You are saying I'm defining words based on my doctrinal view. What do you call it?
Much love!
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Much love!
Yet, trying to keep yourself from going to hell by maintaining a "do this" list or a "dont do that" list, is YOU trying keep yourself saved.
So, when you try to do it, you are not trusting in Christ to do it for you.
Now you can respond with a dodge, but you are saying to me, how many times now?......that as long as you do something, then by doing that, you dont go to hell.
So that DO........is what you are trusting to get you into heaven, and so, that is not trusting Christ.
That's self saving.
And that's legalism.
And when you do that, you are "fallen from Grace".
How do you define "zoen aionion"? On what foundation do you make your definition?
Much love!
Even in just applying logic,
Either . . .
You are saved and that's a done deal, so there will be no loss of salvation, or,
You are saved, and God is keeping you saved, and He's not going to fail, or,
You are saved, and you are keeping your self save, if you can.
According to the Bible, we who believe will never die. So that leaves the first or the second, but not third option.
We see this in Colossians 3 as well:
Colossians 3:3-4
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
One of those great and precious promises!
Much love!
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
I'm not doing that. That would be the infamous works gospel. It is through faith that a person is preserved by God for the day of salvation, not works. Works are only the expression of faith. Works are the metric by which faith is measured. That's why works confirm that you are saved and ready to meet Jesus when he comes back. The changed life is how you know for sure that you are saved. That has nothing whatsoever to do with works earning salvation for yourself.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
I posted it earlier. 1 John 5:20.
Eternal life is a person that comes to live inside of you. And he is alive forever more, whether he is in you because you believe, or not in you because of unbelief.
Ferris and Justbyfaith are trying to stay saved.
Ditto Marymog, and Breadoflife.
So, that is the result of not believing that Jesus keeps you saved.
They do not actually yet understand what this means..... among other things..
1. New Creation IN Christ
2. Eternal Life
3. "ONE with God and Christ"
These members have had terrible teachers, and they are caught up in their Teacher's wrong believing , which includes the false idea that Salvation is a process, and that Salvation can be lost.
See, they wrongly comprehend salvation as something Jesus started and they are to continue it, or they lose it.
They do not yet SEE that Salvation was completed 2000 yrs ago, and they are not requited to complete it, as Jesus surely let us know that He had completed it just before He died and when He told us..>"its is FINISHED", or as its translated in some bibles..>"it is accomplished".
Jesus finished SALVATION 2000+ yrs ago, and this finished work on the Cross is still being offered to the world as "Justification by Faith", and the "Grace of God" = as the "Gift of Salvation", right until the very instant the Great Trib starts, and then the rules change, as the "time of the Gentiles" ends.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Trusting in God for the forgiveness of sin is not a work of self righteous merit.
Romans 4:5
...to the one who does not work but trusts God...
...to the one who does not work but trusts God...
It's the one who works vs. the one who trusts. How can you not see it right under your nose? The person who is trusting God is not working. But you say the person who is trusting God is working. How are you missing this fundamental truth of Christianity plainly written in the Bible? I think you're missing it because you have been told that doing anything is the definition of the works gospel. That is NOT the definition of the works gospel. Trusting in God is not included in the works that can not justify. It is diametrically opposed to trying to earn a declaration of righteousness through work.
You are denying the definition of the words themselves. zoen aionos is not equal to Iesous. If you do not know the meanings of the words, that would be a good place to start.
And those pesky words studies . . .
" . . . should not perish, but have eternal life . . ." (shows meaning in the contrast)
John 10:28
28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
This expression . . . "eternal life", has a meaning of it's own. What is it?
Jesus used the words this way, "I give to them eternal life, and they shall never perish".
They shall never perish . . . because . . . this life . . . is eternal. Age-during.
Much love!
You have told me, countless times, that if a person does not hold on, does not keep believing..
See those 2?
Those are SELF EFFORT. = thats a work.
So, according to you, those works keep you saved if you do them, and if you dont, then you will go to hell.
And like i told you, whatever it is that you TRUST to keep you saved, is your SAVIOUR.
"well, im trusting that if i keep BELIEVING then i keep myself SAVED"..
What is the problem with that?
Its this..... if you are born again, you are already saved.
You dont maintain that, ... you exist AS that...."in Christ" = forever.
As i told you......your savior is...."as long as i keep believing".
Whereas mine is. "the finished work of Jesus on the Cross".
See the difference?
You are trusting in you to continue your salvation, as long as you keep doing it.
Im trusting in what Christ did already, that has saved me 2000 yrs ago,= that has made me eternally secure, forever.
