Where is "The Beloved City" and "the camp of the saints" of Revelation 20?

[Zao is life]

The "cities" mentioned in the Revelation are:-

1. "Babylon the Great".
2. The city "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt".
3. The cities of the nations which fell when the 7th bowl of wrath was poured out.
4. "New Jerusalem".

There are no verses in the Revelation where "Babylon the Great", or the city "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt", or the cities of the nations which fell when the 7th bowl of wrath was poured out, are called "the holy city",

but the Revelation calls New Jerusalem "the holy city" three times:

Revelation 21:2; Revelation 21:10; and Revelation 22:19.

THE BRIDE OF CHRIST

"And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air. And a great voice came out of the temple of Heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done!" (Revelation 16:17).

"It is done. I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End.

And I heard a great voice out of Heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God. Therefore they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple. And He sitting on the throne will dwell among them.

They will not hunger any more, nor thirst any more, nor will the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will feed them and will lead them to the fountains of living waters. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes.

To him who thirsts I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely. He who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son. And there will be no more death, nor mourning, nor crying out, nor will there be any more pain; for the first things passed away. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes.

But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

The above promises are made in two different chapters in the Revelation: Revelation 7:15-17 & 21:3-4: One is speaking about the saints who came out from Great Tribulation when Christ returned. The other is speaking about the experience of the saints in New Jerusalem.

REVELATION 20
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Where is "the camp of the saints and the beloved city"?​

New Jerusalem and the thousand years

 

[Randy Kluth]

The "cities" mentioned in the Revelation are:-

1. "Babylon the Great".
2. The city "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt".
3. The cities of the nations which fell when the 7th bowl of wrath was poured out.
4. "New Jerusalem".

There are no verses in the Revelation where "Babylon the Great", or the city "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt", or the cities of the nations which fell when the 7th bowl of wrath was poured out, are called "the holy city",

but the Revelation calls New Jerusalem "the holy city" three times:

Revelation 21:2; Revelation 21:10; and Revelation 22:19.

THE BRIDE OF CHRIST

"And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air. And a great voice came out of the temple of Heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done!" (Revelation 16:17).

"It is done. I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End.

And I heard a great voice out of Heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God. Therefore they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple. And He sitting on the throne will dwell among them.

They will not hunger any more, nor thirst any more, nor will the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will feed them and will lead them to the fountains of living waters. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes.

To him who thirsts I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely. He who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son. And there will be no more death, nor mourning, nor crying out, nor will there be any more pain; for the first things passed away. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes.

But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

The above promises are made in two different chapters in the Revelation: Revelation 7:15-17 & 21:3-4: One is speaking about the saints who came out from Great Tribulation when Christ returned. The other is speaking about the experience of the saints in New Jerusalem.

REVELATION 20
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Where is "the camp of the saints and the beloved city"?​

New Jerusalem and the thousand years

Well, you mention a whole host of "cities," and the only thing some of them have in common is the fact they are all called "cities," and the fact they are all mentioned in the book of Revelation. Some of the cities mentioned refer to Jerusalem, Rome, and capital cities throughout the world, as well as New Jerusalem.

The particular "city" you're talking about, that exists at the end of the Millennium and is attacked by Gog is perhaps a sort of Christian capital amidst a coalition of Christian nations. This is pure guesswork on my part.

My logic is that during the Millennium, Abraham's promises are fulfilled in which Israel will be restored, and many nations will exist as Christian countries. This is similar to what we've had in Christian history, but I believe it will represent the fulfillment of what we have now.

But just as now there are nations that do not entertain the Christian faith. And once Satan is released these pagan nations will be emboldened to attack Christian countries once again, much as Muslim and Communist nations wish to attack former Christian nations today.

Again, this is pure speculation....

