I'd suggest giving this some thought in light of living in communion with God.
I believe that God begot us to have a new life so that we can have that life shared with Him. Hm. I think it's time for a new thread!
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I believe that God begot us to have a new life so that we can have that life shared with Him. Hm. I think it's time for a new thread!
So then, you DO agree with this statement:
Jesus keeps you saved if you keep believing. If you stop believing Jesus will stop saving you.
This is correct?
Much love!
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Finished but ongoing . . . yes, Justification and reconciliation and rebirth are finished, ongoing is intercession, and sanctification. To come will be resurrection and transformation. I know we can add to these.
And of course, Jesus' offering of Himself was accomplished on earth, at that time, and is finished, once for all.
Are you saying Jesus continues to offer Himself in heaven?
I've read views like that from Ray Steadman, and Lambert Dolphin, plus I remember Jon Coursen taught that.
Much love!
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
I suggest you read 2 Peter 1:5-7. What's the LAST thing listed? The believer will get there, it just takes time for that to be a significant part of their life of obedience. It's a process of maturing to get to the life of 'agape' love.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
In the simplicity of your statement, yes, that is correct. Unbelievers simply do not inherit the kingdom, no matter how hard some in the church have been asserting for the last 30 or 40 years that believers who stop believing remain saved.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
NO! Read Hebrews. It says that his work is finished, but it is not like the ministry of the Levites in that Jesus' ministry NEVER ENDS. Finished, but never ending. Read it. Behold reads it like a finished work and leaves off the 'ongoing' part. If it wasn't ongoing it would be no more effective at saving a person than the Levite's ministry was!
Anyway, I've never disagreed with you, unbelievers aren't saved. Only where you go on and on and on across many different threads that this is equally true with the reborn children of God.
Which shows, to my understanding of the Word, a poor understanding of what rebirth is, and of what our reconciliation is.
I keep hoping to show you a greater understanding which you may find to be quite life changing.
Much love!
Which shows, to my understanding of the Word, a poor understanding of what rebirth is, and of what our reconciliation is.
I keep hoping to show you a greater understanding which you may find to be quite life changing.
Much love!
The effective part is a new creation in Christ. We are alive in Him, and since His life never ends, ours won't either. You suppose we have the power to change that. Or convince Him to, as if God didn't know that sin is of the flesh, and we are reborn the spirit children of God.
We didn't connect ourselve to God. We can't "disconnect"ourselves from Him either. And He says in so many ways, this is forever. Can't be broken.
Much love!
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Yes, we don't disagree about that. Explain to Behold that unbelievers are not saved.
By definition, reborn children of God are believers. All believers are saved. So the discussion about being unsaved because of unbelief doesn't apply to them. I have never said a born again person can be born again and be in unbelief at the same time. If a person is in unbelief they are not born again.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
It doesn't matter what you or I think about that. What matters is that you believe and that you continue to believe all the way to the end of your life.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
It's up to God because no one can believe and trust in God unless God enables them to trust and believe in him through the unmerited gift of faith that he provides at his choosing.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Forgiveness is an ongoing thing for the believer. It's not just completed in the past. When a believer sins (not an unbeliever) their sin is instantly forgiven because Christ's ministry is ongoing. That's why believers must continue to believe, so we can continue to be forgiven. Whether or not we can and will continue to believe is not the point. But that's the point we get hung up on. The point is you must continue to believe.
What comfort, what value is it to someone who doesn't really believe that they solve the mystery of whether or not the true believer can stop believing? What we're to be focusing on is that we are really saved in the first place. And the way you know that is by how you are living. Instead of this important message from the Bible the church likes to major in meaningless contentions that don't prepare anyone for the coming of Christ and can actually leave them unprepared for his coming.
What matters is that you be born again.
Your state of mind is not what's going to allow or deny entrance to God's kingdom.
That will be based on whether you know Jesus now. Whether you have new life in Him. That you've been born again.
Much love!
Who sins?
It is no more I, but sin that lives in me. That's what Paul wrote.
We need to have a clear understanding of Justification, not just in declaration, but in a new creation. Brand new, righteous, united to God, our life actually God's life in us.
The yearning in our hearts towards God as we go through this life, this is the presence of God within us, crying with our spirit, to God our Father.
Dead to the Law, which was what would condemn you. Now we are under the Law of Christ, who happens to also be our intercessor! There is No Condemnation!
Be born again! Be reconciled to God! And rest from all your works! Live in His works, as He works in you.
Much love!
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Paul wrote this too...
2 Corinthians 7:1
let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.
let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.
That tells me you are misinterpreting what Paul said about I not sinning anymore, but sin that lives in me. You (and me) do in fact sin. Don't go blaming it on something else!
...as long as you keep believing. And if you are convinced true believers will always believe, then good. But that surely doesn't change the fact that the believer must continue to believe in order to be saved when Jesus comes back.
Are you going to?
What if this? What if that? All hypotheticals. Hypotheticals aren't reality, and can be turned whatever direction you wish.
Much love!
Are you asserting that the verse you've quoted negates the meaning of the one I quoted? Certainly it does not!
We have a part to play in the conduct of our lives as we endeavor to live for Christ. Certainly!
But that in no manner negates the fact of what happened in our justification, and it remains true, it is no more I, but sin that lives in me. Paul's words, not mine, and correct doctrine will harmonize with all passages.
Much love!
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Your believing does.........believing "expressing itself through love" (Galatians 5:6). The faith that justifies all by itself without works is the faith that works. Paul said this, not me.
That's why you can tell for sure if you are saved or not by how you live. Real faith that lays hold of justification through Christ works in a person. Fake faith that has not taken a hold of justification through Christ does not work. James calls that 'dead faith', the faith that can not save. You can tell for sure if you are saved or not by if your faith works.
James 2:18
...I will show you my faith by my deeds.
...I will show you my faith by my deeds.
Faith that works shows you are saved. Dead faith shows you are not saved.
