Where is your sin?

[marks]

I understand perfectly. It does not change the fact that it is required that true believers continue to believe to the very end. Some people say it means you can't not believe to the very end. Others believe the true believer can choose not to believe to the very end. What is not in dispute is the believer really is a partaker of Christ in either case.

Actually, in the case of someone who does not continue, they were not a partaker, which is why they do not continue.

Again, read this along with John, they went our from us because they were not of us.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The trusting part is what I do in response to God's gracious gift of faith.

So then you see trust and faith as different from each other? I'm curious, in what way?

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

John wrote, that we might know that we have eternal life.

I think this is the disagreement between you and I.

Actually, that is not where the disagreement is between us. Every believing person has eternal life, and can know for sure that he has it. So there is no disagreement between us about that.

 

[marks]

Actually, that is not where the disagreement is between us. Every believing person has eternal life, and can know for sure that he has it. So there is no disagreement between us about that.

Well, I'm thinking about your idea about the one who "has" eternal life and loses it. That's not eternal life. And you don't know for certain, do you, if that possibility hangs out there.

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Well, I'm thinking about your idea about the one who "has" eternal life and loses it. That's not eternal life.

Why is that not eternal life? It was eternal before you had it, right?

1 John 1:2
...we proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father...
​

He will still be eternal even if you don't have him anymore.

And you don't know for certain, do you, if that possibility hangs out there.

Everyone who believes, whether they are able to stop believing or not, can know for certain that they have eternal life. As you pointed out yourself, John wrote 1 John "so that you may know that you have eternal life". He explains that we know that we are saved because "anyone born of God does not keep on sinning" 1 John 5:18. The changed life testifies that we are born again and have eternal life in us.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

In your view, you must continue to believe so you can continue TO BE saved. You keep your self saved by keeping yourself believing.

I think the correct argument is if you let the word of the gospel remain in you, you also will remain in the Son and the Father.

24 As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He Himself made to us: eternal life.1 John 2:24-25
​

The important point being taught by John here is that you let the incorruptible seed of the gospel remain in you, and if you do, you will remain in the Son and the Father and have eternal life (Jesus). But we've made it all about if it's possible or not for the seed of the gospel to not remain in the believer, completely missing the important point, which is to have the word that we heard in the beginning remain in us. Many Christians call that a works gospel.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

So then you see trust and faith as different from each other?

Yes, I do.

I'm curious, in what way?

Hebrews 11:1 says faith is the proof, or conviction of something that you can't see. You have to know something really is true before you can trust in it. In the case of the gospel, God shows people that the gospel they can't see is true. That's the call of God. But people then have to decide if they're going to retain the truth God has shown them and trust in it, or cast it away in a choice to not believe it.

Faith = knowing something is true. Believing = putting your trust in what you know is true. The believer is the one who retains and trusts in the word of faith he has received from God about the truthfulness of the gospel. The unbeliever is the one who casts the word of faith he has received from God away in a decision to not believe it. Only the person who lets the word of the gospel remain in them remains in the Son and the Father and has the promise of eternal life. Only the believing person has eternal life.

 

[marks]

Faith = knowing something is true. Believing = putting your trust in what you know is true.

OK, I was asking about trust, I guess you can throw belief into the mix. But it sounds like you are making the distinction between verb and noun forms, not in meaning. And looking at the Greek, are you finding different words used?

Much love!

 

[marks]

There was a fellow I once knew, he liked to ask people this question . . .

Have you been born again long enough to be certain that you are?

I think that is an excellent question!

Much love!

 

[marks]

The important point being taught by John here is that you let the incorruptible seed of the gospel remain in you, and if you do, you will remain in the Son and the Father and have eternal life (Jesus).

You make it sound like you think you control whether or not the Holy Spirit remains in you after you are reborn. When His Word comes to you, let it remain, and it will remain forever!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Everyone who believes, whether they are able to stop believing or not, can know for certain that they have eternal life.

This sentence negates its own meaning within itself.

Eternal life is not like terrestrial life. You can commit terrestrial suicide. What makes you think you have any ability or opportunity to commit "celestial suicide"?

Life that ends is not eternal.

Faith is not manufactured by you moment by moment. God does that.

Doctrines which need to be understood to really get a grasp on this are justification and renewing the mind.

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

OK, I was asking about trust, I guess you can throw belief into the mix.

That's what believing is......trusting God. Believing is not just knowing something is true. That's faith. Faith comes from God as a gift. Believing is when you take what you know is true and place your trust in it. You do that.

But it sounds like you are making the distinction between verb and noun forms....

Not necessarily, but that's a good place to start. Faith is a thing. Believing is a verb. Though that's not a hard and fast rule.

....not in meaning. And looking at the Greek, are you finding different words used?

No, you won't learn much through a pure word study. Just look at how the secular world throws the terms 'faith' and 'believe' around. The Bible does the same thing. Context and intent are the rule of interpretation here. Faith is the supernatural ability to know something is true. That comes from God, entirely at his discretion, according to his mercy. Believing is you then trusting in the thing you know to be true. You do that. God gives us the faith....to believe.

Justification occurs when you believe in what faith has shown you to be true. I think many people take false comfort in thinking that just knowing the gospel is true saves them. No, it's when you trust in the gospel you know to be true, that's when salvation occurs. Took me about 4 years to finally give in and trust in the gospel that God was showing me is true through the testimony of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

This sentence negates its own meaning within itself.

That's because you are defining 'eternal life' in the only way you know how to......the OSAS way. It's not the only way to understand 'eternal life'.

 

[marks]

No, you won't learn much through a pure word study. Just look at how the secular world throws the terms 'faith' and 'believe' around. The Bible does the same thing.

You are thinking that God is as fast and loose with His vocabulary as what you are used to hearing in the world?

I don't think that for a moment!!

And you won't learn much from examining every place word is used? Oh my!

So maybe I'm understanding better the differences between us.

Much love!

 

[marks]

That's because you are defining 'eternal life' in the only way you know how to......the OSAS way. It's not the only way to understand 'eternal life'.

Eternal life that ends. OK. I suppose you are thinking "aionios" life refers to "quality" and not "quantity"?

I like Young's translation of that word, "age-during", I think that's very accurate.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Justification occurs when you believe in what faith has shown you to be true.

How would you define "justification"? How does it relate to sin? How does it relate to the nature of our being as God's children?

Much love!

 

[marks]

you are defining 'eternal life' in the only way you know how to......the OSAS way.

Forget about all your thoughts of "Intellectual Dishonesty", stick to the point.

You put words in my mouth and you are not correct about it. We need to be able to do better that that to be sure we understand what the Writer is saying.

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Forget about all your thoughts of "Intellectual Dishonesty", stick to the point.

I'm not saying your understanding is dishonest. I'm saying it's too narrow.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Eternal life that ends. OK. I suppose you are thinking "aionios" life refers to "quality" and not "quantity"?

I like Young's translation of that word, "age-during", I think that's very accurate.

Much love!

Jesus is eternal life. He lasts forever and ever and ever.

 

[marks]

Jesus is eternal life. He lasts forever and ever and ever.

And He gives to us eternal life, and we will never die, because He always lives.

Much love!