See, "falling from grace" does not argue that Christ saves you......it argues that he does not KEEP you saved.
"falling from Grace".....sounds like this, Ferris....>"yes, i KNOW Im saved.....but, see.....i have to"...
See that?
Look carefully.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Why are you ignoring Romans 4:5? Are you not able to see that believing and works are not the same thing.....
Romans 4:5
....to the one who does not work but trusts God....
....to the one who does not work but trusts God....
Do your eyes not see that Paul is distinguishing working from trusting? Trusting in God is distinguished from the doing of works to earn salvation. But you are equating the two in direct contradiction to plain scripture. Why?
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Me and John together, then, I guess.
1 John 2:24
24As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father.
24As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father.
How are you not able to see these plain words? I want to know what's going on inside of the head of the person who defies the plain words of scripture. What's going on inside of you that makes it so you can not see the verse above? I want to know what causes people to not see the plain words of scripture.
Read just 3 more verses in that Chapter and notice that God does not charge sin to the Born Again.
So, here is how salvation is found...
God came here. God dies on THE Cross. This Death justifies all who receive Christ, by Faith.
This justification, is to be redeemed by the Blood of Jesus, and become "the righteousness of God, In Christ".
Once you are there, you stay, because its GOD who has placed you there.
There is no changing what God has completed...
See, being born again, is completed Justification by Faith.
You are trying to complete it, by not losing your salvation.
"well, as long as i keep believing, i am able to keep completing my salvation"..
See that?
That is you.
@marks, your words say one thing, but your faith in your early release from the troubles of this world tells people the very opposite.
Twenty or so years ago when I began visiting a third world country by myself and sometimes with my wife, where it is illegal for me to preach God's Salvation message, in that if I was reported to the authorities, I could have been put in prison, for doing so, I had to answer the question as to whether or not I was prepared to suffer for the sake of God if I visited that nation.
God will often put us in certain situations where our faith in Him is tested. Our response can be to ask our friends to pray that the cause of the situation be removed far away from us or we can ask God how we can help the person in the situation who is causing us grief. Is the person in need of our help in some way. Have we considered that our grief maker is in reality calling out for help to change his circumstances for the better.
Do we respond appropriately when God puts someone in need in our orbit?
I know that I do not always respond appropriately, and sometimes it is difficult for the other person to comprehend what we are suggesting for them to do. Why is that so? Because we try to do things in our own strength and when we do that it will often backfire on us because the other person sees through our hypocrisy and wants no part in that.
God helps us to change to have a better relationship with Him, but often times we struggle and resist the lessons that He is trying to teach us.
Shalom
Twenty or so years ago when I began visiting a third world country by myself and sometimes with my wife, where it is illegal for me to preach God's Salvation message, in that if I was reported to the authorities, I could have been put in prison, for doing so, I had to answer the question as to whether or not I was prepared to suffer for the sake of God if I visited that nation.
God will often put us in certain situations where our faith in Him is tested. Our response can be to ask our friends to pray that the cause of the situation be removed far away from us or we can ask God how we can help the person in the situation who is causing us grief. Is the person in need of our help in some way. Have we considered that our grief maker is in reality calling out for help to change his circumstances for the better.
Do we respond appropriately when God puts someone in need in our orbit?
I know that I do not always respond appropriately, and sometimes it is difficult for the other person to comprehend what we are suggesting for them to do. Why is that so? Because we try to do things in our own strength and when we do that it will often backfire on us because the other person sees through our hypocrisy and wants no part in that.
God helps us to change to have a better relationship with Him, but often times we struggle and resist the lessons that He is trying to teach us.
Shalom
That happens all too much!
However, as I am honest with myself about myself, I find I can be honest with God. Being honest with God enables me to receive better what He tells me, I think, as I then have a context in reality.
When we deny the truth about ourselves, it's just closing our eyes to Him.
To not be wrapped up in myself, to just let Jesus worry about me, this frees my mind to be more attentive to others.
Much love!
Yes, this can sound strange to those who don't normally think this way.
I frequently come back to Romans 8, We have received the spirit of adoption, by which we cry Abba, Father!
"The Spirit of adoption, by which we cry . . ." both cry in a single voice, the Holy Spirit and my spirit. How to separate between my spirit and God's Spirit, He has made us one!
Such condescension of the Almighty Creator to join me to Himself! But that's what eternal life is!
So much love!
I get it. A pre-trib thing.
This is a misdirection, I think.
Do you really think . . . that I really think . . . I'm exempted from troubles in this world?? Seriously?
Or are you just saying this to make me look bad? I figure it's that, or, like so many do, you just like to share your low opinion of me.
Thinking it's important!
Much love!
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