Where is "The Beloved City" and "the camp of the saints" of Revelation 20?

[grafted branch]

And the nations are mentioned there too.

Not sure what you understand by the words "the healing of the nations". I take that in a spiritual sense not a physical sense.

I agree, it’s spiritual healing. The cross reference is Ezekiel 47:12.

 

[ewq1938]

It's says no sea, no death, no crying for those in New Jerusalem.

It doesn't say that plus no sea is said about the NE before NJ descends from heaven. This is solid proof that your theology here is incorrect.

You seem to have a problem with the fact that Revelation 20:6 says there will be no more death for those in New Jerusalem.

It doesn't say NJ. You are adding that in, which is known as eisegesis.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[Timtofly]

It's says no sea, no death, no crying for those in New Jerusalem.

You seem to have a problem with the fact that Revelation 20:6 says there will be no more death for those in New Jerusalem.

So you are saying that the New Jerusalem is attacked even though sin and death no longer exist? Satan is never in the NHNE. Satan is only loosed on this current earth. Then after Satan is cast into the LOF, your NHNE pass away all over again.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Very good~the only exception, and it's minor, is that I would say:

This is how spiritual Jerusalem fell who is the religious sector of Mystery, Babylon the Great of Revelation 17.

Like we have discussed on other forum. Babylon the Great is not the world, nor the "religious sector" of the world. Rather she is the New Testament congregation on Earth that God judges. Not Muslims, Not Hindus, etc.

Who does the interpretations belong to? God. So, how does He give us those interpretations? It is through His Holy word, the "only" inerrant word that we can depend upon that is absolute truth. So then, when we search the Scriptures for who God calls a great city and a harlot, it is His congregation symbolized by the Great Holy City Jerusalem. This represents the children of God. And when they turn away from Him, God labels it as a Harlot. God is not talking about "religious sector" of the world that has nothing to do with congregation of God. They are NOT His people. But don't take my word for it, because interpretations don't belong to me. They are not of me, but of God

Hosea 4:10-12

• "For they shall eat, and not have enough: they shall commit whoredom, and shall not increase: because they have left off to take heed to the LORD.
• Whoredom and wine and new wine take away the heart.
• My people ask counsel at their stocks, and their staff declareth unto them: for the spirit of whoredoms hath caused them to err, and they have gone a whoring from under their God."

His people not the world. The Lord's divinely inspired prophets used this same language of the great city of Jerusalem becoming a harlot in rebuking "unfaithful" Israel in regard to their rebellion against Him. The very same picture puzzle represents their turning to worship other gods. The Revelation of 18 speaks about the Harlot is was revealed when the book of Revelation was opened and John was given it to eat and prophesy to God's servants.

Likewise, in Isaiah, he speaks of the sins of the people of Jerusalem, not world regilions and writes:

Isaiah 1:21

• "How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers."

A city that was once faithful and supposed to represented God's Kingdom, that once had "judgment," but has now become spiritually a harlot. This is what Revelation speaks about when giving us a symbolic picture of the unfaithful church. How hath the once great city fallen and become a habitation of wickedness? That is the imagery of Babylon.

In the book of Jeremiah, we can see the same portrait of this city of God as a harlot.

Jeremiah 3:6-9

• "The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.
• And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
• And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also."

These aren't interpretations belonging to man, but direct from the Holy Scriptures. There's only one "Correct" way to interpret Scripture, and that is "by Scripture." In other words, let God define His own terms. It's not who do we think the harlot is, it is who God demonstrates through Scripture who the fornicating harlot is. Because "interpretations belong to God" (Genesis 40:8), it cannot come from us or world history, national geography, etc. God is the only one who can give us the interpretation that will put us at peace (Genesis 41:16). And clearly (without ambiguity) God prominently gives us illustrations of His congregation, when it turns unfaithful, is specifically called a harlot. Those who look to secular books, church traditions, the world, or church leaders for their interpretations, will never find the God-authored answers.