 

[ewq1938]

There are no verses in the Revelation where "Babylon the Great", or the city "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt", or the cities of the nations which fell when the 7th bowl of wrath was poured out, are called "the holy city",
​

Incorrect:

Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

 

[Zao is life]

The "cities" mentioned in the Revelation are:-

1. "Babylon the Great".
2. The city "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt".
3. The cities of the nations which fell when the 7th bowl of wrath was poured out.
4. "New Jerusalem".

There are no verses in the Revelation where "Babylon the Great", or the city "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt", or the cities of the nations which fell when the 7th bowl of wrath was poured out, are called "the holy city",

but the Revelation calls New Jerusalem "the holy city" three times:

Revelation 21:2; Revelation 21:10; and Revelation 22:19.​

Incorrect:

Nope. It's correct. Your assigning of the holy city in Revelation 11:2 to any other city except New Jerusalem is incorrect:

The Holy Place | Holy City

[Strongs Greek Dictionary] 02411 (English: Temple ) ἱερόν hierón , hee-er-on' neuter of 2413; a sacred place, i.e. the entire precincts...

zaoislife.blogspot.com

Is the holy city mentioned in Revelation 11:2 the same as the city spiritually called Sodom and Egypt in Revelation 11:8?

And a mouth speaking great things was given to it, and blasphemies. And authority was given to it to continue forty-two months. And it opened its mouth in blasphemy toward God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, and those dwelling in Heaven. And it was given to it to war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given to it over every tribe and tongue and nation. Rev.13:5-7

And a reed like a rod was given to me. And the angel stood, saying, Rise up and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and those who worship in it. But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it was given to the nations. And they will trample the holy city forty-two months. Rev.11:2

There are no cities mentioned in the Revelation that are calling any city the holy city other than New Jerusalem.

PS: You side-stepped the question by your above red herring, which is a false assertion on your part.

Where is the camp of the saints and the beloved city mentioned in Revelation 20:9?

 

[Zao is life]

Well, you mention a whole host of "cities," and the only thing some of them have in common is the fact they are all called "cities," and the fact they are all mentioned in the book of Revelation. Some of the cities mentioned refer to Jerusalem, Rome, and capital cities throughout the world, as well as New Jerusalem.

Thanks for your honest reply

Rome is only mentioned in the Revelation if Babylon the Great refers to Rome. Jerusalem is only mentioned if "the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified" refers to Jerusalem. The cities of the nations are those that fell when the 7th bowl of wrath was poured out.

Granted, your answer is just speculation, but how likely is it that the "the beloved city" is many cities?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Thanks for your honest reply

Rome is only mentioned in the Revelation if Babylon the Great refers to Rome. Jerusalem is only mentioned if "the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified" refers to Jerusalem. The cities of the nations are those that fell when the 7th bowl of wrath was poured out.

Granted, your answer is just speculation, but how likely is it that the "the beloved city" is many cities?

If I remember correctly, you also mentioned the "cities" (plural) of the nations?

And yes, I see the "city that rules the nations" in Rev 17 as Rome. And I see the "city that crucified the Lord" as Jerusalem. Speculative, and just my opinion.

 

[Zao is life]

If I remember correctly, you also mentioned the "cities" (plural) of the nations?

And yes, I see the "city that rules the nations" in Rev 17 as Rome. And I see the "city that crucified the Lord" as Jerusalem. Speculative, and just my opinion.

You may be correct about Rome being Babylon the Great - or at least the capital of a (Christian) harlot. I don't "know" either.

But the cities (plural) of the nations that are going to fall when God's judgment comes are hardly "the camp of the saints and the beloved city"!!

My question is concerning the identity of that city.

@Randy Kluth PS: I agree that it's a universal body - but not the harlot, and not the city where the Lord was crucified.

 

[Davidpt]

The "cities" mentioned in the Revelation are:-

1. "Babylon the Great".
2. The city "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt".
3. The cities of the nations which fell when the 7th bowl of wrath was poured out.
4. "New Jerusalem".

