the Life that Jesus brought? Why?

"The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous." Psalm 1:4-5

How shall they not stand though? Could it simply be that they are said not to stand because they fall when judged, as in they are condemned? But the righteous are said to stand because they are not condemned. There are at least two senses in which to take that passage, although it is a great Psalm which speaks of our Lord.

 

[amadeus]

I believe we need a whole lot more scripture friend.

Do you suppose that by the abundance of scripture someone who has his mind made up is going to change? I could provide a lengthy Bible study on this subject done many years ago and most people would never read it. Of those that did read it, if any conclusions were different that what was already in their mind would rarely be changed. So then I strive to listen to God and post according to where He is leading me. I delete quite a few of my own posts. Can you understand why?

You post many good and informative posts here, but I am fairly certain that many people on the forum do not read any or most of them. They in the manner of men have their own agendas, good or bad. It is not me deciding the goodness or the badness of them. God uses what He will to accomplish His own purposes. He even uses the word of unbelievers to work on the hearts of people in need...

If even one person receives something good from God through what you post, is it not then a worthwhile thing that you are doing here?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I think this is because of the universal effects of Christ defeating death, that all go to the Resurrection of Life or the Resurrection of Condemnation, and exist forever. But it is called the "second death" for they do not have the life of God within them as the saved do, and so are eternally dead in this way, but it is simply called eternal life for the saved for the life if God is within them and they eternally exist in this way.

Ah, Abax, I find that when I have to put something like second death in quotes, I’m missing some understanding. I think to die a second time after being resurrected is a real death a second time, never to be resurrected again. I don’t think it is an eternal existence because I think there is no eternal life apart from receiving Gods Spirit. I think if a man is thrown into the lake of fire, he is annihilated. Although satan seems to have an eternal existence, which I absolutely can’t explain, I do not think humans have it apart from Gods Spirit. It makes no sense to me that men are both born with eternal life in them AND they don’t have eternal life unless they are born again. That’s where my understanding is anyway.

 

[amadeus]

How shall they not stand though? Could it simply be that they are said not to stand because they fall when judged, as in they are condemned? But the righteous are said to stand because they are not condemned. There are at least two senses in which to take that passage, although it is a great Psalm which speaks of our Lord.

The following is something I wrote down more than 12 years ago. I may not myself agree with it on every point, but it does I believe some questions people ask on this subject... Maybe it will clarify something for you. I have not fully reviewed it recently myself:

I understand where you are coming from on this judgment of the wicked [John 5:29 & Acts 24:15], but what is the point of bringing people back when they have already condemned themselves and thereby also judged themselves by His Word. Their punishment is rendered in this natural life and/or by them having no future at all after this natural life is done.

And if those who died in their sins actually have a resurrection after they have died naturally, who or what is it that resurrects them since Jesus is the resurrection?

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:" John 11:25

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:17-18

Although Jesus is The Resurrection, His purpose is not condemn anyone. They are "condemned already" and remain so unless He saves them.

Perhaps the answer lies in the difference between those who have a resurrection and those who have a 'better resurrection?

"Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:" Heb 11:35

The question then would be: 'better' than what?

"There are threescore queens, and fourscore concubines, and virgins without number.

My dove, my undefiled is but one; she is the only one of her mother, she is the choice one of her that bare her. The daughters saw her, and blessed her; yea, the queens and the concubines, and they praised her." Song of Solomon 6:8-9

The 'virgins' are without number, but His Dove, His undefiled is but one.

They are 'virgins' in that that came to Christ without having been married to someone else and without having committed fornication outside of marriage, yet they are not 'undefiled'

Remember now the parable of the ten virgins? Five were foolish who took their lamps, but without oil. They lived a very good life in God's eyes, but something was lacking. When the Bridegroom came, they were not ready and the door was shut. They defiled themselves by not keeping a continuous prepared watch for Him.

This is where I go off on my own belief in there being a difference between the Church or Body of Christ, and the Bride of Christ. All of the ten virgins are part of the Body, but only the five wise virgins are part of the Bride.

The foolish one will make it to the wedding feast as guests, but not as the Bride.

After the Bridegroom comes and takes away His Bride then guests are gathered for the wedding:

"So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests." Matt 22:10

The guests include the queens, concubines and defiled virgins.