 

[Red Baker]

Like we have discussed on other forum. Babylon the Great is not the world, nor the "religious sector" of the world. Rather she is the New Testament congregation on Earth that God judges. Not Muslims, Not Hindus, etc.

Hello Erik.

Much of what of have posted I would agree with, not problem.

Nevertheless, Mystery Babylon overall considered is this world system, per many OT scriptures, and that's not a few brother. I think I have started a thread here somewhere on this subject, maybe I can find it later. I've been on another forum lately, and not here, so I'm behind read on this one.

Revelation 17 and Revelation 18 are not speaking of the same subject~chapter seventeen is dealing almost exclusively with the professing apostate church, and much of what you said above I agree. But, brother, chapter eighteen is not the speaking of the whore, but of the men of this world, who also have given themselves over to worship the beast/this world system and all of its lust found in commerce, entertainment, and the lust of many other worldly things that is not of God.

Overall, your source of information is my only source, because we both agree that interpretations do indeed belong to God to whom we both look to provide for us the truth we are seeking for.

Maybe you can do and overall interpretation of Revelation 18, or, if like then I will give my take on it. I'll check in tomorrow, or Sunday, I have a meeting coming very soon, around four EST, so I must get ready for that.

 

[Truth7t7]

Where is "the camp of the saints and the beloved city"?​

The saints are the (Two Witnesses) seen in Revelation chapter 11, the beloved city is Jerusalem

The (Two Witnesses) will bring the plagues upon the world from Jerusalem, the world will be drawn to Jerusalem to kill these two saints, they will lay dead in the streets of Jerusalem for 3.5 days, they will be raised to heaven before the watching world, as the final hour of earth's existence unfolds in the 3rd woe and second coming of Jesus Christ in fire and final judgement (The End)

 

[Zao is life]

The saints are the (Two Witnesses) seen in Revelation chapter 11, the beloved city is Jerusalem

The (Two Witnesses) will bring the plagues upon the world from Jerusalem, the world will be drawn to Jerusalem to kill these two saints, they will lay dead in the streets of Jerusalem for 3.5 days, they will be raised to heaven before the watching world, as the final hour of earth's existence unfolds in the 3rd woe and second coming of Jesus Christ in fire and final judgement (The End)

Where in the Revelation or in scripture does it say that the two witnesses will be operating from Jerusalem - the city on earth and capital city of the Jews, and where else in the Revelation is Jerusalem of the Jews called the beloved city and the camp of the saints? Is it Revelation 11:8 that calls the above Jerusalem "the beloved city" and "the camp of the saints"?

"And their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."

Methinks you have speculated and believed your own speculation. Revelation 11:8 calls that Jerusalem the city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified, and you call it the beloved city and the camp of the saints.

 

[ewq1938]

"And their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."

Methinks you have speculated and believed your own speculation. Revelation 11:8 calls that Jerusalem the city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified, and you call it the beloved city and the camp of the saints.

And Holy city.

Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Where in the Revelation or in scripture does it say that the two witnesses will be operating from Jerusalem - the city on earth and capital city of the Jews, and where else in the Revelation is Jerusalem of the Jews called the beloved city and the camp of the saints? Is it Revelation 11:8 that calls the above Jerusalem "the beloved city" and "the camp of the saints"?

The Great City or the Holy City in the symbolic book of Revelation is the New Testament congregation, the Church, all over the world, where the Elect (Two Witnesses) with the power to prophesy the gospel to the world. They are the camps of the Saints all over the world. It is NOT a literal city in the Middle East.

"And their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."

Methinks you have speculated and believed your own speculation. Revelation 11:8 calls that Jerusalem the city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified, and you call it the beloved city and the camp of the saints.