There are no verses in the Revelation where "Babylon the Great", or the city "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt", or the cities of the nations which fell when the 7th bowl of wrath was poured out, are called "the holy city",

but the Revelation calls New Jerusalem "the holy city" three times:

Revelation 21:2; Revelation 21:10; and Revelation 22:19.

THE BRIDE OF CHRIST

"And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air. And a great voice came out of the temple of Heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done!" (Revelation 16:17).

"It is done. I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End.

And I heard a great voice out of Heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God. Therefore they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple. And He sitting on the throne will dwell among them.

They will not hunger any more, nor thirst any more, nor will the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will feed them and will lead them to the fountains of living waters. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes.

To him who thirsts I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely. He who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son. And there will be no more death, nor mourning, nor crying out, nor will there be any more pain; for the first things passed away. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes.

But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

The above promises are made in two different chapters in the Revelation: Revelation 7:15-17 & 21:3-4: One is speaking about the saints who came out from Great Tribulation when Christ returned. The other is speaking about the experience of the saints in New Jerusalem.

REVELATION 20
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Where is "the camp of the saints and the beloved city"?​

New Jerusalem and the thousand years

Something that has crossed my mind is this. This of course can't fit Premil, though.

Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

The court which is without, for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city, which is the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein

 

[TribulationSigns]

REVELATION 20
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Where is "the camp of the saints and the beloved city"?​

The Two Witnesses are the Saints who have received the power to preach the gospel to the world for a symbolic period of 1,260 days which covered the New Testament period. Their testimony will not end until they are killed (by silencing their testimony with false doctrine) by those deceived by satan and his minions to come against them and END their testimony. Satan musters the nations (the army of false prophets and christs) from the four quarters of the earth to come against the camp of the saints (the church) AFTER he is loosed from the pit.

Satan brings this final spiritual warfare to the camp of the saints, with the saints still in it, to wear them out, to overcome them, and to kill (silence their testimony). And the wicked go up and are allowed of God to only hurt those (professed Christians) who do NOT yet have the seal of God. See, the New Testament congregation make up of two groups of people. The Saints and the Professed Christians. They both are within the church, but Satan can only hurt (deceive) those not truly saved, a fulfillment of the fiery words of the two witnesses testimonies. It's only AFTER they are killed that their prophesy in THIS city ends.

Therefore the Camp of the Saints and the Beloved City are not:

1.) Physical city Jerusalem (whenever it was in Preterists' 70AD or Futurists' post-1967AD)
2.) Rome

Rather they represent the NEW TESTAMENT CONGREGATION OF ISRAEL, the church, all over the world with both groups of people within her. One of them will be hurt by Satan as God's judgment for their unfaithfulness. This is how spiritual Jerusalem fell as Babylon the Great. Not literal city as you alleged.

 

[Marty fox]

The "cities" mentioned in the Revelation are:-

1. "Babylon the Great".
2. The city "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt".
3. The cities of the nations which fell when the 7th bowl of wrath was poured out.
4. "New Jerusalem".

There are no verses in the Revelation where "Babylon the Great", or the city "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt", or the cities of the nations which fell when the 7th bowl of wrath was poured out, are called "the holy city",

but the Revelation calls New Jerusalem "the holy city" three times:

Revelation 21:2; Revelation 21:10; and Revelation 22:19.

THE BRIDE OF CHRIST

"And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air. And a great voice came out of the temple of Heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done!" (Revelation 16:17).

"It is done. I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End.

And I heard a great voice out of Heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God. Therefore they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple. And He sitting on the throne will dwell among them.

They will not hunger any more, nor thirst any more, nor will the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will feed them and will lead them to the fountains of living waters. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes.

To him who thirsts I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely. He who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son. And there will be no more death, nor mourning, nor crying out, nor will there be any more pain; for the first things passed away. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes.