Some of them after arriving are found unfit even for the wedding feast:

"And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matt 22:11-13

The judgment of the 'unjust' spoken of in acts 24:15 would be those that make to the wedding feast but do have a wedding garment.

 

[bbyrd009]

this body is the vessel our souls traverse in

”life” and “soul” are the same root fwiw

@bbyrd009 is that a scripture you quoted?

all three of them, yes

 

[MatthewG]

Do you suppose that by the abundance of scripture someone who has his mind made up is going to change? I could provide a lengthy Bible study on this subject done many years ago and most people would never read it. Of those that did read it, if any conclusions were different that what was already in their mind would rarely be changed. So then I strive to listen to God and post according to where He is leading me. I delete quite a few of my own posts. Can you understand why?

You post many good and informative posts here, but I am fairly certain that many people on the forum do not read any or most of them. They in the manner of men have their own agendas, good or bad. It is not me deciding the goodness or the badness of them. God uses what He will to accomplish His own purposes. He even uses the word of unbelievers to work on the hearts of people in need...

If even one person receives something good from God through what you post, is it not then a worthwhile thing that you are doing here?

No if someone has their mind made up of what they are going to believe they may not move from their stance. Is it worth while shooting out in the dark of the world? Sure. From what has been taught to me in the recent years is what was commented back to Weber, with you and stunneds post around post 17-18.

Im done made up my mind and it won’t be changed. I’m open to change but considering all that has been learned and looking at the scripture probably not.

Not saying am the only one. But There aren’t many other people probably here that would tell you they believe Jesus came back to receive up his bride and that Satan and his demons have been defeated already, and that hell has given up its dead already and that the white throne judgment was made for them in the past.

You are correct when many people will not read long post. And my suggest is never believe me but believe what scriptures say but take them as a whole. And the end of Revelation 22 is something hardly ever offered up…

It’s often if most times looked over it talks about people going in to be with the Lord God Almighty and those without God outside the kingdom. It’s a reality at least to me and leave room for the possibility of doing something for God after this life.

I wanna still do something for God even if it going out into the dark wilderness to the Lost souls who are all enjoying their time in the dark for however long they desire to stay there. Wouldn’t you desire to help them to? That depends on you yourself and what you think Heaven is like. To it’s all spiritual.

 

[MatthewG]

”life” and “soul” are the same root fwiw

all three of them, yes

Alright thank you for sharing. You remind me of God breathing the spirit of life into Adam which formed his soul.


“Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made. This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, before any plant of the field was in the earth and before any herb of the field had grown. For the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground; but a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground. And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:1-7‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[MatthewG]

I think this is because of the universal effects of Christ defeating death, that all go to the Resurrection of Life or the Resurrection of Condemnation, and exist forever. But it is called the "second death" for they do not have the life of God within them as the saved do, and so are eternally dead in this way, but it is simply called eternal life for the saved for the life if God is within them and they eternally exist in this way.

Also @stunnedbygrace

This is helpful.

Also is it helpful to question; if God created us; and he desired for us to be with Him; has God created away for things to pan out for his own will to be accomplished?

It’s seems to be the Paul is writing to Timothy in truth according to these verses.


“Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.”
‭‭I Timothy‬ ‭2:1-7‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[bbyrd009]

Im done made up my mind and it won’t be changed. I’m open to change but considering all that has been learned and looking at the scripture probably not.

you might contrast that position with What is it? at some point

 

[MatthewG]

. God uses what He will to accomplish His own purposes. He even uses the word of unbelievers to work on the hearts of people in need...

If even one person receives something good from God through what you post, is it not then a worthwhile thing that you are doing here?

This is my desire; this @amadeus is what keeps me from killing myself. The desire for God allow his purpose in my life to be accomplished no matter how slow or painful it can be, suffering for Christ for me to be alive is a benefit to others because of Christ with-in.

 

[MatthewG]

you might contrast that position with What is it? at some point

Would you please give me an example of what you mean ?

