Where do people go when they die?

[amadeus]

This is my desire; this @amadeus is what keeps me from killing myself...

I have never seriously considered killing myself, but when I have been alone with little or no encouragement from people I have hoped that God would bring it all to an end for me here allowing me to die rather than continue as I was.

I have now a very good marriage, but when my wife was going through some her worst illnesses I was effectively all alone without even her to lean on... She has always been there for me except when she was so very sick and sometimes close to physical death.

God kept me in those hard times even though I was much farther away from Him than I needed to be and at the time failed to really appreciate Him. God, however, understood my weakness and kept me in any case because, for one reason anyway, He knew that He had more for me to do...

Death comes to us all... but in God's time, not our own:

"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
A time to be born, and a time to die... " Ecc 3:1-2

Consider how low Job had sunk here:

"After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day.
And Job spake, and said,
Let the day perish wherein I was born, and the night in which it was said, There is a man child conceived.
Let that day be darkness; let not God regard it from above, neither let the light shine upon it.
Let darkness and the shadow of death stain it; let a cloud dwell upon it; let the blackness of the day terrify it." Job 3:1-5

But, give God the glory, because He is here and He is Light even when we cannot seem to see a thing!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

@bbyrd009 Guess I’ll state it like this if anyone disagrees with me that is fine. If you believe something totally different that is fine. Never to believe me but ask of God and seek Him over all things and see what He has to say to you.

There three positions I believe

One is Annihilation - God will destroy all of His own Creations because God can do what He wants. Or the scripture indicates annihilationism. - My question why would God do something like this? God can’t go against his nature, character or His own will.

One is Universalism - Everyone is saved with or without faith and go into the Kingdom of God - Doesn’t matter if you have faith or not everyone who dies goes straight to heaven to be with God - My question Does the Bible really say this? No it says without faith it is impossible to please God so how are those without faith going into the kingdom?

The third position is reconciliation : that all people after this life go to God to be judged. God judges rightly, fairly; justly in consideration of all of ones life.

In this view to me considering God is just and fair : God sets apart those with faith and those without faith who pass from this life once coming into the judgment. I believe that God according to scriptures allows those who had faith to go be in the heavenly Jerusalem, where those without faith who desired nothing to do with God even after Been given the truth are outside of the kingdom of God in the dark but the gates of the city are not closed off. Because God still desires for people whether on earth or in the heavenly realms to still come to Himself and learn of the truth of the Son.

Hope that this a helpful way to contrast some different views.

There may be some others not touched on May soul sleep and waiting on Jesus to return to capture the bride and take them up and then all people come out of hades and are judged and what not (I believe all these things happened and I live by faith that they have).

Thank you for your time reading and consideration,

Matthew G.

Something to consider too, is that Jesus told some religious men that it would go better for sodom on the day of judgement than it would for them. If the lake of fire is the end fate of both of them, and the lake of fire is eternal torment, how is it better for sodom if both men are in the same exact torment?

Then also, is the outer darkness the same place as the lake of fire? Could annihilation in the lake of fire be more merciful than the outer darkness which, according to some verses, seems to be forever?
Because it has to be answered - how is it better for sodom than for religious hypocrites? If both are in the same place and same state, how has it gone better for sodom….?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Men think there are two fates and places. But there were 4 directions men could go from the garden and four rivers flowing in different directions. One of those rivers dries up according to prophecy, which would actually still leave 3.

 

[marks]

To my understanding depending on whether or not time is included in the age an "age" can be forever, for instance the "life of the age to come" that we receive in the Resurrection of Glory is without end, but it is called an age. But St. Paul refers to ages which have ended with the same word. So it depends on context whether or not it is forever or only a space of time. We know the Resurrection life referred to in Matthew 25 and other passages never ends and death is no more and we are incorruptible and unable to suffer then, so the contrary in those passages I also take to be forever or unending.

Another example being the doxology used when praying the Psalms, "glory be to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, until the ages of ages" or "age without end." Clearly God's glory and praise will never cease so this refers to an unending thing, and God had glory before the creation of time so it is truly from forever to forever.

