Which major Christian church in the U.S. is closest to the truth?

[Grailhunter]

Heb 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Gen 17:1
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Perfect:

Gen 6:9
These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
Job 1:1
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.
Mat 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

What does it mean to be perfect in God's eyes?

Abram walked with God. Noah walked with God, Job feared God.

So would that mean to be perfect is to walk with and fear God?

So by he , meaning Christ has perfected for ever those that are sanctified or set apart, consecrated, dedicated to God,
then those, meaning the sanctified will forever walk with and fear God.

And Enoch walked with God, and was not, for God took him.

That's how I understand it.
Is there another interpretation @Grailhunter ?

Hugs

Well it is a little complicated.
I have actually heard this explanation from a female professor at Cambridge University and a South Baptist preacher.
This here is the kicker.....
Mat 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
I am thinking you noticed this is a little odd.
No one can be perfect much less perfect as Yahweh. But for Yahweh to have any relationship with us, we have to be perfect, without a single sin. That is we have never sinned in our whole life. In the Old Testament in the Holy of Holies there was a veil that separated Yahweh from people. Because if anyone but the priest came to close, He would kill them. Yahweh has zero tolerance for sin.

Webster's definition of Grace....
Is the unmerited favor of God grace or Grace?

I think in general in the scriptures grace is defined as favor or love.
Yeshua forgives us because He loves us, but that is not Grace.
I believe Grace is an event, not a being or an emotion.

When Yeshua passed on the cross the veil in the Temple tore in two, I think that was because of Grace.
We were no longer separated from Yahweh. No further need for the Holy of Holies.
Grace made our reconciliation with Yahweh possible.
How? Yahweh has zero tolerance for sin.....that is what separated us to begin with.
The phrase "saved by Grace" has implications. For us to be in Heaven we have to be perfect without sin. Even in Heaven Yahweh has zero tolerance for sin. So in effect we are saved by Grace, because if it weren't for Grace we could not go to Heaven.

Yeshua's passing on the cross did not change Yahweh.
The tearing of the veil did not change Yahweh.
The New Covenant did not change Yahweh.
The New Covenant did not make us sinless, we still sin.
So how can Yahweh stand to associate with us?

We are changed.
Yahweh turned all authority over us to Yeshua. He turned our sins over to Yeshua.
And Grace, the blood of Yeshua acts like a spiritual white cloak that covers our sins and Yahweh does not see them. So as far as Yahweh is concerned, we stand before Him in Heaven sinless.

Of course, the best of us sin. And that is between us and Yeshua and our sins are forgiven by Yeshua if we ask for forgiveness.......

And there is another element that has to do with Baptism. You might ask yourself if Yeshua forgives our sins what is the purpose of Baptism? Before we are Christians the sins we commit are directly a transgression against Yahweh. Baptism is for the remission of sins. When you come up out of that water, as far as Yahweh is concern you are born....we call it born again. That past person and the sins that person committed never happened, that person never existed. At that point your sins are between you and Yeshua. And you ask forgiveness and He forgives you. So this is how we are perfected by Grace.

 

[Marvelloustime]

and now look at it . It has grown MUCH worse as the inclusive god has made great inroads into all houses
and its leaven has swollen them fuller and fu ller , till even now they add the greatest sin of all sins
UNBELIEF . JESUS is now being DENIED outright by even mouth . As
more and more join hands with a lie . A lie brakelite and their new
peace plan has denied the PEACE plan of GOD . WHICH is and was TO BELIEVE ON JESUS THE CHRIST
thus to be reconciled to GOD and have peace WITH GOD .
SO conclusion . ONLY an anti christ and many anti christs would b ring in
this interfiath interreligious ecumiencal LIE and cliam ITS THE PEACE PLAN OF GOD .
SOUNDS to me like its A peace plan all right , BUT NOT OF GOD but rather of ..........
Who by PEACE shall DESTROY MANY . that be the dark one .