But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

The above promises are made in two different chapters in the Revelation: Revelation 7:15-17 & 21:3-4: One is speaking about the saints who came out from Great Tribulation when Christ returned. The other is speaking about the experience of the saints in New Jerusalem.

REVELATION 20
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Where is "the camp of the saints and the beloved city"?​

New Jerusalem and the thousand years

I believe Babylon the great to be the old Jerusalem

 

[Zao is life]

Something that has crossed my mind is this. This of course can't fit Premil, though.

Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

The court which is without, for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city, which is the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein

If the above are both talking about New Jerusalem, then the first one fits just before the 7th trump and just before the thousand years commences, and the last one fits at the close of the thousand years. So if they're both talking about New Jerusalem, then they can fit Premil - it just means it happens twice @Davidpt but the second time, the saints are not hurt by it .

So that's where my understanding has sort of taken me, because I don't believe Revelation 11:1-2 is talking about a physical temple and the city "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, where the Lord was crucified", and I believe the NHNE and the thousand years commence together - but I don't know if New Jerusalem as per Revelation 21 is in a geographical location on the new earth, or not. I can't see how the beloved city and camp of the saints can be referring to anything except New Jerusalem though.​

 

[Zao is life]

The Two Witnesses are the Saints who have received the power to preach the gospel to the world for a symbolic period of 1,260 days which covered the New Testament period. Their testimony will not end until they are killed (by silencing their testimony with false doctrine) by those deceived by satan and his minions to come against them and END their testimony. Satan musters the nations (the army of false prophets and christs) from the four quarters of the earth to come against the camp of the saints (the church) AFTER he is loosed from the pit.

Satan brings this final spiritual warfare to the camp of the saints, with the saints still in it, to wear them out, to overcome them, and to kill (silence their testimony). And the wicked go up and are allowed of God to only hurt those (professed Christians) who do NOT yet have the seal of God. See, the New Testament congregation make up of two groups of people. The Saints and the Professed Christians. They both are within the church, but Satan can only hurt (deceive) those not truly saved, a fulfillment of the fiery words of the two witnesses testimonies. It's only AFTER they are killed that their prophesy in THIS city ends.

Therefore the Camp of the Saints and the Beloved City are not:

1.) Physical city Jerusalem (whenever it was in Preterists' 70AD or Futurists' post-1967AD)
2.) Rome

Rather they represent the NEW TESTAMENT CONGREGATION OF ISRAEL, the church, all over the world with both groups of people within her. One of them will be hurt by Satan as God's judgment for their unfaithfulness. This is how spiritual Jerusalem fell as Babylon the Great. Not literal city as you alleged.

I never alleged a literal city because I agree with your statement which is includes your 1). and 2) above. That's why I asked where the beloved city of Revelation 29:9 is.

I don't agree with your hyper spiritualization of the 1.260 days though, or with your implying that the professed Christians (who I see as the harlot) and the true saints are in the same city, just because in the world the tares and the wheat are both growing together.

I only agree with this part of what you say above:

Therefore the Camp of the Saints and the Beloved City are not:

1.) Physical city Jerusalem (whenever it was in Preterists' 70AD or Futurists' post-1967AD)
2.) Rome

Rather they represent the NEW TESTAMENT CONGREGATION OF ISRAEL, the church, all over the world.

You also don't appear to believe in a literal thousand years which follow the end of this Age, which I do believe the Revelation is saying.

 

[Zao is life]

I believe Babylon the great to be the old Jerusalem

OK. Where is the camp of the saints and the beloved city of Revelation 20:9? Are we to assume you see it as New Jerusalem?

 

[Randy Kluth]

You may be correct about Rome being Babylon the Great - or at least the capital of a (Christian) harlot. I don't "know" either.

But the cities (plural) of the nations that are going to fall when God's judgment comes are hardly "the camp of the saints and the beloved city"!!

My question is concerning the identity of that city.