This is my understanding also.

The ages of the ages, this is the "portion of time which includes the portions of time". The epoch of epochs. It's forever.

Much love!

 

[amadeus]

Ah, Abax, I find that when I have to put something like second death in quotes, I’m missing some understanding. I think to die a second time after being resurrected is a real death a second time, never to be resurrected again. I don’t think it is an eternal existence because I think there is no eternal life apart from receiving Gods Spirit. I think if a man is thrown into the lake of fire, he is annihilated. Although satan seems to have an eternal existence, which I absolutely can’t explain, I do not think humans have it apart from Gods Spirit. It makes no sense to me that men are both born with eternal life in them AND they don’t have eternal life unless they are born again. That’s where my understanding is anyway.

Oh Oh! Another one with annihilationist thoughts! Hmmm?

You do realize and that some people will criticize us and even condemn us for believing anyone might be annihilated instead being made to suffer pain with no end ever?

 

[marks]

I think this is because of the universal effects of Christ defeating death, that all go to the Resurrection of Life or the Resurrection of Condemnation, and exist forever. But it is called the "second death" for they do not have the life of God within them as the saved do, and so are eternally dead in this way, but it is simply called eternal life for the saved for the life if God is within them and they eternally exist in this way.

It was one of the Targum, Jonathan, if I remember correctly, which expressed that the worm in Isaiah 66 was what remained of the man whom God has destroyed.

Isaiah 66:24 KJV
And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Which shed a new light for me in Psalm 22,

Psalms 22:6 KJV
But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Oh Oh! Another one with annihilationist thoughts! Hmmm?

You do realize and that some people will criticize us and even condemn us for believing anyone might be annihilated instead being made to suffer pain with no end ever?

oh yah, I’m okay with being railed at, lol.
But what’s really scary to me is that there seems to be a fate WORSE than the second death. I’m hopeful that maybe the outer darkness is done away with after the millennium but…I probably have to collect the verses again and see if I can glean more. It seems to me it’s forever. Which would make sodom having it go better for them on that day make sense.

 

[amadeus]

you might contrast that position with What is it? at some point

Would you please give me an example of what you mean ?

well, you might contrast your “i’ve made up my mind, and it wont be changed” position with that of a little child even, say

Consider what the children of Israel asked here:

"And when the children of Israel saw it, they said one to another, It is manna: for they wist not what it was. And Moses said unto them, This is the bread which the LORD hath given you to eat." Exodus 16:15

m Man (mawn); Noun Masculine, Strong #: 4478

1. manna
   1. the bread from Heaven that fed the Israelites for 40 years of wilderness wanderings
   2. means 'What is it?'

"As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever." John 6:57-58

mavnna Manna (man'-nah);
Word Origin: Hebrew, Noun Neuter, Strong #: 3131

manna = "what is it"

1. the food that nourished the Israelites for forty years in the wilderness
2. of the manna was kept in the ark of the covenant
3. symbolically, that which is kept in the heavenly temple for the food of angels and the blessed

What is it? Indeed so!

 

[MatthewG]

Every believer believes certain things and in doing so believes he is right. That does not mean that they should not also have open minds and open hearts to receive that really comes from God that would change something they considered unchangeable:

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts" Prov. 21:2

Yes you are right. I’m open; however when it comes to this specific belief; it is extremely personal to me. It’s something hidden deep within my heart. Though if I am wrong; I won’t question God; all I know it is faith in Jesus that has made right with God and my desire is to love all people. Faithful or faithless.

Why else would Jesus have any reason to dine with sinners?

But then we are being led, or should be, right? If God leads us to a place opposed to our firm position, should we challenge Him?

Who God? Can not challenge Him you can find His will in the Bible which explains that He desire none to perish, and the he desires for people to come to the knowledge of the truth? If all shall confess Jesus is Lord how can one do that without the Holy Spirit? How can one do so in heaven if they are not a believer already? Does the unbeliever out in darkness come to know truth? How? Maybe by us who are bears of Christ light go out and at least try to help the ones in darkness…

It really does depend on the persons heart and what they believe God truly desires and he by far incomprehensible.

