Where is "The Beloved City" and "the camp of the saints" of Revelation 20?

[ewq1938]

Three times? No, there is one more below:



Rev 11:1-2
(1) And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
(2) But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

The gentiles of the beast will not tread NJ at all. This is speaking of old Jerusalem during the 42 month trib.

 

[ewq1938]

The holy city is the body of Christ.

Not in Rev 11. It is a literal city where some of the body of Christ/Christians will be killed. It is a holy city that is defiled for a time, just as the verse showed the holy temple would also be defiled.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The not yet sealed of the congregation (the 144,000, which is a symbolic number) are the tares in the parable of the wheat and the tares.

No.

Those who have not yet been sealed by God within the congregation are NOT part of 144,000. Only the chosen Elect are to be sealed symbolically 144,000. For example:

Rev 14:1
(1) And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

They are the same Elect who have been sealed by Christ:

Rev 7:1-4
(1) And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
(2) And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
(3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
(4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

They are spiritual tribes of the children of Israel. All of Elect from the Old Testament and the New Testament in Christ. John "heard" the number that spiritually represents the great multitude that he "beheld." Only those who have NOT YET SEAL of God are not part of 144,000. Why? Because God has finished sealing His people before Satan is loosened and when the testimony of Two Witnesses for the purpose of salvation is finished. There will be no more salvation after this until Christ returns.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The gentiles of the beast will not tread NJ at all. This is speaking of old Jerusalem during the 42 month trib.

Do you even know what is the beast the Lord talks about? And the Gentiles (nations) of Revelation 11 and 20? They are not physical nations. Rather they are people who are NOT SAVED. For example, you (and me) were Gentiles until we are born again that we have become spiritual Jews in Christ. This is the part where many people do not understand fully who the Gentiles of Revelation 11 (and 20) the Lord talked about because they are interpreting with carnal minds - not spiritually discerned.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Yes. Measuring the the temple and the altar and those who worship therein is symbolically counting the sheep.

People are not measured with the measurements of the temple and the altar in it if the measurements are literal.

It's metaphorical.

Do you understand why the angel told John to measure the city, the altar, and worship? What does the reed like unto a rod signifies? Have you thought that the reed of measurement signifies the rod of correction? the Word, that the people might see their error, repent and be corrected?

Ezekiel 43:11

• "and if they be ashamed of all that they have done, show them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may KEEP the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them".

This house of God is a shadow looking forward to the true form or Temple, which is Christ. Except God's congregation conform to Christ (Romas 8:29), they need to be ashamed and to repent of their iniquity. God has measured this House (a 'type' of Christ), and revealed the measurements to Ezekiel telling him to declare 'again' this house to the people that they may see and turn from their unrighteousness. So the measuring signified the revelation of God of the true nature of the Temple, and that he should declare it to the people that they might turn from their sin. God is not telling him to measure a literal Temple, because there was no literal temple in the visions he was receiving, he was given a spiritual vision of the 'true' temple to illustrate that the children of God did not conform to it.

This is the same illustration given us in Revelation 11:1. John is told to rise and measure the Temple, the Altar, and those that worship therein. In other words, show the true dimensions of the true Christ, the Altar (signifying the atonement), and His people therein. It is synonymous with declaring or revealing God, His sacrifice, and His children. Let them measure up to the prescribed dimensions that God has set forth, or let them repent that they do not. Let the people examine themselves (2nd Corinthians 13:5) by the form of this house.

Now do you understand why the people of the court of the temple cannot be measured? Because they were never part of God's salvation plan. They are unsaved professed Christians

 

[ewq1938]

And the Gentiles (nations) of Revelation 11 and 20? They are not physical nations. Rather they are people who are NOT SAVED.

Same thing.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Not in Rev 11. It is a literal city where some of the body of Christ/Christians will be killed. It is a holy city that is defiled for a time, just as the verse showed the holy temple would also be defiled.