It is talking about the New Testament congregation that becomes unfaithful where the false prophets and christs sit (rule). Therefore the Great City has become SPIRITUALLY called Sodom (abominations) and Egypt (spiritual bondage). This is where the false prophets and christs will force everyone in the congregation who has NOT YET SEALED by God, Revelation 9 (and after He has finished sealing all of His Elect through the testimony of Two Witnesses is finished) to receive the mark of the beast to show that they are now under the ownership of Satan.

Stop reading the Jersualem Post for physical fulfillment because Revelation 11 calls for spiritual discernment.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Revelation 17 and Revelation 18 are not speaking of the same subject~chapter seventeen is dealing almost exclusively with the professing apostate church, and much of what you said above I agree. But, brother, chapter eighteen is not the speaking of the whore, but of the men of this world, who also have given themselves over to worship the beast/this world system and all of its lust found in commerce, entertainment, and the lust of many other worldly things that is not of God.

Both Revelation 17 and 18 are speaking about the same whore. You may read into Revelation 18 thinking the kings (and merchants) of the Earth are the secular men of the world. That is not true. They are people of the congregation were selling God's merchandise (the riches of the Gospel) that was empowered to the woman in the first place! IT was the same woman in Revelation 12 who have fled to the wilderness (world) where she is fed with Gospel to preach to the world. You need to remember that, in Revelation 18:2, where she was once a faithful representative of God's Kingdom before she became the home of the false prophets and christs with spirit of disobedience (habitation of devils, hold of every foul spirit, and care of every unclean and hateful bird). She has nothing to do with the world system, commerce, entertainment, etc.

Maybe you can do and overall interpretation of Revelation 18, or, if like then I will give my take on it. I'll check in tomorrow, or Sunday, I have a meeting coming very soon, around four EST, so I must get ready for that.

As you know I and others have already explained our interpretation of Revelation 17/18 on another forum where you can review again. I do not have the time to repeat everything here.

 

[Zao is life]

And Holy city.

Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Once again, the following are the only verses in the New Testament where a reference is made to "the holy city":-

Matthew 4:5; Matthew 27:53; and then in the Revelation.

The "cities" mentioned in the Revelation are:-

1. "Babylon the Great".
2. The city "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt".
3. The cities of the nations which fell when the 7th bowl of wrath was poured out.
4. "New Jerusalem".

There are no verses in the Revelation where "Babylon the Great", or the city "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt", or the cities of the nations which fell when the 7th bowl of wrath was poured out, are called "the holy city", but the Revelation calls New Jerusalem "the holy city" three times:

Revelation 21:2; Revelation 21:10; and Revelation 22:19.

Your unholy city is what Paul calls "Jerusalem which now is, and is in slavery with her children." (Galatians 4:25).

Revelation 13:7 says the beast will make war against the saints and overcome them, and Revelation 13:5 states he will be given authority to continue for 42 months - the same amount of time during which what Hebrews calls Mount Zion is being tread underfoot (Revelation 11:2).​

THE HOLY CITY OF THE SCRIPTURES

But you have come to Mount Zion
and to the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
to the general assembly and church of the first-born
who are written in Heaven,
and to God the judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant,
and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
(Hebrews 12:22-24)​

"For Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is, and is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem from above is free, who is the mother of us all." (Galatians 4:25-26).

You ignore whatever facts do not fit your theories, just like Amils do.​

 

[Zao is life]

Both Revelation 17 and 18 are speaking about the same whore. You may read into Revelation 18 thinking the kings (and merchants) of the Earth are the secular men of the world. That is not true. They are people of the congregation were selling God's merchandise (the riches of the Gospel) that was empowered to the woman in the first place! IT was the same woman in Revelation 12 who have fled to the wilderness (world) where she is fed with Gospel to preach to the world. You need to remember that, in Revelation 18:2, where she was once a faithful representative of God's Kingdom before she became the home of the false prophets and christs with spirit of disobedience (habitation of devils, hold of every foul spirit, and care of every unclean and hateful bird). She has nothing to do with the world system, commerce, entertainment, etc.