"And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common." Acts 10:11-15

"Something hardly ever offered up" is perhaps true in many places and among many ministers of the God, but my old pastor [age 96] is not one of them. Since he first became my pastor back in 2007, Revelation 22 was place he frequently went.

Even now when I meet with him for Bible discussion and prayer each Wednesday morning, no matter where else in scripture we may be, it is not uncommon for him to go to Revelation 22 one more time. He is there almost as often as in I Corinthians 13.

Why would he bring this up?

You ever realize at funerals no one is going to hell, the person already went to God. Did they go to be destroyed? What purpose does that for the family even if the whole family is unbelievers.

Imagine hearing this a funeral service

We don’t know if they went to God or was destroyed by God. The person is dead and gone, mourn and remember the good times you had with them.

The after this life you mean I think is... after all of the dead things which produce nothing Alive are taken away out of us.

That is supposed to be happening now!

If we are always looking toward tomorrow and how good is all going to be, we will be neglecting today which is where we are and where assigned tasks are to be performed. Without a successful today there may indeed for us be no tomorrow with God.
*************

I don’t understand why you said this exactly.

It also speaks of a pure river and of the tree of life and of the fruit of the tree and of the leaves that heal. These things are brought together here, but each one is mentioned or discussed or exemplified in many places in the scriptures, both OT and NT.

Doesn’t it also mention overcoming things too.

Yes, I do love when I love the opportunities for me to be used of God to fill a hungry and thirsty heart with some of what God has given to me for that purpose.

Not everyone has hungry and thirsty heart. Too many I see appear to have at least one foot firmly entrenched in the attractions of the flesh. Look around even on this supposedly Christian forum to see how much interest there are in things which have little or nothing to do with God.

There is in me also such an attraction and so each day, I must seek Him again and yet again so I am hungry and I am thirsty for His righteousness when the world is making some of its offers...

Thank you for your comment.

 

[MatthewG]

Something to consider too, is that Jesus told some religious men that it would go better for sodom on the day of judgement than it would for them. If the lake of fire is the fate of both of them, and the lake of fire is eternal torment, how is it better for sodom if both men are in the same exact torment?

Then also, is the outer darkness the same place as the lake of fire? Could annihilation in the lake of fire be more merciful than the outer darkness which, according to some verses, seems to be forever?

Because it has to be answered - how is it better for sodom than for religious hypocrites? If both are in the same place and same state, how has it gone better for sodom….?

thank you for your thoughts and insights though am not sure really what to consider here.

if you have a choice and you decide you don’t want nothing to do with God how long will that age of defying God last? As long as the person desired for it to last? Would the age end if the persons said ; maybe it was really God I needed in my life. Wouldn’t the age of defying God and new living for God age begin or start?

 

[MatthewG]

Whatever you guys decide to believe it is up to you.

Love you all and thankful for your comments.

You are all brothers and sisters in Christ and it doesn’t seem light fighting ensued am thankful for that.

God bless you and your families.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

thank you for your thoughts and insights though am not sure really what to consider here.

if you have a choice and you decide you don’t want nothing to do with God how long will that age of defying God last? As long as the person desired for it to last? Would the age end if the persons said ; maybe it was really God I needed in my life. Wouldn’t the age of defying God and new living for God age begin or start?

Lol, well maybe just ignore my last post then.

 

[MatthewG]

Fair enough friend @stunnedbygrace

I do hope you all have a good day it is nice outside went for a walk earlier it is pretty warm and you can see the fall leaves finally taking their place on the ground. Got out and mowed a little bit and thinking about going to church service Sunday maybe.

Not sure what you all may be up to but stay safe out here.