@amigo de christo

 

[Ziggy]

Well it is a little complicated.
I have actually heard this explanation from a female professor at Cambridge University and a South Baptist preacher.
This here is the kicker.....
Mat 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
I am thinking you noticed this is a little odd.
No one can be perfect much less perfect as Yahweh. But for Yahweh to have any relationship with us, we have to be perfect, without a single sin. That is we have never sinned in our whole life. In the Old Testament in the Holy of Holies there was a veil that separated Yahweh from people. Because if anyone but the priest came to close, He would kill them. Yahweh has zero tolerance for sin.

Webster's definition of Grace....
Is the unmerited favor of God grace or Grace?

I think in general in the scriptures grace is defined as favor or love.
Yeshua forgives us because He loves us, but that is not Grace.
I believe Grace is an event, not a being or an emotion.

When Yeshua passed on the cross the veil in the Temple tore in two, I think that was because of Grace.
We were no longer separated from Yahweh. No further need for the Holy of Holies.
Grace made our reconciliation with Yahweh possible.
How? Yahweh has zero tolerance for sin.....that is what separated us to begin with.
The phrase "saved by Grace" has implications. For us to be in Heaven we have to be perfect without sin. Even in Heaven Yahweh has zero tolerance for sin. So in effect we are saved by Grace, because if it weren't for Grace we could not go to Heaven.

Yeshua's passing on the cross did not change Yahweh.
The tearing of the veil did not change Yahweh.
The New Covenant did not change Yahweh.
The New Covenant did not make us sinless, we still sin.
So how can Yahweh stand to associate with us?

We are changed.
Yahweh turned all authority over us to Yeshua. He turned our sins over to Yeshua.
And Grace, the blood of Yeshua acts like a spiritual white cloak that covers our sins and Yahweh does not see them. So as far as Yahweh is concerned, we stand before Him in Heaven sinless.

Of course, the best of us sin. And that is between us and Yeshua and our sins are forgiven by Yeshua if we ask for forgiveness.......

And there is another element that has to do with Baptism. You might ask yourself if Yeshua forgives our sins what is the purpose of Baptism? Before we are Christians the sins we commit are directly a transgression against Yahweh. Baptism is for the remission of sins. When you come up out of that water, as far as Yahweh is concern you are born....we call it born again. That past person and the sins that person committed never happened, that person never existed. At that point your sins are between you and Yeshua. And you ask forgiveness and He forgives you. So this is how we are perfected by Grace.

I agree with everything you wrote.
But I don't think it's meant to be complicated.
As far as Grace also agree it is an event, a period of time , a covering, it has a lot of applications depending.
We are in the Age of Grace for example is a period of God placing his hand over our faces so we can't see his displeasure.
Because no one can see God and live. If perchance His face was a reflection as a mirror of ourselves, if we could see ourselves in His face, as we are and not covered by the grace that comes from the Lord, a pardon, a veil as it were, not that it stops us from seeing Him but he gives us grace so we don't have to see ourselves.

When He looks at us when we are born again, He sees himself in us.

I have serious brain fog today. I wish I could participate more in this conversation.
I thank you for raising the question.
Let's do more ok?
Hugs

 

[Soyeong]

Yeshua did not teach the 3 in 1 God formula for the Trinity and of course the word Trinity is not in the Bible. What Yahweh taught was that Yeshua was His only begotten Son and said He was very pleased with Him. Yeshua said that the Father loves Him. Yeshua said that Yahweh was His Father over 50 times. He said that He did not do his will but the will of the Father. Yeshua said that He did not know the end of time but Yahweh did. At no time does anyone in the Bible say that Yahweh and Yeshua and Holy Spirit are one. Yeshua explained the oneness concept. Yeshua said that Yahweh was His God and He prayed to Him. The Apostles called Yahweh God and Yeshua Lord. The scriptures say that Yeshua ascended to the Father and sit on His right hand.

What does that have to do with the post that you were responding to?