 

[bbyrd009]

Dumped out, or brought to life again to be judged?
I wonder often about how someone not born with the Spirit of God can be alive/aware after they die because that would mean men are born with eternal life in them, but I don’t think men are born with eternal life in them but only have eternal life in them after they are born again with Gods Spirit…

I think this is because of the universal effects of Christ defeating death, that all go to the Resurrection of Life or the Resurrection of Condemnation, and exist forever. But it is called the "second death" for they do not have the life of God within them as the saved do, and so are eternally dead in this way, but it is simply called eternal life for the saved for the life if God is within them and they eternally exist in this way.

eternal=“aion; a space of time, an age” so “forever” might not be the best understanding there…

 

[bbyrd009]

Would you please give me an example of what you mean ?

well, you might contrast your “i’ve made up my mind, and it wont be changed” position with that of a little child even, say

 

[Abaxvahl]

eternal=“aion; a space of time, an age” so “forever” might not be the best understanding there…

To my understanding depending on whether or not time is included in the age an "age" can be forever, for instance the "life of the age to come" that we receive in the Resurrection of Glory is without end, but it is called an age. But St. Paul refers to ages which have ended with the same word. So it depends on context whether or not it is forever or only a space of time. We know the Resurrection life referred to in Matthew 25 and other passages never ends and death is no more and we are incorruptible and unable to suffer then, so the contrary in those passages I also take to be forever or unending.

Another example being the doxology used when praying the Psalms, "glory be to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, until the ages of ages" or "age without end." Clearly God's glory and praise will never cease so this refers to an unending thing, and God had glory before the creation of time so it is truly from forever to forever.

 

[bbyrd009]

To my understanding depending on whether or not time is included in the age an "age" can be forever, for instance the "life of the age to come" that we receive in the Resurrection of Glory is without end, but it is called an age. But St. Paul refers to ages which have ended with the same word. So it depends on context whether or not it is forever or only a space of time. We know the Resurrection life referred to in Matthew 25 and other passages never ends and death is no more and we are incorruptible and unable to suffer then, so the contrary in those passages I also take to be forever or unending.

Another example being the doxology used when praying the Psalms, "glory be to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, until the ages of ages" or "age without end." Clearly God's glory and praise will never cease so this refers to an unending thing, and God had glory before the creation of time so it is truly from forever to forever.

Yah’s “eternity” would be different from ours, i imagine, ya…
There is only One Immortal, Who dwells in unapproachable light

 

[Abaxvahl]

Yah’s “eternity” would be different from ours, i imagine, ya…
There is only One Immortal, Who dwells in unapproachable light

Indeed and it can not other wise be. For He has eternal life intrinsically but we have it conferred on us by His gracious will, He always had it and always was and is, but we came to be in time. Therefore an infinite difference is seen between His eternity and our eternity.

 

[MatthewG]

@bbyrd009 Guess I’ll state it like this if anyone disagrees with me that is fine. If you believe something totally different that is fine. Never to believe me but ask of God and seek Him over all things and see what He has to say to you.

There three positions I believe

One is Annihilation - God will destroy all of His own Creations because God can do what He wants. Or the scripture indicates annihilationism. - My question why would God do something like this? God can’t go against his nature, character or His own will.

One is Universalism - Everyone is saved with or without faith and go into the Kingdom of God - Doesn’t matter if you have faith or not everyone who dies goes straight to heaven to be with God - My question Does the Bible really say this? No it says without faith it is impossible to please God so how are those without faith going into the kingdom?

The third position is reconciliation : that all people after this life go to God to be judged. God judges rightly, fairly; justly in consideration of all of ones life.

In this view to me considering God is just and fair : God sets apart those with faith and those without faith who pass from this life once coming into the judgment. I believe that God according to scriptures allows those who had faith to go be in the heavenly Jerusalem, where those without faith who desired nothing to do with God even after Been given the truth are outside of the kingdom of God in the dark but the gates of the city are not closed off. Because God still desires for people whether on earth or in the heavenly realms to still come to Himself and learn of the truth of the Son.

Hope that this a helpful way to contrast some different views.

There may be some others not touched on May soul sleep and waiting on Jesus to return to capture the bride and take them up and then all people come out of hades and are judged and what not (I believe all these things happened and I live by faith that they have).

Thank you for your time reading and consideration,

Matthew G.

 

[amadeus]

No if someone has their mind made up of what they are going to believe they may not move from their stance. Is it worth while shooting out in the dark of the world? Sure. From what has been taught to me in the recent years is what was commented back to Weber, with you and stunneds post around post 17-18.

Im done made up my mind and it won’t be changed. I’m open to change but considering all that has been learned and looking at the scripture probably not.