I agree. The unfaithful part of the church is the harlot. The kings of the earth who commit fornication with her and weep and wail over her demise are not the same as the 10 kings of the beast who will "hate the harlot, render her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire".

In Revelation 1:5 we are told that Jesus Christ is the ruler of the kings of the earth. In Revelation 17:18 we are told that the harlot is reigning over the kings of the earth (instead of Christ).

In the book of Revelation, only:-

(1) Jezebel of the church at Thyatira & her followers; as well as
(2) the kings of the earth; and
(3) the harlot

are said to commit fornication.

Throughout the Old Testament only God's elect committing fornication are called a harlot, and are often called by the name of their city - Jerusalem. Many Christians (rather conveniently) have made the assumption that because Jesus was speaking to the Jewish leaders in Matthew 23:29-38, "Babylon the Great" is therefore referring to the city of Jerusalem which was destroyed in 70 A.D.

They forget the warning of Paul in Romans 11:21-22; the exhortation of Jesus in Revelation 3:18; and the warning in Revelation 2:21-22 to Jezebel of the church at Thyatira and those who commit (spiritual) adultery with her.​

 

[TribulationSigns]

The Revelation identifies the holy city as New Jerusalem 3 times unambiguously, and your unholy city it calls the city "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified".​

Three times? No, there is one more below:

Revelation 21:2; Revelation 21:10; and Revelation 22:19.​

Rev 11:1-2
(1) And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
(2) But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

 

[Zao is life]

Three times? No, there is one more below:



Rev 11:1-2
(1) And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
(2) But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Yes I agree but the three I mentioned make it unambiguous that they are talking about New Jerusalem. Revelation 11:1-2 is the one that does not directly say it's talking about the camp of the saints|Mount Zion.

There is actually a 4th reference, making it 4 references directly identifying the Holy City of Revelation 11:2 with the Mount Zion of Hebrews 12:22-24:

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." (Revelation 3:12).

"But ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the sacred convocation and assembly of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel." (Hebrews 12:22-24).​

 

[TribulationSigns]

I agree. The unfaithful part of the church is the harlot. The kings of the earth who commit fornication with her and weep and wail over her demise are not the same as the 10 kings of the beast who will "hate the harlot, render her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire".​

Rev 17:18
(18) And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

This woman is the congregation of God which is the great city that rules over ALL kings of the earth. However, not all kings of the Earth within the congregation are serving God depending on the context. For example:

True Kings of the Earth (Chosen Elect of the congregation)

Rev 1:5-6​

(5) And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,​

(6) And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev 21:24​

(24) And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.​

Wicked Kings of the Earth (professed Christians of the congregation)

Rev 16:13-14​

(13) And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.​

(14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
​

Rev 19:19​

(19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.​

The beast that deceives the kings of the Earth of the congregation who have NOT YET SEALED of God who will wage spiritual war and overcome against the Chosen Elect Kings of the Earth (eg. Two Witnesses) per Revelation 11. As a result, this New Testament great city/holy city will be trampled underfoot (and eventually fall and desolate) just like the Old Testament congregation of Israel at the Cross prior to the Second Coming.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Yes I agree but the three I mentioned make it unambiguous that they are talking about New Jerusalem. Revelation 11:1-2 is the one that does not directly say it's talking about the camp of the saints|Mount Zion.​

Rev 11:1-2
(1) And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
(2) But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Revelation 11:1-2 is speaking about ONE HOLY CITY made up of two groups of people within the city. The city is symbolically the New Testament Congregation. The Chosen Elect are the measured part of the Temple (Christ). The professed Christians, however, are not to be measured because they do not have Christ (without the temple) BUT they were still part of the Holy City, CORPORATELY or EXTERNALLY working with the Elect to help build the church for the past 2,000 years as "kings of the Earth". Near the Second Coming, those in the court are subject to be handed over (deceived) to Satan when he comes out of the bottomless pit. They will be deceived by Satan's army of false prophets and christs as a judgment of God (Babylon the Great). So yes, the temple of God, the altar, and those that worship therein "IS" the camps of the Saints and Mount Zion. All of the measured Elect will be with the Lord in the air at the Second Coming as New Jersualem, the bride of Christ.