Rev 11:7-10
(7) And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
(8) And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
(9) And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
(10) And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


God was NOT talking about a physical city with literal streets where you will see the physical bodies of the Saints there. Here, the Great City represents the New Testament congregations all over the world with the streets which symbolize inside the church where the Saints prophesied with Gospel.

You need to understand that the Two Witnesses are the indivisible church "WITHIN" the external corporate church (Jerusalem) body. And clearly, the power of the Witnesses of God is then gone from there. There is no more torment by the Word of God for the unrighteous from the True Witnesses of the Church. Because they are dead (spiritually speaking), making "ALL" the churches become abominable to God. The world REJOICES because they can hide in the darkness now, for the light of the true church has gone out because of the smoke and darkness released from the pit, if you understand what Revelation 9 is really talking about here.

The nations/Gentiles are unsaved and so are naturally at enmity with the kingdom of God, which is all over the world (Luke 17:20-21). That is to say, if we believe God's word. Friendship with the world is automatically enmity with God.

Satan is the great deceiver and the father of lies, and he rules all who are not children of God. He is the adversary of God.

The law, which is the word of God that the church brings, is a torment to the world that they want silenced.

God has put in their hearts to fulfill prophecy and come against the unfaithful church as judgment.

Revelation 17:16-18

• "And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
• For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
• And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth."

See? There we see a woman on a beast with 10 kings attacking her. Oh, there goes God Spiritualizing again...

 

[Davidpt]

Not in Rev 11. It is a literal city where some of the body of Christ/Christians will be killed. It is a holy city that is defiled for a time, just as the verse showed the holy temple would also be defiled.

Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.


Not only does this involve a city it also involves a temple. To take the city in the literal sense is to also take the temple in a literal sense. Which then means a brick and mortar temple needs to get rebuilt in order to fulfill these verses since the 2nd temple is no longer standing. A rebuilt temple in the future is a Pretrib doctrine, though. But since you are not Pretrib it puzzles me as to why you would think a literal city is meant in these verses, which means a literal temple is meant as well.

As if it makes sense that if another temple gets built in the future, there would be them that worship therein, as in that would be a good thing. Except it would not be a good thing per that scenario, yet in Revelation 11:1 it is a good thing. Therefore, there is zero reason, unless one agrees with Pretrib doctrines, such as a rebuilt temple in the future, to take the city in verse 2 in the literal sense, since this means we have to take the temple in the literal sense as well, otherwise one is cherry picking here by taking one thing in the literal sense but not another thing as well.

Verse 1 and 2 are basically telling us that the city itself is meaning a temple. Therefore, we have to think spiritual here, not literal here instead.

 

[Davidpt]

The saints are the (Two Witnesses) seen in Revelation chapter 11, the beloved city is Jerusalem

The (Two Witnesses) will bring the plagues upon the world from Jerusalem, the world will be drawn to Jerusalem to kill these two saints, they will lay dead in the streets of Jerusalem for 3.5 days, they will be raised to heaven before the watching world, as the final hour of earth's existence unfolds in the 3rd woe and second coming of Jesus Christ in fire and final judgement (The End)

You are neither Premil nor Pretrib, yet you hold some of the same doctrines that Pretrib holds. Maybe you used to be a Pretrib Premil before you changed your position to Amil? If so, what is the point of changing positions if you are still holding on to some of those past positions after having changed positions? I'm not even Amil, yet there are numerous things that I don't take in the literal sense that you do take in the literal sense, and that you are Amil.

 

[ewq1938]

Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.


Not only does this involve a city it also involves a temple. To take the city in the literal sense is to also take the temple in a literal sense. Which then means a brick and mortar temple needs to get rebuilt in order to fulfill these verses since the 2nd temple is no longer standing. A rebuilt temple in the future is a Pretrib doctrine, though. But since you are not Pretrib it puzzles me as to why you would think a literal city is meant in these verses, which means a literal temple is meant as well.