@Randy Kluth PS: I agree that it's a universal body - but not the harlot, and not the city where the Lord was crucified.

You misunderstood my point. I was questioning whether all of the "cities" you mentioned are tied together. What they had in common was the word "city" and the fact they were mentioned in the book of Revelation. Otherwise, I think they could mean different cities, depending on the context for that "city."

For example, the Great Prostitute in Rev 17 is described using two separate riddles that Christians in John's day would recognize. It was the 6th of 7 great Kingdoms of the Scriptures that would begin with ancient Egypt. It was also a 7-hilled city, which would be associated with Rome.

Finally, John described it as the city ruling the world at that time. That, of course, would be Rome. But he could not directly name it since he would be viewed as seditious.

The description was clever enough to be disguised in apocalyptic language. Every Christian at the time would've known it to be Rome. And it was largely interpreted as such in the Early Church.

The city that crucified Christ would also not likely be mentioned by name, since the apostles were still trying to reach out to Jerusalem and did not want to be viewed as blessing Rome's destruction of the same. But it goes without saying that Jerusalem crucified Christ, and was also associated, in OT prophecy, with returning to Egyptian paganism and to Sodomite corruption.

But the "camp of the saints" mentioned in Rev 20 is distinct from these other references, as I see it. These are believers who become born again *after* the glorification of the Church of the present age.

The fact they have a capital city representing them all is typical even in the present age. It would be like attacking Rome to represent a full scale attack on the Catholic Church.

 

[Marty fox]

OK. Where is the camp of the saints and the beloved city of Revelation 20:9? Are we to assume you see it as New Jerusalem?

Thats the church we are the city that God loves we are New Jerusalem

 

[ewq1938]

Nope. It's correct. Your assigning of the holy city in Revelation 11:2 to any other city except New Jerusalem is incorrect:

NJ isn't even revealed yet at that timeframe. The only known Jerusalem is the same old one and in context it is called the holy city that the enemy treads upon for 42 months. Care to explain how the armies of the beast can enter heaven and tread NJ for 42 months?

The Holy Place | Holy City

[Strongs Greek Dictionary] 02411 (English: Temple ) ἱερόν hierón , hee-er-on' neuter of 2413; a sacred place, i.e. the entire precincts...

zaoislife.blogspot.com

Is the holy city mentioned in Revelation 11:2 the same as the city spiritually called Sodom and Egypt in Revelation 11:8?

Yes. It is the holy city but for 42 months is spiritually changed by the AC.

And a mouth speaking great things was given to it, and blasphemies. And authority was given to it to continue forty-two months. And it opened its mouth in blasphemy toward God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, and those dwelling in Heaven. And it was given to it to war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given to it over every tribe and tongue and nation. Rev.13:5-7

And a reed like a rod was given to me. And the angel stood, saying, Rise up and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and those who worship in it. But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it was given to the nations. And they will trample the holy city forty-two months. Rev.11:2

There are no cities mentioned in the Revelation that are calling any city the holy city other than New Jerusalem.

They cannot trample NJ.

Where is the camp of the saints and the beloved city mentioned in Revelation 20:9?

The camp is next to old Jerusalem. NJ is in heaven until after the GWTJ.

 

[Zao is life]

You misunderstood my point. I was questioning whether all of the "cities" you mentioned are tied together. What they had in common was the word "city" and the fact they were mentioned in the book of Revelation. Otherwise, I think they could mean different cities, depending on the context for that "city."

For example, the Great Prostitute in Rev 17 is described using two separate riddles that Christians in John's day would recognize. It was the 6th of 7 great Kingdoms of the Scriptures that would begin with ancient Egypt. It was also a 7-hilled city, which would be associated with Rome.

Finally, John described it as the city ruling the world at that time. That, of course, would be Rome. But he could not directly name it since he would be viewed as seditious.

The description was clever enough to be disguised in apocalyptic language. Every Christian at the time would've known it to be Rome. And it was largely interpreted as such in the Early Church.