 

[Zao is life]

Rev 17:18
(18) And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

This woman is the congregation of God which is the great city that rules over ALL kings of the earth. However, not all kings of the Earth within the congregation are serving God depending on the context. For example:

True Kings of the Earth (Chosen Elect of the congregation)

Rev 1:5-6​

(5) And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,​

(6) And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev 21:24​

(24) And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.​

Wicked Kings of the Earth (professed Christians of the congregation)

Rev 16:13-14​

(13) And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.​

(14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
​

Rev 19:19​

(19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.​

The beast that deceives the kings of the Earth of the congregation who have NOT YET SEALED of God who will wage spiritual war and overcome against the Chosen Elect Kings of the Earth (eg. Two Witnesses) per Revelation 11. As a result, this New Testament great city/holy city will be trampled underfoot (and eventually fall and desolate) just like the Old Testament congregation of Israel at the Cross prior to the Second Coming.

The not yet sealed of the congregation (the 144,000, which is a symbolic number) are the tares in the parable of the wheat and the tares.

 

[ewq1938]

Once again, the following are the only verses in the New Testament where a reference is made to "the holy city":-

Matthew 4:5; Matthew 27:53; and then in the Revelation.

The "cities" mentioned in the Revelation are:-

1. "Babylon the Great".
2. The city "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt".
3. The cities of the nations which fell when the 7th bowl of wrath was poured out.
4. "New Jerusalem".
​

Old Jerusalem, number 3 is called the Holy City which during the 42 months will spiritually be Sodom and Egypt. There is no other possible choice. It is old Jerusalem that the gentiles tread for that 42 month the beast also has which is the tribulation.

The same type of thing is here:

Psa_79:1 A Psalm of Asaph. O God, the heathen are come into thine inheritance; thy holy temple have they defiled; they have laid Jerusalem on heaps.

A holy temple is defiled just like the holy city of Jerusalem will be defiled and be spiritually as Sodom and Egypt.

 

[Zao is life]

Rev 11:1-2
(1) And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
(2) But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Revelation 11:1-2 is speaking about ONE HOLY CITY made up of two groups of people within the city. The city is symbolically the New Testament Congregation. The Chosen Elect are the measured part of the Temple (Christ). The professed Christians, however, are not to be measured because they do not have Christ (without the temple) BUT they were still part of the Holy City, CORPORATELY or EXTERNALLY working with the Elect to help build the church for the past 2,000 years as "kings of the Earth". Near the Second Coming, those in the court are subject to be handed over (deceived) to Satan when he comes out of the bottomless pit. They will be deceived by Satan's army of false prophets and christs as a judgment of God (Babylon the Great). So yes, the temple of God, the altar, and those that worship therein "IS" the camps of the Saints and Mount Zion. All of the measured Elect will be with the Lord in the air at the Second Coming as New Jersualem, the bride of Christ.

Yes. Measuring the the temple and the altar and those who worship therein is symbolically counting the sheep.

People are not measured with the measurements of the temple and the altar in it if the measurements are literal.

It's metaphorical.

 

[Zao is life]

Old Jerusalem, number 3 is called the Holy City which during the 42 months will spiritually be Sodom and Egypt. There is no other possible choice. It is old Jerusalem that the gentiles tread for that 42 month the beast also has which is the tribulation.

The same type of thing is here:

Psa_79:1 A Psalm of Asaph. O God, the heathen are come into thine inheritance; thy holy temple have they defiled; they have laid Jerusalem on heaps.

A holy temple is defiled just like the holy city of Jerusalem will be defiled and be spiritually as Sodom and Egypt.

The holy city is the body of Christ. God does not dwell in temples made with hands.

If you believed the above, you would never say what you say.