Every believer believes certain things and in doing so believes he is right. That does not mean that they should not also have open minds and open hearts to receive that really comes from God that would change something they considered unchangeable:

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts" Prov. 21:2

But then we are being led, or should be, right? If God leads us to a place opposed to our firm position, should we challenge Him?

"And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common." Acts 10:11-15

Not saying am the only one. But There aren’t many other people probably here that would tell you they believe Jesus came back to receive up his bride and that Satan and his demons have been defeated already, and that hell has given up its dead already and that the white throne judgment was made for them in the past.

You are correct when many people will not read long post. And my suggest is never believe me but believe what scriptures say but take them as a whole. And the end of Revelation 22 is something hardly ever offered up…

"Something hardly ever offered up" is perhaps true in many places and among many ministers of the God, but my old pastor [age 96] is not one of them. Since he first became my pastor back in 2007, Revelation 22 was place he frequently went.

Even now when I meet with him for Bible discussion and prayer each Wednesday morning, no matter where else in scripture we may be, it is not uncommon for him to go to Revelation 22 one more time. He is there almost as often as in I Corinthians 13.

It’s often if most times looked over it talks about people going in to be with the Lord God Almighty and those without God outside the kingdom. It’s a reality at least to me and leave room for the possibility of doing something for God after this life.

The after this life you mean I think is... after all of the dead things which produce nothing Alive are taken away out of us.

That is supposed to be happening now!

If we are always looking toward tomorrow and how good is all going to be, we will be neglecting today which is where we are and where assigned tasks are to be performed. Without a successful today there may indeed for us be no tomorrow with God.
*************
It also speaks of a pure river and of the tree of life and of the fruit of the tree and of the leaves that heal. These things are brought together here, but each one is mentioned or discussed or exemplified in many places in the scriptures, both OT and NT.

I wanna still do something for God even if it going out into the dark wilderness to the Lost souls who are all enjoying their time in the dark for however long they desire to stay there. Wouldn’t you desire to help them to? That depends on you yourself and what you think Heaven is like. To it’s all spiritual.

Yes, I do love when I love the opportunities for me to be used of God to fill a hungry and thirsty heart with some of what God has given to me for that purpose.

Not everyone has hungry and thirsty heart. Too many I see appear to have at least one foot firmly entrenched in the attractions of the flesh. Look around even on this supposedly Christian forum to see how much interest there are in things which have little or nothing to do with God.

There is in me also such an attraction and so each day, I must seek Him again and yet again so I am hungry and I am thirsty for His righteousness when the world is making some of its offers...

 

[bbyrd009]

One is Annihilation - God will destroy all of His own Creations because God can do what He wants. Or the scripture indicates annihilationism. - My question why would God do something like this? God can’t go against his nature, character or His own will

a fairly valid argument might be that we create our own “ego” all by ourselves?
Remember when you looked in a mirror and did not recognize your “self?”

One is Universalism - Everyone is saved with or without faith and go into the Kingdom of God - Doesn’t matter if you have faith or not everyone who dies goes straight to heaven to be with God - My question Does the Bible really say this? No it says without faith it is impossible to please God so how are those without faith going into the kingdom?

via a broader definition of the word “faith,” would be my guess? The Centurion ( a “pagan” supposedly) passage is surely about this, although i confess to not being clear on all the elements in that passage yet

The third position is reconciliation : that all people after this life go to God to be judged. God judges rightly, fairly; justly in consideration of all of ones life.

Yah judges no one, but has given all judgement to the Son though right

In this view to me considering God is just and fair : God sets apart those with faith and those without faith who pass from this life once coming into the judgment. I believe that God according to scriptures allows those who had faith to go be in the heavenly Jerusalem, where those without faith who desired nothing to do with God even after Been given the truth are outside of the kingdom of God in the dark but the gates of the city are not closed off. Because God still desires for people whether on earth or in the heavenly realms to still come to Himself and learn of the truth of the Son

we are basically committed to the “afterlife” notion propagated by the cult of sol now, but i suggest that the Bible has a better idea

 

[bbyrd009]

Indeed and it can not other wise be. For He has eternal life intrinsically but we have it conferred on us by His gracious will, He always had it and always was and is, but we came to be in time. Therefore an infinite difference is seen between His eternity and our eternity.

ha well The kingdom of heaven is within you eh