A literal temple is not solely a Pretrib belief plus I believe a verse can have literal and symbolic language. Symbolic temple of the saved, and a court and city for unsaved gentiles which are literal.

 

[ewq1938]

Rev 11:7-10
(7) And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
(8) And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
(9) And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
(10) And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


God was NOT talking about a physical city with literal streets where you will see the physical bodies of the Saints there.

He is talking about a literal city, a literal street and the literal murder of two prophets. He even says this is the same city Christ was crucified at and outside the walls is still at the same city. The walls don't define the exact border of the city. Just outside of Jerusalem is still Jerusalem.

 

[Truth7t7]

You are neither Premil nor Pretrib, yet you hold some of the same doctrines that Pretrib holds. Maybe you used to be a Pretrib Premil before you changed your position to Amil? If so, what is the point of changing positions if you are still holding on to some of those past positions after having changed positions? I'm not even Amil, yet there are numerous things that I don't take in the literal sense that you do take in the literal sense, and that you are Amil.

I differ from Amil in that there will be a future evil human man as John's (The Beast)

There will be a future literal great tribulation of 3.5 years, that starts when (The Beast) is revealed to the world in Jerusalem proclaiming to be God on earth

There will be future prophets returned as the (Two Witnesses) that bring literal plagues on this earth, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

 

[Earburner]

Where is "the camp of the saints and the beloved city"?

Right now, and ever since Pentecost, under the Age of God's Grace, through faith in Jesus (the figurative "a thousand years"), EVERY born again saint HAS BEEN a member of THE CAMP of the saints, wherein our TEMPORARY flesh and blood bodies, does God's Holy Spirit dwell (to tabernacle).**

The Feast of Tabernacles (temporary booths/shelters. Lev. 23:42-43) is the typology of it.

The NT understanding:
2 Cor. 4[7] But we have this treasure [God Himself] IN [our] earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.**

2Cor.5 [1] For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
[4] For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but [to be] clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

So then, while we are dwelling in our temporary earthen bodies, through the shed blood of Jesus Christ, God Himself CAN NOW also dwell (tabernacle) within us, through Jesus. Heb. 10
[20] By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

Therefore, we being the CAMP of the Saints right now, are also a CAMP unto the Lord, whereby both are eagerly waiting for the Day of our Immortality, to be made in the likeness of Jesus.

**Note: (to) tabernacle
2 of 2
verb
tabernacled; tabernacling ˈta-bər-ˌna-k(ə-)liŋ
intransitive verb
: to take up temporary residence
especially : to inhabit a physical body.
(MW Dictionary)

 

[TribulationSigns]

He is talking about a literal city, a literal street and the literal murder of two prophets.

That is what your carnal mind wants you to think but that is not what God talked about according to the rest of Scripture.

He even says this is the same city Christ was crucified at and outside the walls is still at the same city.

You missed the point that Christ was trying to tell you. He did NOT tell us to look for a literal city in the Middle East where Christ was crucified since we already knew that. But here in Revelation 11, after the Cross, it is the the New Testament Church that God is talking about here! The home of the camps of the Saints, and the crucified Christ.

When we carefully examine passages like Revelation 11, the two witnesses (representing the elect within the Church - not two men) are overrun there because the leaders, pastors, and ministers are all gone away from the Word of God. They have usurped God's authority by accepting man's authority. In other words, they rule by the precepts of men, rather than God.

It is a sad fact of the Church that Christians today are happy to point at the leaders, nations, politicians, and unbelievers as to the apostasy in the world, but God points right at them. ...judgment begins at the house of God. They have neglected to look in the mirror at their own wilfull voluntarily neglect of the word of God. And this is the "why and how!" The why of the judgment is because of their falling away, the forsaking the precepts of God in favor of the precepts of men. The how of the judgment is by God recompensing upon their heads exactly what they desire. For they desire the words of men over the word of God, and thus God sends them strong delusion because they have no love for His truth. They deceitfully handled the word of God, Wilfully sinning against the crucified Christ, who they claim has died for them but where they are preaching has become spiritually Sodom and Egypt.

