No--the New Jerusalem is heaven come to earth--the permanent dwelling place for the Father, and Son as well as all of God's resurrected people. It will be 1,400 miles high, 1,400 miles deep and 1,400 miles wide and its walls will be 200 feet thick. There will be no need for lamps, sun or moon as God Almighty and the Lamb will be its light throughout Eternity. Unlike the Jerusalem of the Millennial Kingdom, there will be no Temple in the New Jerusalem.
Where is the New Jerusalem?
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No--the New Jerusalem is heaven come to earth--the permanent dwelling place for the Father, and Son as well as all of God's resurrected people. It will be 1,400 miles high, 1,400 miles deep and 1,400 miles wide and its walls will be 200 feet thick. There will be no need for lamps, sun or moon as God Almighty and the Lamb will be its light throughout Eternity. Unlike the Jerusalem of the Millennial Kingdom, there will be no Temple in the New Jerusalem.
teamventure
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If we are manifesting God then we are all doing a lousy job then.
We are not meant to manifest God, we are encouraged to renew our minds and to then put on the refurbished personhood that God intended us to be like, from the beginning of time.
bbyrd009
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Waiting on him
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Naomi25
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That was sort of my point. We are not told that anyone is currently occupying, so I thought it was a bit of a leap to say there was. But...you know me...I like to ask for verses to see if or where the idea being promoted, came from.
Again, this was my point. 12 is symbolic. It's not that the number 12 is not actually used all throughout scripture...the same with 7. But its clear it's used because of the symbolic meaning behind them. Enoch has repeatededly (with BOLD) claimed that numbers are NEVER used symbolically in Revelation, or even in scripture in general. So, you know, I found it interesting that she admitted herself that 12 did have symbolic meaning. Sort of changes the landscape of the conversation a bit, I think.
Is not "here" a Christian forum? What I said was that "IF" we are manifesting God, {on this forum}, that we were lousy at that task.
I thought that you would have seen the link to "here" and God being manifested on "here."
At a number of restaurants where they have outside siting areas, they often put up signs on the adjacent walls tell patron that if they want to sit "here" that they should see management first.
I too would have concerns for the patrons as well, if they wanted to sit where the sign was. A very difficult task at the best of times unless the restaurant has chairs and tables that simply hang off the wall where the sign is.
Another gag.
I have been wanting to get a tee shirt with the following printed on it, "Hi my name is Here, please pay me," for when I am in shops that have a sign in the middle of nowhere which says, "Please pay here."
It's interesting how things.
New earth
Three heavens to one. Back to the status of Genesis 1:1
Hell is thrown into the lake of fire. We do not know where the lake is
no more physical temple
no more death, disease, pain, aging, sex, childbirth, sun, moon, male, female, blood, races, etc.
We will not remember the cares and issues of his life.
We will not miss any who are in the lake.
Our family will now be God every other saint there.
Fascinating is that with all we are told we cannot begin to picture the reality of the beauty of it all
As far as the Lake goes the reality of existence there is all within will have rejected God so they will not have access to all the blessings of God. We know that the fire there will be unpleasant but it will not consume. Their resurrected earthly flesh will exist for eternity. A hard reality to imagine and one I want nothing to do with.
To totally focus us on everything around us and eternity will have to be one amazing reality.
Far beyond our ability to even begin to understand.
New earth
Three heavens to one. Back to the status of Genesis 1:1
Hell is thrown into the lake of fire. We do not know where the lake is
no more physical temple
no more death, disease, pain, aging, sex, childbirth, sun, moon, male, female, blood, races, etc.
We will not remember the cares and issues of his life.
We will not miss any who are in the lake.
Our family will now be God every other saint there.
Fascinating is that with all we are told we cannot begin to picture the reality of the beauty of it all
As far as the Lake goes the reality of existence there is all within will have rejected God so they will not have access to all the blessings of God. We know that the fire there will be unpleasant but it will not consume. Their resurrected earthly flesh will exist for eternity. A hard reality to imagine and one I want nothing to do with.
To totally focus us on everything around us and eternity will have to be one amazing reality.
Far beyond our ability to even begin to understand.
You failed to do your homework assignment, Naomi. So let's make sure that you know FROM SCRIPTURE that the New Jerusalem is not only currently occupied, but it is teeming with life. (And CoreIssue, who says "no one is currently occupying" is not aware either)
HEBREWS 12
22 But ye are come [PRESENT TENSE] unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and [1] to an innumerable company of angels,
23 [2] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and [3] to God the Judge of all, and [4] to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And [5] to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and [6] to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
So who all are presently in the New Jerusalem?
1. ALL THE HOLY ANGELS -- an innumerable company of angels
2. ALL THE NT SAINTS WHO HAVE PASSED ON -- the general assembly and church of the firstborn
3. GOD THE FATHER -- God the Judge of all
4. ALL THE OT SAINTS BROUGHT OUT OF SHEOL/HADES -- the spirits of just men made perfect
5. THE LORD JESUS CHRIST -- Jesus the mediator of the new covenant
6. THE BLOOD OF CHRIST -- the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
While we are not told about the holy angels being there when the New Jerusalem descends, we are told there (1) there will be no temple there, (2) God and the Lamb will be the temple thereof, and (3) all the saints of God until the Resurrection/Rapture will be there eternally as the Wife of the Lamb.
Naomi25
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Does it matter what the "units" are called? Clearly they can be "converted" into miles, which you already know the distance of. Said actual measurements of this city would mean the people living up top would need a re-breather...you know, from lack of atmosphere...hence my point of the 'impractical dimensions' of the city.