 

[Abaxvahl]

Ah, Abax, I find that when I have to put something like second death in quotes, I’m missing some understanding. I think to die a second time after being resurrected is a real death a second time, never to be resurrected again. I don’t think it is an eternal existence because I think there is no eternal life apart from receiving Gods Spirit. I think if a man is thrown into the lake of fire, he is annihilated. Although satan seems to have an eternal existence, which I absolutely can’t explain, I do not think humans have it apart from Gods Spirit. It makes no sense to me that men are both born with eternal life in them AND they don’t have eternal life unless they are born again. That’s where my understanding is anyway.

The key to me is in defining what death is. Very commonly death is used in modern context to be a cessation of existence, but this is not the definition I am used to in a Christian context. Death to me is simply the separation of the soul and body, in other words, a sort of disintegration of the whole human person into a ruinous state, but it can be put back together which is Resurrection. Sort of like how destroying a sand castle does not bring the sand that it was made out of into non-existence, it just destroys the form of the sand castle. The second death therefore is post-Resurrection and we know that those in the Resurrection all bodies will be incorruptible ("sown a natural body, raised an incorruptible"), so they can no longer disintegrate like that anymore. The only thing remaining is suffering then, described as "weeping and gnashing of teeth," and I think it is called death because it is a ruinous state.

But in either case death in the Scriptures never refers to non-existence, but more to corruption and disintegration. I do not think even one thing once made is ever brought into non-existence/annihilation, not even a dog, and not a single blade of grass. But things die when the life leaves them and they break down, the life (soul/anima mean same thing here) is an ordering principle in a thing holding it together, which is why when the soul leaves a body the body decays and breaks apart.

There is also some sense in which they lose their being and so become "less and less" in who and what they are, but that is a mystery to me and beyond my knowledge.

 

[amadeus]

oh yah, I’m okay with being railed at, lol.
But what’s really scary to me is that there seems to be a fate WORSE than the second death. I’m hopeful that maybe the outer darkness is done away with after the millennium but…I probably have to collect the verses again and see if I can glean more. It seems to me it’s forever. Which would make sodom having it go better for them on that day make sense.

Yes, our friend @Episkopos amplified that a bit, didn't he? While the way he put it was new to me, I still don't pursue directly more knowledge about it. When I reading the scripture or simply talking with God sometimes I see something though.

By keeping always first what Jesus told us to put first, how much will our lack of knowledge of all the details matter?

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." Matt 6:33-34

 

[Abaxvahl]

The following is something I wrote down more than 12 years ago. I may not myself agree with it on every point, but it does I believe some questions people ask on this subject... Maybe it will clarify something for you. I have not fully reviewed it recently myself:

I understand where you are coming from on this judgment of the wicked [John 5:29 & Acts 24:15], but what is the point of bringing people back when they have already condemned themselves and thereby also judged themselves by His Word. Their punishment is rendered in this natural life and/or by them having no future at all after this natural life is done.

And if those who died in their sins actually have a resurrection after they have died naturally, who or what is it that resurrects them since Jesus is the resurrection?

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:" John 11:25

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:17-18

Although Jesus is The Resurrection, His purpose is not condemn anyone. They are "condemned already" and remain so unless He saves them.

Perhaps the answer lies in the difference between those who have a resurrection and those who have a 'better resurrection?

"Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:" Heb 11:35

The question then would be: 'better' than what?

"There are threescore queens, and fourscore concubines, and virgins without number.

My dove, my undefiled is but one; she is the only one of her mother, she is the choice one of her that bare her. The daughters saw her, and blessed her; yea, the queens and the concubines, and they praised her." Song of Solomon 6:8-9

The 'virgins' are without number, but His Dove, His undefiled is but one.

They are 'virgins' in that that came to Christ without having been married to someone else and without having committed fornication outside of marriage, yet they are not 'undefiled'

Remember now the parable of the ten virgins? Five were foolish who took their lamps, but without oil. They lived a very good life in God's eyes, but something was lacking. When the Bridegroom came, they were not ready and the door was shut. They defiled themselves by not keeping a continuous prepared watch for Him.