The city that crucified Christ would also not likely be mentioned by name, since the apostles were still trying to reach out to Jerusalem and did not want to be viewed as blessing Rome's destruction of the same. But it goes without saying that Jerusalem crucified Christ, and was also associated, in OT prophecy, with returning to Egyptian paganism and to Sodomite corruption.

But the "camp of the saints" mentioned in Rev 20 is distinct from these other references, as I see it. These are believers who become born again *after* the glorification of the Church of the present age.

The fact they have a capital city representing them all is typical even in the present age. It would be like attacking Rome to represent a full scale attack on the Catholic Church.

No I understood your point, and I agree with what you say about "the camp of the saints".

You can read through the Revelation and tell me what other "cities" are mentioned in the Revelation other than "the beloved city", "Babylon the great", "New Jerusalem", "the city spiritually called Sodom and Egypt" and the cities of the nations that fell when the 7th bowl was poured out.

Then tell me which of the "cities" that come up in the Revelation are called "the holy city".

Because it appears to me that maybe you are arguing with me about something we agree on.

 

[Zao is life]

NJ isn't even revealed yet at that timeframe. The only known Jerusalem is the same old one and in context it is called the holy city that the enemy treads upon for 42 months. Care to explain how the armies of the beast can enter heaven and tread NJ for 42 months?

But you have come to Mount Zion
and to the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
to the general assembly and church of the first-born
who are written in Heaven,
and to God the judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant,
and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
(Hebrews 12:22-24)​

According to what you say in your post, the above is talking about the old Jerusalem.

Yes. It is the holy city but for 42 months is spiritually changed by the AC.

Conjecture.

They cannot trample NJ.

They can if they trample the saints.

The camp is next to old Jerusalem. NJ is in heaven until after the GWTJ.

Now we get to the root of your problem of being unable to identify the "city" that is the camp of the saints. There are too many New Testament verses that refute what you say about when the NHNE will come, and when New Jerusalem will come down from God out of heaven. It's a thousand years before the GWTJ, and the millennium commences at the same time.

Yes, Satan was permitted by God in the Garden of Eden to deceive Adam and Eve, too, and they did not have (eternal) life in themselves, nor was their immortality in themselves, and the result was the first death.

Christ, who IS the resurrection and the life, alone has (eternal) life in Himself and He alone is immortal and the creature's (man's) immortality is in Him because of the breath of life from God.

There will be a second death. And the last time the camp of the saints is surrounded (New Jerusalem) they will not be hurt, because fire will come down from God and devour those who come against them.

But Satan will have been released again first, one last time.

The saints in Christ who overcome will not be hurt by the second death. There is no more death, nor crying, nor curse for those inside New Jerusalem. And there is no more sea for those in Christ either.

Those in Christ have come to New Jerusalem and New Jerusalem is coming when Christ comes. It will come down from God out of heaven with Him. 1,000 years of the rule of saints under his authority, then He will deliver the Kingdom back to God the Father.

New Jerusalem (Revelation 21 & 22) is a description of the experience of the resurrected saints during the thousand years, and forever.

 

[Zao is life]

Thats the church we are the city that God loves we are New Jerusalem

So (I'm not sure what you believe) but even if you don't believe in both the Kingdom of Messiah that has come and the Kingdom of Messiah that is coming (because God's Anointed one has come and God's Anointed one is coming), and even if you don't believe in both the New Jerusalem that has come and New Jerusalem that will come down from God out of heaven, at least you are able to correctly identify the camp of the saints and the beloved city.

 

[ewq1938]

But you have come to Mount Zion
and to the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
to the general assembly and church of the first-born
who are written in Heaven,
and to God the judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant,
and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
(Hebrews 12:22-24)​

Your whole post predictably avoided answering the question: Care to explain how the armies of the beast can enter heaven and tread NJ for 42 months?