Hebrews 10:26-29

• "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
• But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
• He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
• Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

That's why God had before cautioned His House to:

Romans 16:17-18

• "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
• For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple."

The smooth talkers in the Churches, like Joel Osteen, preaching peace and love, where there is no peace and love. The politically correct preachers and leaders whose only desire is to please men, glorify themselves or give themselves an advantage.
So, no, God is NOT talking about literal city, literal temple, literal Jews in the Middle East at all. They already lost the kingdom representation at the Cross which was given to the New Testament congregation where Christ, as chief cornerstone NOW STANDS! And here God is warning that the New Testament congregation will also fall just like Israel was in the same way where the unfaithful are attacking the Chosen believers.

 

[TribulationSigns]

A literal temple is not solely a Pretrib belief plus I believe a verse can have literal and symbolic language. Symbolic temple of the saved, and a court and city for unsaved gentiles which are literal.

That is confusion, inconsistency, and lack of sound hermeneutics. You can't cherry-pick how you want a verse to be literal and then the next spiritually. This is not how it works and that explains why your doctrine is false.

 

[ewq1938]

That is what your carnal mind wants you to think but that is not what God talked about according to the rest of Scripture.

No, it's the literal nature and details of the passage that tells us that. It's the carnal mind that often wants to spiritualize what is written to create something new, and different than what God has given.

The two prophets are killed in Jerusalem like Christ was, and will resurrect and even ascend into heaven as Jesus also did.

 

[ewq1938]

That is confusion, inconsistency, and lack of sound hermeneutics. You can't cherry-pick how you want a verse to be literal and then the next spiritually. This is not how it works and that explains why your doctor is false.

Nonsense. One verse can have literal and symbolic language.

 

[TribulationSigns]

No, it's the literal nature and details of the passage that tells us that. It's the carnal mind that often wants to spiritualize what is written to create something new, and different than what God has given.

The two prophets are killed in Jerusalem like Christ was, and will resurrect and even ascend into heaven as Jesus also did.

Really? Literal nature? Okay then you also must believe that your two men will spew fire from their mouths upon the enemies in literal city?

Rev 11:5
(5) And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

Do you understand what God is talking about here? Have you studied with the rest of Scripture to find out exactly what God talked about in Revelation 11? By comparing Scripture with Scripture, God spiritualized:

Jer 5:14
(14) Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

Leave your literal doctrine to the circus with a show of fire-breathing men.

 

[Zao is life]

No.

Those who have not yet been sealed by God within the congregation are NOT part of 144,000. Only the chosen Elect are to be sealed symbolically 144,000. For example:

Yes that is what I meant. The not yet sealed are not yet part of the 144,000.

Rev 14:1
(1) And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

They are the same Elect who have been sealed by Christ:

Rev 7:1-4
(1) And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
(2) And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
(3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
(4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

They are spiritual tribes of the children of Israel. All of Elect from the Old Testament and the New Testament in Christ. John "heard" the number that spiritually represents the great multitude that he "beheld." Only those who have NOT YET SEAL of God are not part of 144,000.

Yes. It is ALL Israel. Sealed Jews in Christ + sealed Gentiles in Christ.

God has finished sealing His people before Satan is loosened and when the testimony of Two Witnesses for the purpose of salvation is finished. There will be no more salvation after this until Christ returns.

"No man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled." Rev.15:8.

If the two witnesses have anything to do with the seven last plagues coming upon the world (turning waters to blood etc) then before the wrath of God begins to be poured out, God will be finished sealing His people. So what you say above is true.

 

[ewq1938]

Really? Literal nature? Okay then you also must believe that your two men will spew fire from their mouths upon the enemies in literal city?

I already stated that a verse can have literal and symbolic language. The two men, the city, the being killed and laying in the street 3.5 days, resurrecting and ascending into heaven are obviously literal.