This is where I go off on my own belief in there being a difference between the Church or Body of Christ, and the Bride of Christ. All of the ten virgins are part of the Body, but only the five wise virgins are part of the Bride.

The foolish one will make it to the wedding feast as guests, but not as the Bride.

After the Bridegroom comes and takes away His Bride then guests are gathered for the wedding:

"So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests." Matt 22:10

The guests include the queens, concubines and defiled virgins.

Some of them after arriving are found unfit even for the wedding feast:

"And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matt 22:11-13

The judgment of the 'unjust' spoken of in acts 24:15 would be those that make to the wedding feast but do have a wedding garment.

This is an amazing study that I will meditate on and use, thank you Amadeus.

 

[amigo de christo]

oh yah, I’m okay with being railed at, lol.
But what’s really scary to me is that there seems to be a fate WORSE than the second death. I’m hopeful that maybe the outer darkness is done away with after the millennium but…I probably have to collect the verses again and see if I can glean more. It seems to me it’s forever. Which would make sodom having it go better for them on that day make sense.

There are some things we will just not know in this life . But one THING I DO KNOW .
THANK GOD FOR HIS MERCY and GRACE GIVEN US IN JESUS CHRIST . SO as we wont ever have to find out what those places are like at all .
ITS WHY i have such a dire urgency to get folks pointed to JESUS and by that i mean the BIBLICAL ONE .
Cause in the end if a soul ends up in hell fire etc , that is what we all earned . BUT THANK GOD FOR CHRIST JESUS is all I CAN SAY .
Cause i wont be getting WHAT I DESERVE . WHich would have been the worst damantion known to man .
LET THE LORD BE PRAISED IS ALL I CAN SAY . LET US LEARN JESUS WELL . Learn our bibles well and test all things anyone does teach or say .

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The key to me is in defining what death is. Very commonly death is used in modern context to be a cessation of existence, but this is not the definition I am used to in a Christian context. Death to me is simply the separation of the soul and body, in other words, a sort of disintegration of the whole human person into a ruinous state, but it can be put back together which is Resurrection. Sort of like how destroying a sand castle does not bring the sand that it was made out of into non-existence, it just destroys the form of the sand castle. The second death therefore is post-Resurrection and we know that those in the Resurrection all bodies will be incorruptible ("sown a natural body, raised an incorruptible"), so they can no longer disintegrate like that anymore. The only thing remaining is suffering then, described as "weeping and gnashing of teeth," and I think it is called death because it is a ruinous state.

But in either case death in the Scriptures never refers to non-existence, but more to corruption and disintegration. I do not think even one thing once made is ever brought into non-existence/annihilation, not even a dog, and not a single blade of grass. But things die when the life leaves them and they break down, the life (soul/anima mean same thing here) is an ordering principle in a thing holding it together, which is why when the soul leaves a body the body decays and breaks apart.

I have read that those in the first resurrection, the second death cannot harm them. But it says the rest of the dead are resurrected later and go to the second death.
It’s a lot to consider for sure.

 

[amigo de christo]

I have read that those in the first resurrection, the second death cannot harm them. But it says the rest of the dead are resurrected later and go to the second death.
It’s a lot to consider for sure.

Let us cling to JESUS and we shall never find out how harsh that place truly is .
Since we are on that note , i would just like to add one more thing , LEAP UP AND PRAISE THE GLORIOUS LORD . Dance a jig of praise
around that house my friend . Singing to the glorious LORD and offering up much thanksgiving .

 

[MatthewG]

The biggest questions in all of this

How one perceives God,
How one perceives scripture and context,
How one perceives words (Greek including)

What is the purpose of serving God?
What is the understanding of God and his character, His desires, and His will?

Maybe because many people believe so differently the best thing to do is to hold on to like our brother @amigo de christo and @amadeus suggested holding on to Jesus Christ and remembering what was said by Him.

“And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?” So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’ ” And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.” But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” Then Jesus answered and said: “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.’ So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?” And he said, “He who showed mercy on him.” Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭10:25-37‬ ‭NKJV‬‬