 

[Grailhunter]

What does that have to do with the post that you were responding to?

Soyeong said:
Like I said, following what Christ taught is for Christians. It is contradictory for someone to want to be a Christian while not wanting to follow what Christ taught.

What He taught and what He did not teach.

 

[Soyeong]

Soyeong said:
Like I said, following what Christ taught is for Christians. It is contradictory for someone to want to be a Christian while not wanting to follow what Christ taught.

What He taught and what He did not teach.

Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Torah by word and by example.

 

[Grailhunter]

Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Torah by word and by example.

Ya know there is a reason that a good Theologian has to wear many hats. Besides knowing the scriptures he has to be a historian, linguist, anthropologist, amongst other things.
We read the scriptures and do our best to understand them in the modern sense, but to get their true meaning you have to consider the circumstances and conditions and scenario of the time period in which they were written.

So what do you think Yeshua should have preached during period of time that was still the Old Covenant.
Preaching the Torah was correct. Preaching obedience to the Mosaic Law was correct.
At that point they were practicing polygamy and selling their daughters as sex slaves. Sacrificing animals in the Temple on the Saturday Jewish Sabbath.

Even after Yeshua's passing the Jews and Jewish-Christians were doing a lot of this stuff. Neither the Old or New Testament put a moratorium on polygamy, concubinage, and slavery. Yes the Torah supported and regulated polygamy, concubinage, and slavery. And there are reasons why Yeshua did not speak against polygamy, and concubinage, and slavery. Could have, should have Yeshua told those Jews that had fives wives that if they wanted to be saved and be a Christian, they would have to divorce 4 of their wives?

And then things changed.....Yeshua converted Paul. Paul and eventually Peter taught that Christians are not under the Law....none of them. The Gentile-Christians were taught the morals of Yeshua. The Gentile converts brought in the custom of wedding ceremonies and they worshipped on Sunday calling it the Lord's Day. Now the Gentile-Pagans had some pretty weird relationship practices, but they did not sell their children as sex slaves. And they did not practice polygamy so the Gentile-Christians did not have much of this going on, put enough that Paul had to stipulate that church leaders could only or had to be the husband of one wife.

So things change and to understand the scriptures it is good to consider that.

 

[Brakelite]

That quotation proves nothing except that Ellen White knew how to use biblical words.

The issue is not whether she sometimes wrote about Christ, grace, faith, or imputed righteousness. False teachers often mix truth with error. That is what makes them dangerous. A cup of poison does not become safe because most of it is water.

You claimed opponents offer “accusations without evidence,” but the evidence is in the doctrines themselves. Scripture does not teach an investigative judgment beginning in 1844. Scripture does not make seventh-day Sabbath observance a test of Christian faithfulness. Scripture does not authorize Ellen White as a prophetic interpreter of the Bible.

Paul did not say to accept a teacher because some of his words sound orthodox. He said, “Though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed” ~Galatians 1:8.

The apostles taught that Christ “by one offering hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified” ~Hebrews 10:14. They taught, “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday…or of the sabbath days” ~Colossians 2:16. Ellen White and Adventism add doctrines and obligations that the apostles did not teach.

Quoting one carefully selected paragraph does not erase those errors. Stop asking people to judge Ellen White by her best-sounding statements. Judge every doctrine she taught by Scripture. When that is done honestly, her claimed prophetic authority collapses.

Are you so seriously prejudiced that you believe Adventists, for the last 160 years, glossed over or were blind to Ellen White's duplicity as you describe? That we have to search through thousands of manuscripts and dozens of books and countless articles to squirrel out one or two legit biblical examples of bible truth in the midst of a mass of gross error?

Allow me to give you an opportunity to prove your theory.
Read her most published and most printed book, Steps to Christ. Surely in one of her books you will find a lot of error right? Or how about The Story of Redemption?