The POINT of the '12,000' is not the dimensions of the city, but the purpose of the city. That's the "point you're missing".
But, if you really, really need those units, they're called stadia, and you can find them in a lot of bible versions.
Is it a rabbit trail if it's in scripture? Why tell us that this particular city is a perfect square? Why tell us that the holy of holies is a perfect square? Why, when it comes to it, tell us the dimensions of this city at all? As I've said all along...why the systematic use of repeating numbers? If 12 is only connected to the heavenly Jerusalem, why do we see it everywhere else? If you admit that the number 12 has a significance past just being after 11 and before 13, then your answer that it only does so for the heavenly city is not satisfactory...in fact it is most lacking and you systematically miss every other time God has used the number with similar purpose.
Ah. No...see, this was the part where I was questioning that there is any bible verses that tell us there are any current residents in the NJ. I see none. I was encouraging you to provide any if you had them. I was hoping you had some that you'd pulled the idea from, rather than just assuming....That's your next homework assignment.
Why is it a problem? The problem is that you have just contradicted yourself, massively, and don't seem to see an issue with it. So...which is it? Either you stand by your original argument that numbers are NEVER used symbolically, or you now change your mind and ALL your previous arguments along this line are moot. In which case the whole landscape of the conversation changes and 99% of the argument you tried to stand on against 'numbers used symbolically' crumbles. When you factor into all this your willingness to dismiss the idea of "day" meaning 'there was evening and morning - the first day', then you've actually stepped very neatly into the realm of interpreting scripture and numbers as I do. The only difference between us is that I allow all of scripture to speak that way, where as you pick and choose which numbers you allow to be 'literal' or 'symbolic' in order to make them fit your doctrine.
But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,
23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
Yet again Enoch struggles with the difference between promises and reality.
Where does it say anyone is living in Jerusalem?
I can come to any city but that does not mean I live there.
It does not say all Angels live there. It simply says you have come to Thousands of them.
It does not say the church is already there. If so then we missed the rapture And are not born again.
It does not say the wedding supper has taken place. If we missed out then again we missed the rapture And are not born again.
It says we have come to God, which we do when born again.
It says we have come to the spirits of the righteous. We do this on the earth when we become part of the church.
He gets a lot right but sadly Enoch gets a lot wrong.
There is no way to read this passage and get new Jerusalem is occupied out of it.
You have to understand Enoch would go by what the KJV says if everyone else in the world told him it was wrong.
In this case he cannot use stadia because the KJV does not.
Remember, this is the guy that defends Easter being in the KJV.
As for needing an air supply, will glorified Saints need air?
Since there is only one heaven will it be full of air?
Remember, God created the earth to be inhabited, then there was a war in heaven, then he wrapped darkness around the earth and then he created the sun and the moon, day and night.
We are told a lot about how things will be also not told a lot.
Why should it questionable that they would be needed again?
It is staring you in the face and you are denying it? In that case we need not bother with Scripture.
teamventure
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Willie you sound like some athiests I've heard. Also, I'm still waiting on your non literal enterpretation.
Naomi25
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Tchh. How naughty of me. To not do something I didn't sign on for in the first place. If you make a claim and someone asks for you to back it with scripture, is it really their job to look it up as "homework"? Isn' that just you being lazy?
Oh, goodness. You just totally miss the whole point of that passage, don't you?
It's not an address book. The passage draws on extensive OT imagery of a new heavenly Zion/Jerusalem to say that Christian's have access in the invisible, spiritual realm, into the heavenly Jerusalem, and therefore participate in worship with innumerable angels and the great “assembly” (Heb. 12:23) of those who have died in faith and are already in God’s presence. It speaks of them (and us now) having access to such things through Christ's mediatory blood and work, and thus we are made 'righteous and perfect'.
But, sure, set up an address book if you like, but it simply does not say that.
Naomi25
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When we consider "how" things "could" be in the new heavens and earth, we could just go wild. Anything is possible with God, is it not? So, sure...He could make it that we didn't need to breath. This is probably going to be launching into another topic and that wasn't really my aim, but it sort of fits into my point here, so I'll mention it: sure...can God set it up that there will be no sun, no moon and no sea? Sure. But is that what is really meant by those verses? No...probably not. All throughout scripture, what does the sea stand for, symbolize? Chaos, destruction, war. It's usually how enemies decended upon Israel, so all those things came together. Revelation is telling us that in eternity, there will be no more chaos, no more war, or destruction. It's not saying we need to say goodbye to beach days and coral reefs. Likewise, when God tells us he will be the light, so there will be no need for a sun and moon, do we take it literally? Could do. But I'm inclinded to take it 'literally' in how we USE the sun and moon. We use them to see everything by. We use them to live...no light, no life. Likewise, in eternity, God will be our guiding factor in everything. Not a second will pass where his illuminating love and guidance won't be front and centre for us.
Why do I take that view? Because of Genesis. Because how God made the universe and us, intially, was GOOD. God made us to need air. God made the planet need the Sun, to revolve around the sun, to mark time and seasons via the 'lights'.
Now...I'm not dogmatic about it, but considering how symbolic Revelation is, and considering how pleased God was with everything initially, I'm not sure we can put too much stock in huge changes ahead...not with much certainty anyway!
bbyrd009
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that they may be One as We are One
don't see any reason that can't be interpreted that way?
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