And regarding the investigative judgment. Answer me a few questions.
Do judges investigate the lives of those who stand before them accused of crimes?
Why would God not do the same when in Daniel there are several texts describing a court sitting on heaven?
Does that court sitting take place before Christ comes, or after?
If not before, how then do the angels know who to harvest and who to leave?
Are not the fruits a sign of a ripe harvest... are the fruits taken at harvest, or later?
When is the harvest?

You answer the above questions honestly and you cannot help but conclude that there must be a pre-advent judgment.

Final question. Where does the judgment take place between the sheep and the goats, upon which decisions are made regarding eternal destiny? On earth, or in heaven? If in heaven, how do the goats gain entry?
And when? surely it must be prior to the second coming at which time is the harvest and the resurrection of the saints.
"Behold I come quickly, to give every man the reward according to his works". When were those decisions made regarding such rewards?

 

[bdavidc]

Are you so seriously prejudiced that you believe Adventists, for the last 160 years, glossed over or were blind to Ellen White's duplicity as you describe? That we have to search through thousands of manuscripts and dozens of books and countless articles to squirrel out one or two legit biblical examples of bible truth in the midst of a mass of gross error?

Allow me to give you an opportunity to prove your theory.
Read her most published and most printed book, Steps to Christ. Surely in one of her books you will find a lot of error right? Or how about The Story of Redemption?

And regarding the investigative judgment. Answer me a few questions.
Do judges investigate the lives of those who stand before them accused of crimes?
Why would God not do the same when in Daniel there are several texts describing a court sitting on heaven?
Does that court sitting take place before Christ comes, or after?
If not before, how then do the angels know who to harvest and who to leave?
Are not the fruits a sign of a ripe harvest... are the fruits taken at harvest, or later?
When is the harvest?

You answer the above questions honestly and you cannot help but conclude that there must be a pre-advent judgment.

Final question. Where does the judgment take place between the sheep and the goats, upon which decisions are made regarding eternal destiny? On earth, or in heaven? If in heaven, how do the goats gain entry?
And when? surely it must be prior to the second coming at which time is the harvest and the resurrection of the saints.
"Behold I come quickly, to give every man the reward according to his works". When were those decisions made regarding such rewards?

You are assuming what you need to prove. Yes, Scripture teaches judgment. No, Scripture does not teach an investigative judgment beginning in 1844. That date is not in Daniel 7, Matthew 25, Revelation 22, or anywhere else in the Bible.

God does not investigate people because He lacks information. “All things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do” ~Hebrews 4:13. “The Lord knoweth them that are his” ~2 Timothy 2:19. Christ already knows His sheep ~John 10:14.

Daniel 7 describes God judging evil kingdoms and vindicating the saints. It says nothing about Christ beginning a review of professing Christians in 1844.

The angels do not need an investigative judgment to know whom to gather. Christ sends them. “The Son of man shall send forth his angels” ~Matthew 13:41. They obey Him because He already knows who belongs to Him.

Matthew 25 also does not support your claim. It says, “When the Son of man shall come in his glory…then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory” ~Matthew 25:31. The judgment described there takes place when Christ comes. The goats do not enter heaven. That idea is not in the passage.

Revelation 22:12 says Christ brings His reward with Him. It does not say He began investigating believers in 1844. You are reading Adventist doctrine into the verse.

Hebrews is clear that Christ’s saving work is complete:

“By his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us” ~Hebrews 9:12.

“After he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God” ~Hebrews 10:12.

“By one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified” ~Hebrews 10:14.

That is a finished sacrifice and eternal redemption. It is not an unfinished process that required a new phase in 1844.

As for Steps to Christ, one book containing biblical language proves nothing about Ellen White’s prophetic authority. False teachers do not have to be wrong in every sentence. They only need to add doctrines God never taught.

You have proved that the Bible teaches judgment. Nobody denied that. You have not proved the investigative judgment, the year 1844, or Ellen White’s prophetic authority from Scripture.

Those are Adventist claims, not biblical teaching.